Naniwa SS from 3k to 8k

Following on from Stuart's reply to my original thread I need to ask some more questions.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...-hair-pop.html


I have the razor to what I believe was the 3k phaze and have done about 50 laps on the 8k but hair isn't falling with the blade 1mm off my skin :( I have fair hair but don't believe this should matter.

So my question is

Roughly...ball park terms I know a lot of variables are involved how many laps should it take on the 8k after the 3k ?

Should I go back to the 3k or just keep going with the 8k ?

I'm confused as to what I should do....I've already gone back once to the 3k and gone onto the 8k but I'm at the same stage...no hair isn't falling unless I have the blade at skin level.

I'm finding it frustrating to be honest.

Always appreciative of any input anybody can offer.

Thanks,
Paul

Have you stropped the razor?
Have you tried shave with the razor?
Hair popping is not so important if the razor can shave, if the razor dos not shave then you have to go back and work more on the bevel set IMHO.

Naniwa's are a bit different than other hones, especially when it comes to hair popping. They impart a very keen edge. Make sure your stones are lapped, They tend to "Swarf" up pretty good, so lapp them under running water if you haven't. When you hone, make sure they're wet and keep a spray bottle near you while honing. if they dry, spritz them, don't soak them..Without knowing the condition of your razor, your technique, did you strop it, have you test shaved, It's hard to give a concrete answer. There is no set amount of strokes. The razor tells you when to move on to the next hone...

I hope this isn't an expensive razor. You may want to get a an old cheap one to practice honing on, and send yours out this time to a honemeister....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sachiya

Following on from Stuart's reply to my original thread I need to ask some more questions.
....snip....
I have the razor to what I believe was the 3k phaze and have done about 50 laps on the 8k but hair isn't falling with the blade 1mm off my skin :( I have fair hair but don't believe this should matter.

So my question is

Roughly...ball park terms I know a lot of variables are involved how many laps should it take on the 8k after the 3k ?
...snip...
Always appreciative of any input anybody can offer.

Thanks,
Paul

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Too many laps on any hone will raise a burr that then rolls
and makes the edge hair popping dull (over honing). Hair
best pops just prior to raising a burr in my limited experience..

You have an 8K and a 3K so it makes sense (to me)
to point you to the "pyramid" method. As you alternate
from 3K to 8K and back the burr will be minimized and the
maximum sharpness of the 8K obtained.

See the wiki and look for pyramid.

My guess is that the number of hone strokes on
the 8K hone is just too many for your steel.

Another way is to hone on the 3K for about 15-20
hone strokes then switch to the 8K. Hone on the 8K
until the razor sucks down (feedback) on the 8K
and no more. There is a point where the scratches
from the 3K are removed by the 8K and a light
vacuum/ stickiness develops and you are done
with the hone and ready for the strop or next hone.
Feedback develops best on well lapped flat hones.

I recommend the pyramid method. It is more formulaic
and less dependent on touch. If you have the touch
feedback may well give the best edge. I like the
feedback from my superstone 12K hone a lot.

Your shave may vary so try a couple things...
As your touch changes the "other" method may
work better...

I don't know if anyone else has experienced this, but naniwa ss hones seem to be a bit counter-productive to HHT compared to other stones. It's not that the edge isn't keen enough - the edge is great - but they tend to (in my experience) smooth the edge, something like what a coticule does but to a lesser extent. That smoothness makes passing HHT harder, but it doesn't make the edge less sharp.

50 laps does seem to be a bit excessive, but like Zib says, there isn't a set amount of strokes - you have to learn to 'feel' when you have done enough.

I tend to do too many strokes, but I always begin with back-honing or circles on each successive hone, so I don't have the burr issue to contend with.

To see what the edge is really capable of off the 8k. why not strop the razor and shave with it? Chances are you'll be impressed.

Regards,
Neil

From what I am seeing lately, much more effort is going into HHT tests than into getting a razor honed to be able to shave with. There are basic pyramids and circle techniques and a couple other methods that are pretty straight forward. Instant success will not happen. Less strokes are still better. Less pressure is still key when you get into the honing and polishing phases.

Like shaving, most people who have expectations of first time success usually have problems and continue to be frustrated, by pushing for success right now. Just because you have done your homework and feel confident, the problem is usually just taking the time to develop what you have learned into little successes that pave the way to get you there.

Have fun,

Lynn

Thank you all for the replies they have been particularly helpful in my quest to get a shaving edge :)

Mainaman,

I have neither stropped nor shaved with the razor but was instead following Stuart's guide.

