Pre-coticule synthetic for bevel repair?

I'm in the market for a new hone...hehehehe (the giggle of a budding HAD casualty).

I've been using dilu/unicot methods with a natural BBW/Coti (with a fast cutting coti side) followed by a slower cutting (but higher quality) select grade coti. If there are no huge problems with the bevel or edge, the results are great and it doesn't take all that much time. BUT...if the edge has minor chips, or the bevel needs serious correcting, it can take a very, very long time to get things looking and feeling pretty.

I've got a 1000 grit suehiro (sold under Robert Larson Tools label), but it can be a little too aggressive. I read a thread where Lynn found a Naniwa 5000 sufficient for most bevel setting, but I figure my BBW/coti can do what a 5000 grit can do. I'm leaning toward a 3000, because it would only leave a narrow gap in approximate grit from that to the BBW.

So the question is: will a Naniwa 3000 be sufficient for minor repairs, or should I go lower?

I have the 1k and 3k Naniwa and I would say if you're looking to get chips out the 1k would definately be the way to go.

3k-5k will work fine if you have an Ok bevel already but if you're looking to go past that and set a totally new bevel or get into edge repair its got to be a 1k IMO. You could do it on 3k, but it would take you a lot longer.

I usually use synthetic stones right up until the final finisher where I swap to a natural but when I hone on my coti/BBW combo, I go from the 1k Naniwa to the coti with a heavy slurry, then the BBW with a medium slurry then the coti with a light slurry and finish on the coti with just water. That seems to work very well and leaves a very nice edge.

To be honest its worth investing in a DMT 325 diamond plate if you're going to get a Naniwa of any grit, just to lap it periodically. This then serves nicely as a chip removing device.

You can easily go from a DMT 325 to a 1K Nani to BBW with slurry and then on.

You would not NEED the 3K in this case.

Thanks--I wasn't sure if it would be too big a leap going from the 1K to the coti, but as long as I know it's worked for somebody I'll give it a shot. And great idea about the DMT for lapping. I've been using sandpaper, but I suppose I'd come out ahead in the long run as far as cost with the DMT, and it can do double-duty for serious damage. I like it!

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Originally Posted by QuinnFlint

Thanks--I wasn't sure if it would be too big a leap going from the 1K to the coti, but as long as I know it's worked for somebody I'll give it a shot. And great idea about the DMT for lapping. I've been using sandpaper, but I suppose I'd come out ahead in the long run as far as cost with the DMT, and it can do double-duty for serious damage. I like it!

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The DMT can certainly 'double-duty' as you say. I think many here use it for that. And you can definitely go from a 1K to a coti, although its not always ideal. Read my signature and you'll undertstand that a coti is not a known stone.

IF your coti can perform at least as a medium cutter as far as cotis are concerned, then its entirely possible. Not always ideal, but some swear by it. It's nice to have a 3K synthetic as an alternative honing setup. Different stones work better for different razors.

I don't bother using coticules for anything other than 8K + now and kept my smallest 4'' as a finisher. My other two which were 7'', I sold as I didn't really need or use them. That 4'' as it happens is a bevel setter as well as an awesome finisher in the 10K range. Great little vintage coti!

+1 on the 325 DMT, I have on for lapping and edge repair as Scipio says. Good stone!

I used to do all my honing with a King 1k (cheapest I found) and a BBW/coti. The jump is definitely not too large from the 1k to either the BBW with slurry or the Coti with slurry.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the Naniwa SS 1k - it's a little softer than I like, so it dishes a little more than I like. I prefer the Norton 1k, DMT1.2k, or the Naniwa Chosera 1k (those are in price order...).

Another plus 1 on the DMT325 for lapping. It's a great tool to have, and will save you lots of money in the long run. I have read some guys will take out chips on their low grit DMT's too (coarse, med, or fine), but personally I don't like to do that, even if they are relatively large, and if the chips are big I'll just pass on the razor (large, relatively large, and big are all subjective terms).

The Naniwa 5k or 3k CAN set a bevel, but it will take a while. The only exception (that I've found) is for NOS/new razors. Typically, the "factory edge" on those is good enough that you can go right to the Naniwa 3k or 5k and then progress on up through your hones.

I definately agree about the Nani 1k, its a soft stone. The Shapton 1k is a much more aggressive bevel setter and a harder stone (all the Shapton on glass stones are I think) and if the Naniwa is taking ages or needs lapping all the time I tend to swap over to the Shapton.

