Defective hone?

Well, I bought a two sided "Winner" hone the other day for honing my straight. Razor came in first so I honed with my present stuff. Took a great edge, passed the HHT and gave me a "BFS" shave. Didn't pull, either. :D

...Then the "real" hone came in. I lapped it, and noticed it had quite a few specks in the surface, almost like concrete, and was dull white/grey. :dropjaw: I had seen a picture of one before, and it was a very even smooth texture, and bright white fine side. I tried it out. Very poor edge, dull, scratched. It was much worse than my soft Arkansas, and took a while to get my edge back again. (I do use the Ark. in a way that allows for a better edge than most will get, but the edge as sharpened in the normal way was still much better.)

So, did I get a dud? Are some stones like this?:shrug:

Thanks,
Chaz

Do you have pictures and what is the name of the hone?

The name of the hone is "WINNER HONE", and it is a double sided hone. I tried lapping it some more on 2000 grit sandpaper, and the edge it produced did improve. So the specks on the surface are indeed harder-than-steel inclusions. So with more work on the sandpaper, I may be able to get it to make a good shaving edge. Odd thing is it seems the hone is fine grit other than the specks.

Has anyone else experienced this on other hones before?

And here are the pictures, the inclusions are the little black dots. Several large ones can be seen in the picture, and there are many more smaller ones that can't be seen.

-Chaz

I just lapped it a bit with a medium India stone and tried it. Turns out I just started with a sharp knife. It dulled it, and although stropping did help, it was still a poor edge.

-Chaz

The Winner Hone is an excellent hone and can create great edges. I'm concerned that you might have trashed the surface when you lapped it. Now that you have lapped it, all you can do is to try to lap it with progressively more fine sandpaper in an attempt to try to restore the surface.

I don't think it is appropriate for you to try to sell this hone in this section of the forum.

I have never seen the need to lap a barbers hone.

Utopian,

That's what I had seen, the Winner's that people here had posted pictures of all looked uniform and they said the edges produced were good. Mine did come to me like this, with the odd surface and undefined fine/coarse layers. I thought it was just dirty and lapping would fix it, but so far it hasn't. I have seen other hones on eBay that looked like this, so don't know what the deal is with it. I did try it before lapping and it gave a poor edge. It is definitely not the lapping, as the inclusions are part of the hone itself.

I was just joking...I don't believe anyone really wants this one! I thought the part about it being a "God-forsaken greasy rock" kind of hinted to that.:shrug: Anyway, hope I didn't offend anyone, I went back and deleted it. :ziplip:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nun2sharp

I have never seen the need to lap a barbers hone.

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I only lapped this one because of the inclusions, I thought they may have just been on the surface, and I could lap them away.

-Chaz

I can't recall who it was but a member in the past who was knowledgeable on barber hones said that some of them break down with age. Dry out, crack .... what have you. Other than seeing the name mentioned I'm not familiar with the Winner from hands on experience. Tough luck. Hope it comes around with more lapping.

I have seen such inclusions in lapped barber hones before. Honestly, I cannot explain them as the abrasive grit and binding material should pretty much be homogenous throughout the hone. After the hone was made, it would have been lapped at the factory and perhaps another treatment was done to provide a proper glazed surface. I would suspect the lapping done prior to your purchase of the hone might have trashed that glazed surface except for one thing. That is, I had a trashed Winner Hone and I had to lap it and it came out fine.

Maybe you just got a dud, but you might still be able to rescue it with further lapping.

Sorry I missed that you weren't serious about selling it. I'm probably taking things more literally due to lack of sleep the last two nights. Chicago O'Hare and I just don't get along very well.

Not a winning hone at all :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nun2sharp

I have never seen the need to lap a barbers hone.

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Unless you buy one NOS most need lapping before you can use them for honing razors as they have suffered abuse by their previous owners. Just look at ebay listings: most have a scratched surface.

They are SOB to lap.

Hi,

+1 on JimmyHADs comments on some barber hones fairing badly with age.

I have a Royal Hone by US Abrasive Products Inc; this hone is now so soft, you can break bits of the edges with your fingernail !

A real shame as the hone was in almost perfect condition :cry:

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ

Could it be that the fine side is just not as fine as you're used to for a finisher, e.g. 8-10k? Although if it's coarser than that perhaps long ago someone put the wrong stone in the 'Winner' box, just like how an Escher ended up in a Carborundum box.

