Bevel-setting grit range?

Because I've only been honing a few months and as a result am still in the learning phase, i've been careful about selecting hones to use for setting a bevel.

My Coti is very slow, and rarely gets dark from metal removal when I use a slurry. Typically the slurry dries out before there is any indication of metal removal, so I continually recreate the slurry when working on a bevel. Eventually the slurry gets dark, but not before I have serious doubts about whether it's working or not.

Recently I picked up a Cotcarb (BBW backed with a 600 grit carborundum) and tried using the carbo side prior to my coti w/slurry. This seems to work. But I'm wondering whether 600 is entirely too rough.

Complicating (or more accurately, what makes this all so interesting) the matter is a few x-hones I've also picked up. One seems to be a very old benchsize brown carborundum. Another is a very very hard black natural that seems to be a black Arkansas. Still another is a long thin brown spotty natural that seems to be rougher than the black one. I've been testing them on a 19th century sheffeild chisel that I'm guessing is of similar steel to the razors that Im working on. But deciding to try these out on a razor is giving me a moment of pause.

I'd like to figure out if any of these can set a bevel without possibly ruining a razor. Any advice? Is there an acceptable grit range for carborundum stones used for bevels? I'm not able to post picturesnfor am couple of weeks I'm on vacation :)

Bevel setters are typically in the 1-2k grit range. Much under 1k is getting into major edge repair territory and would probably be a little bit too aggressive for normal bevel setting. 600 grit would definately work, and you could go onto your coticule after that, but you might find your adding quite a lot of hone wear as well if you're not careful. You can always take metal off but ya cant put it back on again..! :)

If your edge doesnt need any repair work doing you can set a bevel with the coticule plus a heavy slurry, but it can take a little time.

Do any of your X hones feel slightly smoother than the 600 grit carborundum? That could be a good way to go. If you want to get a gauge of what 1k feels like, grab some 1k sandpaper and see if any of your hones feel like a similar grit. If they do, give that one a try and see how it goes.

I hope you're bringing all these cool stones to the meet in November..? :D

I'm hip to the idea that bevel stones are 1k-2k. I was really looking to see if any sub-1k stones were used. The Cotcarb is a known quantity, unlike the x-hones.

And yes, the brown and black naturals feel much smoother than the cotcarb. The black one certainly does, and polishes the visible scratch marks left by the brown one off the ancient chisel.

..and I'm bringing it all to London in November! Razors in all states of restoration, and the rocks!

Found a pic of the brown xhone on this thread http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...x-hones-2.html it's identical to the first photo and was never identified in the thread.

It can be done on the 4K Norton as far as I know. Having never tried it myself I can confirm however, it is entirely possible on 1K and 3K Naniwas; and the general consensus amongst the many honesters and honemeisters is 1-3K, 1K being preferable.

I myself use a King 800.

For bevel set I use 1k Naniwa Chosera, for repairs 600 Naniwa Chosera before the 1k.

I've also found there are differences between bevel setters.

The 1k Shapton is a harder and more aggressive cutter than the Naniwa 1k. I've also heard that the Norton 1k and the 1200 DMT are pretty fast cutters as well.

I tend to start on the Naniwas as they seem to be less agressive than the Shaptons, but if I'm not really getting anywhere fast with those I'll swap to the Shaptons. This seems to be working pretty well so far!

For those coming to the London meet, I'll be bringing both sets with me (plus some naturals) so you can try 'em out if you want to!

I do the majority of my bevel setting on a 1K and the majority of my edge repair on a 220. I have used th3 500 on occasion when the chips were not too big or the edge/spine repair didn't need as much metal removal.

You can always find a use for an odd stone.........:)

Have fun,

Lynn

Personally, I don't like going too far under 1k on razors. The exception would be heavy grind AND needs serious metal removed. This is part of why I've been liking my DMT1.2k so much. The only hones under 1k that I really like are the Choseras. The others feel too rough and slurry/dish too easily for me to be comfortable with them (and the lower grit DMT's are to aggressive for me).

After the break in period, it actually leaves a very nice bevel when used without pressure. But if you want to remove some serious metal, just a little pressure will get that job done. It's pretty impressive how fast the water on the hone turns black. The added bonuses are you'll never get stone slurry, and it's always flat.

I go back and forth between wanting to replace the DMT with a Chosera 1k and wanting to keep the DMT forever and ever. At the moment, I'm on the DMT's side.