I might have to invest in a 1200 DMT as well. I've had a few razors of late that could have used it!

Thanks for all the advice! I hear all kinds of great things about the Shaptons as far as uniformity and consistency of results, but right now I tend to like the feedback of a softer hone. Is it more like the feel of a DMT than the feel of a natural? I've gotten some good results with my DMT D8EE, but there's something about the way it handles that I just don't connect with, for lack of a better phrase.

Anyway, what I decided to try out is a Naniwa 2K, and I plan to get a DMT 325 for lapping and for the initial work on the $5 eBay specials before going to the 2K. Worst case scenario is that it doesn't work out well, and I have to restock my paypal account for a new hone. And I do not dread having to do this.

One other question...well, two: down at the local Highland Woodworking they have a 400-grit 8x2 EZE-LAP for $38 bucks. I think it's one-sided, where the DMT is two-sided, but for that price and how I'll use it, I'm okay with that. Questions: does an 8x2 give you a significant lapping advantage over a 6x2? Also, is DMT significantly better than EZE-LAP? Ever used one?

My bevel setter of choice out of many

Is still and always will be a Norton 1k it is still my "Run home to Mama stone"

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

My bevel setter of choice out of many

Is still and always will be a Norton 1k it is still my "Run home to Mama stone"

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I think it is hard to beat the consistent results and pricing of the Norton if you're looking for a bevel setter / repair hone.

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Originally Posted by QuinnFlint

Thanks for all the advice! I hear all kinds of great things about the Shaptons as far as uniformity and consistency of results, but right now I tend to like the feedback of a softer hone. Is it more like the feel of a DMT than the feel of a natural? I've gotten some good results with my DMT D8EE, but there's something about the way it handles that I just don't connect with, for lack of a better phrase.

Anyway, what I decided to try out is a Naniwa 2K, and I plan to get a DMT 325 for lapping and for the initial work on the $5 eBay specials before going to the 2K. Worst case scenario is that it doesn't work out well, and I have to restock my paypal account for a new hone. And I do not dread having to do this.

One other question...well, two: down at the local Highland Woodworking they have a 400-grit 8x2 EZE-LAP for $38 bucks. I think it's one-sided, where the DMT is two-sided, but for that price and how I'll use it, I'm okay with that. Questions: does an 8x2 give you a significant lapping advantage over a 6x2? Also, is DMT significantly better than EZE-LAP? Ever used one?

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If you are going to do your initial work on a DMT, the Naniwa 1k's softness would be no problem, because you'd not have nearly as much work to do on it. For me, it's just heavy work on the Naniwa 1k that I don't like. All personal preference, though.

I have never heard of an EZE-Lap, so I can't comment on that. With regards to size, I use a 6 inch DMTC for all my lapping. It was kind of annoying for some initial lappings, but it's no biggie for re-lappings. If I could go back in time... I actually don't know if I'd spend the extra money for the 8 inch...

If I recall correctly the EZE-Lap is a polychrystal and the DMT is a Monocrystal diamond. The eze-lap seems to break down faster than the DMT, ....supposedly. I have used the Eze-Lap, 400 & 1200, but I used them incorrectly as lapping plates. They became worthless very quickly.:rant:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

My bevel setter of choice out of many

Is still and always will be a Norton 1k it is still my "Run home to Mama stone"

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Glen, really, you are going to admit... you're a mama's boy? .......Just asking!
(as he runs like hell!) ;)

All kidding aside.... Nortons are probably the most "user friendly" hones out there.

So I bit the bullet and got a couple hones to round things out: a Naniwa 2000 and a Norton 4000/8000 combo. So now (for a blade badly in need of repair) I'm going from the Suehiro 1K to the Naniwa 2K, then the Norton 4K, then the BBW w/slurry, then the Norton 8K, then the yellow coti w/slurry, and then basically a dilucot on the coti. Great, consistent results. I have to say, the Norton really isn't overhyped--it's a great hone.

A question: I read somewhere that a Thuringian shouldn't be used after a coticule due to some difference in how each shapes the edge. Is this one of those coti/Thuringian myth or lore type things, or has anybody actually experienced it?

Now that is one complicated progression you're talking about. It's nice to have lots of hones, but you don't need to use them all every time. If I wer you, I'd probably go Suehiro 1k, Norton 4k, Norton 8k, coticule with water.

