Japanese natural progression from bevel to polish

I've got this hankering to develop a natural J-nat progression, as above.

I'm looking at a Bisui-do (bevel), blue Aoto (sharpening), then kiita-asagi mix (finishing polish), with the slurry progression Jim advises.

I'\'ve got the kiita-asagi already. Will it be too much of a jump from the aoto?

Also, those more experienced than I seem to feel that there are no good bevel-setting J-nats. Has anyone tried the Binsui-do for this purpose?

Don't point out that natural stones are unique and have to be worked with; I understand and accept this. But does the general strategy seem sound?

Why am I at this point? I got bored with DEs after a few months, moved on to straights; got bored with artifical hones after a few months, moved to coticules, sort of figured those out; and now I'm looking for a new challenge.:banghead:

Any advice (other than spending my time in more fruitful and socially valuable pursuits) gratefully accepted.

I'm sure the jump from the Aoto to the Kiita will be doable with a bit of slurry, but the Nakayama I'm sending you will fill the gap nicely. The aoto should get you up to around a 4k to 5k level, and that nakayama will get you up to around the 9 or 10k level, and then the Kiita to finish. Those should all be quick and easy transitions to make.

At the bevel setting range, I have no idea. I had done some that weren't far off a bevel on the Aoto I used to have, but I would definitely want something better suited to the task.

From what I've read a slurry created with a Botan nagura can be aggressive enough to set a bevel. I recently purchases a Botan, but haven't really tested it since I don't have any razors in need of a bevel re-do.

But after the bevel is set, you could just use a few different slurries on your finisher to simulate a progression. I've used a Mejiro slurry on a Nakayama after the DMT 1200 and in a reasonable amount of time (don't remember exactly, I'm sorry) the scratch pattern was replaced fully by a consistent haze. Then working up a slurry on the Nakayama (created with another small piece or diamond hone), hone on that final polishing slurry. There are other naguras to help with the progression, hence why I recently purchased a couple. I have a Botan, Tenjyou, and Mejiro; in order of reported fineness.

So although I can't help you out with a stone to set a bevel, you can just use your finishing hone with progressive slurries. Definitely not the only way to do it, just an option. :D

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Originally Posted by StraightRazorDave

From what I've read a slurry created with a Botan nagura can be aggressive enough to set a bevel. I recently purchases a Botan, but haven't really tested it since I don't have any razors in need of a bevel re-do.

But after the bevel is set, you could just use a few different slurries on your finisher to simulate a progression. I've used a Mejiro slurry on a Nakayama after the DMT 1200 and in a reasonable amount of time (don't remember exactly, I'm sorry) the scratch pattern was replaced fully by a consistent haze. Then working up a slurry on the Nakayama (created with another small piece or diamond hone), hone on that final polishing slurry. There are other naguras to help with the progression, hence why I recently purchased a couple. I have a Botan, Tenjyou, and Mejiro; in order of reported fineness.

So although I can't help you out with a stone to set a bevel, you can just use your finishing hone with progressive slurries. Definitely not the only way to do it, just an option. :D

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May I ask where you found the naguras? I can't seem to find any authenticated ones.

I had a hard time finding them too. I found them here Naguras & Fingerstones. It doesn't look like he has much left...but the nagura sold there are the authentic ones since they have that Aasano red stamp.

The Aoto-finisher jump is not at all that rough, in my experience. Aoto are fast but gentle, they don't leave much damage to trouble you in finishing, in my experience.

In re the botan slurry, in my experience it is POSSIBLE to set a bevel but not RATIONAL. It takes way too long.

I've set a bevel on a stone that was labeled Arashiyama but looks/feels very much like a Binsui...again, doable but I didn't enjoy it.

A good natural bevel setter is still something I'm looking for, let me know if you find one.

It is such a problem that nobody-as far as I know- uses them. Even in the middle they are not so great. Sure I'd like to have a good natural middle stone; (or a rough one too).
But not to the tune of 2-400+usd

There's something about aoto that makes me want to apply pressure and the ones I have are already crazy soft and slurrying. After the stone becomes really wet and soft-sooner or later I catch the edge in the stone.

None of this is to prevent you from asking those who sell good stones what they got

I'm still looking for a good aoto to use for my razors, and single bevel Japanese kitchen knives.

At the moment I'm happy with my stones, Ohira Tomae, Hideri Namito, Nakayama Asagi, as they do all I need them to do on good razor edges. Even small nicks are fixable with these stones. If the damage is to great or I'm bevel setting I use the Shapton GS 1k to 3k. They get the edge prepped just fine for the J-nats to take over and maintain them for ever :p

My nat Aoto is actually pretty hard stone, it raises very little slurry even with a knife.
As far as natural progression, there are natural stones that will nicely cover the 1k-8k range, then you can get something that goes to ~20k , then your finisher.
Your current set up should also work nicely IMHO.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

My nat Aoto is actually pretty hard stone, it raises very little slurry even with a knife.
As far as natural progression, there are natural stones that will nicely cover the 1k-8k range, then you can get something that goes to ~20k , then your finisher.
Your current set up should also work nicely IMHO.

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was that from luck or did you buy it special?

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Originally Posted by kevint

was that from luck or did you buy it special?

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I would say the batch they have now is like that, I got it from Japanwoodworker for my knives, but its actually a very good stone.

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Originally Posted by StraightRazorDave

I had a hard time finding them too. I found them here Naguras & Fingerstones. It doesn't look like he has much left...but the nagura sold there are the authentic ones since they have that Aasano red stamp.

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Since getting the above tip, I've contacted Maxim at the address above, and he has been extremely helpful. Asano-stamped Botan, Mejiro, and Tenjyou are on their way and he's making an effort to find a Koma for me. He got a new shipment in yesterday, but these stones are rare and trickle in to him in small amounts, so anyone who is looking might want to contact him sooner rather than later. Not trying to promote anything here, just trying to help out members who have found obtaining these naguras as difficult as I did.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

My nat Aoto is actually pretty hard stone, it raises very little slurry even with a knife.
As far as natural progression, there are natural stones that will nicely cover the 1k-8k range, then you can get something that goes to ~20k , then your finisher.
Your current set up should also work nicely IMHO.

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Stefan
where is the 1 k level Natural stone?
i bought one reddish color should 800 level . in reality you could use only for knifes not for razors.
if you can show site etc i would appreciate.

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Stefan
where is the 1 k level Natural stone?
i bought one reddish color should 800 level . in reality you could use only for knifes not for razors.
if you can show site etc i would appreciate.

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Sham,
I was not clear I meant to cover the range between 1k and 8k not to set the bevel and finish @ 8k level. I am not aware of a natural stone for razors that can set bevels as fast as a synthetic can.