I'm with the 1K crowd for bevel setting. I use the Norton. However in the old days all I had was the Norton 4K/8K and I did it all with that. I still have the original stone and the 4K side is just about gone. It takes longer but can be done. I only go lower than 1k if I have an edge with serious damage to it.

1k seems to work for me, though i have dropped for a razor or 2 in in a poor state.

Ok gang, I pulled the trigger on a Naniwa 1k. It was time to get a true bevel stone.

Thanks everyone :)

Ohhh, pitty the poor under rated belgian blue.

You tried the carbo, you tried the coti with slurry...why did you not try the blue with slurry? I bet it works a wonder if it doesnt need a lot of metal removal.

Typcially, BBW with slurry is slower than coti with slurry because it has a lower garnet content.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

Typcially, BBW with slurry is slower than coti with slurry because it has a lower garnet content.

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But if its the garnet content that makes for the cutting speet/ability, and they are both the same otherwise, doesnt that imply that the BBW can produce a finish equal to the coti, but will just take longer to accomplish it?

There are so many factors... a few that I know of are % garnet content and garnet size - lower and larger (in that order) when comparing the BBW to the Coti. I don't know about how the garnets fracture in coti vs bbw, I don't know the release rate, I don't know the various shapes, and there is a ton of other stuff that I don't even know I don't know.

Then again, they're natural stones and they vary, so there are probably no blanket statements that apply. One would have to experiment with a give coti and a given BBW to make a comparison between specific stones. (Personally, I have other things I'd rather do with my time.)

I usually use....

1. 320 - 500 grit sandpaper to remove nicks apparent to the naked eye.

2. 1000 grit sandpaper to remove micro nicks. IMHO the Norton 1000 is to slow and the DMT is to harsh on the edge. My second choice is the Shapton Glass 1000. I have not tried a Naniwa SS.

3. Norton 4000 to finalize a bevel. I have used this for years and it always works. My second choice is a Shapton Glass 4000.

Just my $.02,

Regarding the bbw versus the yellow I've read that the much larger size of the garnet in the bbw account for it's sharpening ability (with slurry) while the smaller size of the garnet in the yellow account for the finer finishing characteristics. Pretty sure Rob of Ardennes Coticule posted that some time a go when he used to participate in the forums.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

Personally, I don't like going too far under 1k on razors. The exception would be heavy grind AND needs serious metal removed. This is part of why I've been liking my DMT1.2k so much. The only hones under 1k that I really like are the Choseras. The others feel too rough and slurry/dish too easily for me to be comfortable with them (and the lower grit DMT's are to aggressive for me).

After the break in period, it actually leaves a very nice bevel when used without pressure. But if you want to remove some serious metal, just a little pressure will get that job done. It's pretty impressive how fast the water on the hone turns black. The added bonuses are you'll never get stone slurry, and it's always flat.

I go back and forth between wanting to replace the DMT with a Chosera 1k and wanting to keep the DMT forever and ever. At the moment, I'm on the DMT's side.

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Very well said, Dylan. I moved to the Naniwa 1K for bevel setting because I love it's consistency, feel and gentleness. I was inspired to buy one after watching Lynn's effortless-looking honing in the '09 Razorcon videos. But the DMT 1200 is so effective at removing and shaping metal on deeply troubled razors that it's hard to beat, so I keep one handy.

Unless the spine itself is also screwed, I tape the spine when using the DMT because my too-heavy hand causes it to chew up spines too quickly. With pressure, the DMT 1200 doesn't take any guff from any razor, even screwed up Reynolds wedges can be brought to heel. And no need for lapping, to boot.

For typical bevel resets on non-screwed razors, the Naniwa 1K is perfect. If I had the patience, I think it can handle damaged razors too. It's as gentle as something of it's grit can be while still being very effective. If I don't get it right the first time, I feel I can start over without worrying about chewing up the razor. It doesn't deeply scratch bevels or micro-chip edges, and has extremely consistent feedback, without the "honing on concrete" feel of the DMT 1200. No soaking, and it cleans up/laps well between uses. Again, very consistent, and less pressure sensitive than the DMT at comparable grit.

Since I've adjusted to it's feel, I have little trouble knowing when a razor is ready to "move on" to the next higher grit, the edges are very consistent. I've learned fairly quickly how a Naniwa 1K edge should feel when it's right, and I think that's a big, big help.