Great edge off the 1k and hair easily falling at skin level along all parts of the blade - bevel set and went onto the 3k after which the edge seemed keener and indeed 1/2 hairs fell just above skin level. It is the 8k stage and sign of when I'm done that I'm having 'difficulty' (read lack of experience to know when to quit and move to 12k) with.

zib,
I regularly lap the stones when dark striations appear...sometimes rubbing with water removes but to avoid any doubt I lapp on a thick glass plate with 600 grit paper so the stones are perfectly flat. I know I am 'overlapping' but am paranoid the surface must be flat to remove any doubt on another variable affecting my technique.

niftyshaving,
I found your post extremely helpful and I believe you identified my problem. I did indeed have a vacuum effect after 20-30 laps on the 8k after moving on from the 3k....both times I did it. When I turned the blade on the spine all the water across the entire length of the blade was 'sucked' under...I knew I was on the right track and continued doing sets of 10 but never got to the hair falling down 1mm above skin level. Indeed afterwards the water was no longer being 'sucked' in across the entire edge of the blade but only on certain parts. So this would then indicate I have overhoned and perhaps 'raised a burr that has dulled the edge'.

The correct procedure would then be to go back to the 1k level and start afresh once again? From my extremely limited knowledge going back to the 3k won't remove enough metal to make the edge keen again. I am reluctant to try the pyramid method as I've had good results with Stuart's tips. I think I should try to get it to where the water is being sucked under on the 8k....do 5 laps more once I'm there and then switch to the 12k...strop the razor and test shave regardless...refining my technique and asking you gentlemen some more questions if I cannot seem to get there.

Neil,
your message was also reassuring to the extent that I may be chasing the holy grail prematurely given my lack of experience and also that I'm working on naniwa superstones. I have a question for you though...by 'back honing' do you mean drawing the razor towards the spine...similar to stropping ? I think I'll try shave with it from the 8k as you suggest and forget about the 12k hone.

Lynn,
I would never be foolish enough to expect immediate success. I believe I am getting better especially since I switched to using two hands to hone with as I find it more stable in keeping the razor completely flat with no pressure.

The most challenging area for me is knowing when I should move on from one hone to the next, this will come with experience but without experience it is difficult to know. I believe I finally know what a successful TPT should feel like which is something I had difficulty with - balancing the text against the actual tactile sensation was a feat in itself. You can read what it should feel like until the end of time but until you make the actual link with a physical sensation yourself it is difficult to know what a successful TPT should feel like.

Any time I feel I begin to get frustrated I immediately stop. I know it will take time to learn but having sent my original razor off two weeks ago with still no sign of it reappearing I'm determined to get this practically new dovo stainless off the ground.

Apologies for the long response but each merited a reply and you have all been invaluable in providing me with ideas of where I'm going wrong.

to recap can you guys confirm my belief that I should restart at the 1k level, go to 3k, do 20-30 laps on 8k until water is sucked under across all points on the razor...strop and test shave ? :confused: ?

Cheers :tu

Paul

Sachiya,

+1 on Mr Millers suggestion to use a few 'back strokes' when going to the next higher grit on the Naniwas.

Mr Miller recommended this to me last year, and since then I have had excellent results with his suggested progression.

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ

Zib just to reply to what sou said here

"I hope this isn't an expensive razor. You may want to get a an old cheap one to practice honing on, and send yours out this time to a honemeister.... "

my first razor a Dovo primar klang has been honed but there was a problem with the pivot or something and the guy is going to fix it. It was too loose when it opened and closed, I have to wait until I get it back.

I didn't want to get an old/difficult ebay razor after reading Glen's advice so picked up one from ebay where the guy had used it 6 times a Dovo stainless. It came looking brand new with all the original papers. It shaved great the first time I used it as it was shave ready...I asked him to do it for me.

However, my zeal to use my newly acquired naniwa stones and start honing meant I progressively screwed it up from 12k downwards until the shave I got afterwards was horrendous :rolleyes:.

I'm trying to get it back to that edge I first got it :boohoo:
It is one way of starting to learn how to hone...desperate to get a straight I can shave with whilst my new razor is being repaired.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zib

Naniwa's are a bit different than other hones, especially when it comes to hair popping. They impart a very keen edge. ..

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

I don't know if anyone else has experienced this, but naniwa ss hones seem to be a bit counter-productive to HHT compared to other stones. It's not that the edge isn't keen enough - the edge is great - but they tend to (in my experience) smooth the edge, something like what a coticule does but to a lesser extent. That smoothness makes passing HHT harder, but it doesn't make the edge less sharp.

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Yeah I agree here in fact that is exactly what I said in the first thread...

http://straightrazorpalace.com/650994-post12.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lynn

From what I am seeing lately, much more effort is going into HHT tests than into getting a razor honed to be able to shave with. There are basic pyramids and circle techniques and a couple other methods that are pretty straight forward. Instant success will not happen. Less strokes are still better. Less pressure is still key when you get into the honing and polishing phases.

