at what grit should hair pop at?

Apologies if these questions are too basic, I can't seem to find an answer.

I'm trying to establish when and where to move from grit to another in doing the HHT. Should hair pop at the 1-4k level where a bevel could be set or is this more a product of the final polishing phase 8k-12k? I have difficulty sensing the wet thumbpad test and I've looked at all the videos. Perhaps I should look at all of them again?

If it isn't popping hair at the 3k level will honing on the 8k eventually bring the edge to that sharpness level?

I am working on practically brand new dovo stainless with naniwa superstones 1k/3k/8K/12k. It cuts arm hair readily enough and will pop hair on one part of the blade.

I'm begining to think I should have got the 5k as an intermediary between 3k & 8k....should this be the next hone to get?

I have lapped all the stones.

Honing isn't as straight forward as I thought it would be... :boohoo:

:)

Would appreciate any input:tu

You're right that honing isnt totally straight forward! :) The theory is simple, but getting it to work is another thing altogether.

I have the exact same set of Naniwa stones and you definately dont need the 5k to get a good edge. If you have the money to splurge, feel free, but its not necessary.

So heres what I do:

Lets say you start with a totally dull razor, with no problems like warps or chips and a straight even bevel. What do I mean by totally dull I hear you ask? A totally dull razor is one that will not pass the TNT. If the razor has even the semblance of a bevel forming you will feel a slight drag and the razor dig in to the nail when you do the TNT. A dull razor will skim over the nail without digging in, and with no drag or resistance.

I tape my spines with one layer of tape because I really dont like the look of spine wear, but it really down to personal preference whether you do or not.

I start doing 40 circles a side and 20 X strokes on the 1k Naniwa, checking with a TNT after each set. Once I feel the edge start to dig in and drag (TNT passed) I'll keep repeating that set until I can shave arm hair at skin level. I will not move off the 1k stone until I can easily shave arm hair at skin level at all points along the blade. This is absolutely crucial, and if you move off too soon you wont get a good edge.

Once I can easily shave arm hair I move on to the 3k, repeating the 40 circles a side and 20 X strokes pattern and looking through an eye loupe to see that the satin look of the 1k bevel has been replaced fully and evenly with the more polished 3k bevel. Once the bevel looks even and replaced I make sure I can shave arm hair at skin level again, same as the 1k, and I also try shaving arm hair floating about 1mm above the skin. After the 3k I find that the razor is starting to catch the odd hair floating above the skin. Then I move on to the 8k.

X strokes only on the 8k and I go in sets of 10 X strokes, checking through the loupe after each 10 to see that the 3k bevel has been replaced by the pretty much mirror finish of the 8k. Once the bevel looks even and fully replaced I do the floating test again, about 1mm above the skin, and I should be able to easily knock the tops of lots of hair at this point.

Once I can do that I go onto the 12k, do 20 X strokes and then go to a natural finisher.

You should be able to shave arm hair at skin level right off the 1k, and easily. If you cant do that, dont move off the 1k until you can! More strokes on the 8k wont correct for an incorrectly set bevel and if you cant shave arm hair at 8k you need to go back to the 1k until you can.

Hope thats of some help!

Good luck and keep us posted!

I have gone through the 1 3 8 12 progression, and it certainly can put an edge on a razor. But I bought the 5 and 8 (without the 3) because that's what I prefer. My razors will cut arm hairs above the surface off the 5k.

+1 with Stubear. That's a very detailed answer. My routine is pretty much the same, and I too use the Naniwa's. The only thing I do different is use back strokes at the 1k stage, or bevel setting. Back strokes are a more aggressive stroke and will quickly remove metal. They are especially useful if you have chips in your bevel. I recently began work on a DD Satinwedge, it wasn't too bad, but needed honing. When I looked through the loupe, I noticed a very small chip out of the bevel. It was about half the size of the bevel. This gets removed at the 1k level, and you do not move forward until it's gone. I also use one layer of tape to prevent wear. So, A combination of all strokes, circles, X strokes and back strokes will get you where you need to be, and Yes, You should be popping hair at each level....

I normally work in sets of 20 each, 20 backstrokes, 20 circles, and 20 full x strokes, test, repeat....
After 1k, I leave off the back stroke and do the Full X, and circles, 20 sets each test, repeat....