I don't know that you really need to use a 1k and a 2k - the 2k will refine the edge a bit, but the jump from 1k to 4k isn't, IMO, big enough to need to fill the gap with another hone.

The BBW is somewhat redundant if you have the Norton 8k, and the Norton 8k will do the job faster.

If you are going to use any slurry on the coticule after the Norton 8k, I wouldn't do any more than the "training" Glen talks about - a few very light laps with a very light slurry, as I understand it.

Anyway, it'll be fun for you to play around with your hones and see what works best for you.

There have been a few threads about Thurry after Coti, and the consensus seems to be that, in general, using a Thurry after a coti will benifit the edge. They are naturals, though, so there is no guarantee that your Thurry will be finer than your coti (though it seems very likely that it will be).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by QuinnFlint

I'm in the market for a new hone...hehehehe (the giggle of a budding HAD casualty).

I've been using dilu/unicot methods with a natural BBW/Coti (with a fast cutting coti side) followed by a slower cutting (but higher quality) select grade coti. If there are no huge problems with the bevel or edge, the results are great and it doesn't take all that much time. BUT...if the edge has minor chips, or the bevel needs serious correcting, it can take a very, very long time to get things looking and feeling pretty.

I've got a 1000 grit suehiro (sold under Robert Larson Tools label), but it can be a little too aggressive. I read a thread where Lynn found a Naniwa 5000 sufficient for most bevel setting, but I figure my BBW/coti can do what a 5000 grit can do. I'm leaning toward a 3000, because it would only leave a narrow gap in approximate grit from that to the BBW.

So the question is: will a Naniwa 3000 be sufficient for minor repairs, or should I go lower?

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Given that you have the finisher base covered you have a lot
of options.

Two families of hones come to mind.

Naniwa hones are top notch. If you stick with one hone
maker you can get another well graded hone to
supplement your progression with little problem.
I think Naniwa has a 3K/8K combo that is worth a hard look
for the same reason that the Norton 4k/8k hone is such
a work horse. Naniwa has the advantage of other
hones to fill out the progressions, above and below 3/8K
a little bit cleaner than others. This can be important
when mixing natural hones and man made hones.

Another option is the DMT diamond hones. It is
a good thing to have very flat hones and more so on a
fast cutting coarse hone. I like a fine DMT for removing
nicks and tiny chips and use an extra coarse one for lapping
'rock' hones and dealing with big chips. Unless you do a lot of
restores they can be shorter 6" diamond hones to save a buck.
DMTs can be had down to 8K so like Naniwa and Shapton
you can match the transitions.

If your 1K hone is too aggressive a 3K/8K Naniwa
combo or a 4K/8K Norton combo should be on your
consideration/ shopping list.

Price and availability in your area could be a tie breaker.

Thanks holli4p and Tom. I've honed up about 10 razors this weekend, and h4p, you're right, there are some redundancies; I often find myself with multiple choices at any given stage, and run the risk of overdoing it, especially at the lower grits (1K, 2K, 4K, etc.). Likewise with the higher grits between the coti and the Thuri.

I'm beginning to see the wisdom in Tom's reply regarding sticking to a particular manufacturer. I really like the way the Naniwa handles so far, but I'm also really digging the Norton, so after I spend some more time with both I think I may want to liquidate a few hones and build a comprehensive line of one particular brand.

As for finishing, I got this beat up 2-grit combo barber hone ("Panama Hone, Chicago") with light-brown and a black side, and lapped it yesterday. I was a little startled at how well it polishes-both sides seem to be much higher grit than my Swatys or other barber hones. And the black side is suspiciously similar to my (non-vintage) Thuringian--develops the same kind of "slimy" slurry. I'm gonna post some pics in a different thread and see if anybody knows anything about it.

THANKS AGAIN for all the replies. I don't quite have the "perfect" progression down just yet, but I'm getting some awsome edges, and I have a much better idea of the progression I want to end up with.

If you can afford to keep all your hones, it's a good idea. Sometimes one won't quite do it for a razor, and it's always good to have a plan B around.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

If you can afford to keep all your hones, it's a good idea. Sometimes one won't quite do it for a razor, and it's always good to have a plan B around.

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And a plan C
:)

You're both right, and it couldn't hurt to have a plan D through G as well. I'm busting out the plastic and buying full lines of Naniwas, Shaptons, Nortons, and as many J-nats and Eschers as I can get my hands on. I'm pretty sure my wife will understand.