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+1000.... HHT God I am sick of reading HHT...

Seriously until you have honed razors sucessfully that you have shaved with, and know they are shave worthy and even how shave worthy they are the HHT doesn't mean diddly squat...

Sachiya,
I think you are getting caught up in a lot of theory and you are getting lost in it.
Just hone strop and shave, HHT does not indicate shave readiness. The razor can easily pass the HHT, but if the shave is harsh what good is it?
If the razor does not pass HHT , that does not mean that it does not shave well, only a shave test will tell.

+1 with Stefan. Everyone has different procedures they use for various blades. A wedge may be different than a full hollow. Some guys use every grit in a series, I've done with Naniwa with great results. I do follow a pattern. I'll do 10-20 back strokes, followed by 10-20 Full X strokes, followed by 20 circles. Then, I feel the edge, look at it under a loupe (sometimes), and test it on my arm. Once I'm satisfied, I move on to the next hone, and the Naniwa's do have trouble with the hair popping. I don't know why...

Some razors, for whatever reason can take forever on a 1k to set a bevel. I guess it has to do with how hard that particular steel is, but the edge has to be correct coming off the 1k, that's your foundation for everything to come..You can't make it up later on another hone...Quite a while ago, I had lot's of trouble with a DD Satinedge, at least I think it was, normally, these razors take an edge quite easily. I wound up sending it off to Max, because I thought I was crazy...

It took Max over a 1/2 hour on his 1k before he could get the bevel right, My point is, every razor is different...It'll take you a bit of time to get comfortble honing and know when to do what. As I said, get some old junk razor to practice with.

Rich

Probably the lack of hair popping is due to the smoothness of the edge--striations aid in hair grabbing. I just got mine in yesterday (400, 1K, 3/8 combo), so I'm still playing, but for me, I could only pop arm hair after stropping right next to the skin. Not really worried as it was pretty effortless. We will see what the shave test brings. I'm purposely not going to any finishers after the 8K so I can be sure I'm getting the max out of it 1st.

After coming off the 3K, I've been doing 15-20 light x-strokes on the 8K. Again, we'll see if that's enough or not. Still experimenting.

OT, but that P1 strop I also picked up is amazingly solid! :D

Update: test shaved off of 2 & the edge wasn't quite there. Did more on the 3K side & arm hair shaving was much better. Tried a pyramid from 15 on 1 razor just for fun (I normally don't do them, but when figuring out new hones, I usually end up trying everything to see how they behave!), but haven't tested yet. What do you think about 40 circles or Japanese strokes/side & 10 x-strokes--1st w/ light pressure, then w/ no pressure. I think that's what Lynn recommends for the 5K, but not sure.

Has anyone found that the 8k side can be overdone like the Norton? On that, I usually did 15 & then checked every few laps w/ a TPT. Still figuring out tests for these--I've definitely found they feel different (smoother) from the Norton so far. Love to here from experienced Naniwa users!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

...

+1000.... HHT God I am sick of reading HHT...

Seriously until you have honed razors sucessfully that you have shaved with, and know they are shave worthy and even how shave worthy they are the HHT doesn't mean diddly squat...

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True dat.
I am a serious novice in honing, and have honed maybe 100 razors, am happy with the results I'm getting though I still fall short of the edge that the honemeisters here can get--but I can "see there from here" as it were.

Ironically, I still can do the HHT. Gave it up. If a razor will cut arm hair floating off the skin, I don't care about the parlor trick of cutting a single hair.

And if it shaves, I don't care what tests I can't make it pass. I want close, smooth, comfortable, fun shaves and I'm getting them.

My honing is passing the "fun" test too!

I hone with Naniwas-1K, 3K, 8K and 12K. Sometimes after the 3K I will go to the coticule because I'm playing with that on the side.

I find on the Naniwas that I'm going for fewer and fewer strokes. Once the bevel is set, I only seldom go past 20 strokes on any of the stones past the 1K.

The pyramid razor was not ready, but it was very smooth--almost coticule smooth. I did Lynn's recommendation (I think) for the 5K (40 circles or equiv./side followed by 10 x-strokes--1st w/ light pressure, then w/ no pressure), then 15 ultra-light x-strokes on the 8K. The pyramid razor then felt great on the TPT, before & after stropping. Nice & sticky--almost as much as the Nakayama finished Randall Hall I did today. Should be a nice shave test tomorrow...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LawsonStone

I hone with Naniwas-1K, 3K, 8K and 12K. Sometimes after the 3K I will go to the coticule because I'm playing with that on the side.

I find on the Naniwas that I'm going for fewer and fewer strokes. Once the bevel is set, I only seldom go past 20 strokes on any of the stones past the 1K.

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Just to clarify, you're doing something like 20 x-strokes on the 3K & then moving to the 8K?