I'm normally using the 1k, 3k, 8k and 12k, and then possibly a J nat..Sometimes Diamond paste/spray.
I sometimes hit all the Naniwa's, 1, 3, 5, 8, 10 and 12k. I've felt this gives me a better edge, especially on wedges...
I think Glen does the same.

Also remember folks hairs are different so variations in amount of hair lopped off and ease of the hanging hair test varies.... but yes... the above post was great *chants* bevel first bevel *endchant*

I really like the naniwa 1k for bevels. I have the whole series and when I am using them I follow the 1k with a 3k/5k pyramid and then finish on the 8k and 12k unless I'm doing a natural stone finish. So the 5k may not be 'necessary' but I sure do like having the intermediary step.

I do a bit of hair testing but not as much as I used to. The initial TNT during the bevel setting stage is something I still do. Once I pass that I don't do it again. I follow with more on the 1k to clean up any damage the TNT may have done and begin using the TPT along with a bit of arm or leg hair testing.

Educating the thumb pad is a good thing to do. If you hone razors often arm and leg hair will begin to become a scarce commodity if you use them for a test a lot. People will shy away from you if they don't know that it is just razor mange. :) The TPT will become a good indicator and save a lot of hair.

Many thanks for taking the time to write that detailed reply Stuart. I really appreciate it! :)

I need to get a nagura stone to remove glazing on the 1k...I have used 600 grit wet & dry to now which isn't ideal. I don't want to pay EUR10 postage for a EUR6 stone so was thinking of adding other hones to get value for the shipping hence whether the 5k would be the next in line... you are the experts so thought it was worth asking first.

I think the difficulty is

1) mastering the technique of using no pressure and keeping the blade completely flat...I'm getting there

2) knowing when to move on to another stone (which your reply above will help considerably.)

I ordered this loupe that Jimmy had recommened in another thread I read
Widget Supply 21mm 30x Chrome Teardrop Triplet Jewelers Loupe
and it would appear it can't get here soon enough.

Perhaps I should avoid going to the 3k stage until I get it? I am happy the bevel has been set at the 1k level as it easily removes hair on all parts of the blade at skin level.

I have one other question. I bought a truing/flattening stone(grain size 220) which is the following

NANIWA Flattening Stone (Truing Stone)

but in order to lapp it I used an 80grit wet and dry sandpaper. The trouble is I can't see anything when I mark it with pencil so I don't see any grid/progression on whether my flattening stone is indeed flat. Should I buy white chalk or what would be a suitable alternative?

Thanks a lot for the help guys :tu

Paul

I don't have as much experience as others here, but I've never heard of needing to flatten a flattening or lapping stone. I believe they are made to be perfectly flat right out of the box, and they are generally made of stuff that's a LOT harder than normal honing stones, so they really can't be "ground down" by another stone. Or at least that's what I've understood from others. If I'm wrong, then maybe I've been missing some very basic information.

The lapping stones by Naniwa and Norton are hones like any other - they do not necessarily come flat out of the box, and they need periodic lappings. It's the diamond on steel plates, like DMT's, that come flat and stay flat. For me, this is a big part of the draw to DMT's.

Thank you everyone, this post and the answers were quite useful

If you have one of those little hand held microscopes sold at radioshack it makes honing a lot easier. You can actually see when each stone replaces scratch patterns on the bevel and then you can do an arm hair test and move on to the next stone.

You should be able to cut arm hairs right after the first stone/1K stone.

There is a ton of info packed in here,,,I didn't realize that you guys were using so many slightly different techniques...
I do mean "slightly" here, just tiny little tweaks each or you do, I find that very interresting...

Zib you were right I do use every one of those stones when using the Naniwa SS's I do the same with the Shapton set, just seems to work out very well for my style to take many smaller steps...

The only thing I could add to this actual thread though, is that for me, I have found that the Naniwa SS's can be rather deceiving when it comes to many of the same sharpness tests I use on the other stones.. They impart a very SMOOTH edge as you are honing, that I feel is a bit smoother than other sets at those same lower levels...
When I first got my NSS set I couldn't get anything to pop or feel right in the middle so I was backing up a ton, until I finally just pushed through to the end and realized that my sharpness tests didn't work quite the same...
Now I am used to it, but it took quite a few razors before I learned the difference for me...

Now I am heading to the Honing Alter and putting a very nice Filarmonica through the Naniwas :D can't wait for the test shave...