Imo if the hone cuts with a uniform enough scratch pattern it's not a dud, you'll just have to find the right place for it in your progression.

Utopian,

Interesting, I wonder if they did start just giving the hones a fine grit coating at some time. You say you had one that lapped out? Did it have the same weird inclusions?

-No worries, that would take it's toll on me, too. :)

SprooseMoose,

Yep, I call it the Loser Hone. ;)

Jimmy,

Odd that they decompose over time. This is not that though, oddly enough it seems it was made this way, as the inclusions are a part of the hone but the rest seems fine.

That's a weird one Russ. Had to be a bad feeling taking it out of the box and finding that out!

Piet,

I have so far been bevel setting on a soft Arkansas and honing with Simichrome polish on paper and then going to plain newspaper, then a cotton belt, then a leather belt strop. It's sadly not a coarse stone, just a fine one with large chunks of something that make it cut like a razor hone and finish like a chunk of fill gravel (with a very non-uniform scratch pattern), not a good combination! (Especially since I have found a trick that lets me get a mirror polish edge with a soft Arkansas!) I am saving up for an eBay Coticule and I am about to get some green honing compound. You got lucky if you found an Escher in an old Carborundum box! :tu

"...Hey! I got an Escher!...."
"...I got a rock..." ;)

Thanks again everyone,
Chaz

(Yes I know that the Escher is a rock, but that Charlie Brown line was just too tempting. :D)

I just noticed that SprooseMoose's "avatar" is Charlie Brown! :) I didn't notice it before.

I only found the ebay auction of that Escher which was labeled as Carborundum, someone else here bought it.

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Originally Posted by Piet

I only found the ebay auction of that Escher which was labeled as Carborundum, someone else here bought it.

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Oh heck, are you sure someone on SRP bought it? Do you have any idea who it was?

Often ebay sellers will misrepresent a razor in another brand of razor box. I argue that a Timex in a Rolex box is NOT a Rolex. Oddly, in the case of that Escher in a Carborundum box, it was a case of a Rolex in a Timex box being claimed to be an extra rare and valuable Rolex by virtue of the box.
It isn't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I have seen such inclusions in lapped barber hones before. Honestly, I cannot explain them as the abrasive grit and binding material should pretty much be homogenous throughout the hone.
...snip....

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Most barber hones are fired ceramics and
differer from bricks by the care that the
mud has been classified. One of the tricks
used to make a dimensionally stable product
that does not crack or warp while drying
and firing is to mix ground previously fired or partly
fired product back into the mix. The grain size of
such grog does not mater as long as it is prepared
from equally fine material.

These would looks like what you are seeing.

What Is Grog - Definition of Grog in Pottery

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChazH

Jimmy,

Odd that they decompose over time. This is not that though, oddly enough it seems it was made this way, as the inclusions are a part of the hone but the rest seems fine.

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IIRC the Punjab razor hone had a leaflet recommending not to expose the hone to direct sunlight. Some hones are fired but for other hones some sort of synthetic glue is used. That glue will decompose over time.

Odd about the Escher in the Carborundum box being advertised as more rare and valuable!

Tom,

Thanks, that looks like that is what I am seeing. That also explains why it looks just like a lapped brick.

I just saw this on eBay; "VELVET" Straight Razor Sharpening Hone/ Water Stone - eBay (item 260641518407 end time Jul-31-10 14:06:43 PDT) Looks the same as mine.

Kees,

Very interesting that sunlight would break down the binder!

I got a laugh out of this eBay hone; LOT OF 2 VINTAGE STRAIGHT RAZOR SHARPENERS LEATHER HONE - eBay (item 160460182818 end time Aug-01-10 18:10:57 PDT) It states it has no inclusions- yet is covered in them! :roflmao

Oh, well, I guess I'll keep holding out for that deal on a Coticule or similar. I'll try lapping this hone a bit more, but I think it's a losing battle, kind of like lapping a brick to razor hone status.

Thanks again,
Chaz

Not all spots are inclusions.

Yeah, but the first has the same shiny black spots that are inclusions on mine, and looks almost exactly the same. The second could just be color spots, but all I have seen without the shiny inclusions were a solid color (Like Swaty hones, etc.). If the stone's mixture is homogeneous the color should also be homogeneous. It could be something on the surface of the stone, but that kind of thinking is why I now have the Loser Hone. :)

Regards,
Chaz