Picking A Japanese Hone

Here are two hones I am currently playing with at the moment. On the left is a Nakayama Asagi (1061 grams, 200mm x 107mm x 35mm) I bought from a gentleman in Hawaii. On the left is a Shoubudani Asagi (811 grams, 195mm x 70mm x 27mm) I purchased from a gentleman in Netherland.
My dilemma is trying to pick just one to keep. So far I have shave tested the Nakayama on 3 razors, the Shoubudani on 2. Honestly, I can't quite tell which is superior yet, only time will tell. Or maybe Stefan will tell me. Both feel extremely smooth to the touch, and to the steel.
My suspicions are that the Nakayama is softer but finer than the Shoubudani. The shape is also awkward at first but works out just fine with X strokes. If I lapped it down a bit more I would have even more surface area. Whereas the Shoubudani is the classic brick shape which might make using naguras via JimR's method a little easier.
I think I'm just going to have to stick to one razor (Oh MY!) for a while, and hone, shave, hone, shave with each to determine which stone is easier, faster, smoother, more versitile... this will be fun.
I have many thoughts about these hones, but I finally got a chance to photograph them and share them with some friends. Enjoy!

http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...agi-right.jpeg

Personally I'd pick the one that fits my honing style, all things being equil.

You have a great opportunity to try many different stones, Enjoy :)

That’s a tough one. All things being equal between the 2 stones performance, pick the one that looks best. That Asagi looks to have some orange skin on the backside making it more valuable. As you know looks mean nothing about the stones performance. But it sure is nice to have a stone that looks nice AND performs well. That’s my logic. GO with the Asagi Bassguy.. The irregular shape is cool.

Mike :)

Shoubudani Asagi it is BLUE.
Mike

The nakayma is not as uniform as the Shobudani, the pic does not show the actual features.
If the stones indeed are equal in performance I'd go with the more uniform one because uniform stones of such size are more unique.
Now if the personal preference is towards one stone no matter of appearance then the choice is clear.

So to help make things a clearer for me, I have picked a razor to audition the stones with. This JA Henckels 98 came from a friend's grandfather, who was a barber in Italy then immigrated to New York. It was likely his work horse razor and exhibits a bit of hone and toe wear.

I removed old steel, set the bevel no tape, then patiently polished one of the most perfect edges I've ever put on a Solingen blade, up to Naniwa 12k (this steel doesn't like my King hones, or vice versa; was very prone to micro chipping). Pops hairs nicely now.

SO>>> the game plan now is to roughly follow Stefan's suggestions which are: do 20 laps only water on one stone, shave test no strop, evaluate. Then take the blade back down the progression a bit, 4k perhaps, finish on 12k, then do 20 laps only water on the other stone, shave test no strop, evaluate. Do I have that right?

http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...ani-asagi.jpeg

That does sound like a pretty good way to do it but what do I know? You shave every couple of days right? I bet it'll be tough to hone a razor and then have to wait to test it out...at least it is for me, lol

you do not have to go down to 4k, just run the razor on the 12k and switch stones.
You can also try one of the stones after the other and see what happens,

I don't see any benefit in not stropping prior to the evaluation. The shave test might as well replicate actual use.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I don't see any benefit in not stropping prior to the evaluation. The shave test might as well replicate actual use.

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I thought about that, as I have never shaved without stropping on leather at least 60 laps.

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Originally Posted by bassguy

I thought about that, as I have never shaved without stropping on leather at least 60 laps.

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Also, if the edges end up the exact same after stropping (if stropping has some equalizing effect that "contaminates" your "data"), then I figure you can basically pick the stones based on some other category, like cost or aesthetic appeal.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I don't see any benefit in not stropping prior to the evaluation. The shave test might as well replicate actual use.

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IMHO you get better feel of the stone if you do not strop.

Oh dear!, I would absolutely get rid of the Nakayama Asagi. I just happen to have a little extra space in my shave den and would certainly be more than happy to take it off your hands and help rid you of this frustrating decision.:D

ARE YOU KIDDING KEEP THE NAKAYAMA!:dropjaw:

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Originally Posted by heirkb

That does sound like a pretty good way to do it but what do I know? You shave every couple of days right? I bet it'll be tough to hone a razor and then have to wait to test it out...at least it is for me, lol

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The trick might be to do the same test, but instead of waiting a day to shave and trying to recall the shave you might considering doing one side of your face, rehoning, and then doing the other. That would be a fair comparison. Also, I agree with the notion of not stropping. You already have too many variables. Don't introduce another one, especially after honing.

I admit I am taking a very beginner's mind approach to this test. For the past 2.5 hours I have been working on the same Joseph Elliot wedge, taking it from chipped edge to slaying arm hair like Darth Vader. I honed it as I normally would, finishing on the 12k reaching an acceptable edge by my amateurish standards, watching closely with a loupe every 10 laps to see what was happening on the edge and bevel.

On a whim I grabbed the Shoubudani and whipped up a milky slurry with my (poor, tired, abused) DMT Course plate. 30 laps produced a nice haze on the bevel and increased the sharpness considerably, but nothing phenomenal. I rinsed the slurry off and did 30 more strokes with just water. Sharper still, more delicate haze. Great! Let's do it again!

I wiped off the haze with 10~ strokes on the Naniwa which took it back down to acceptably sharp. I proceeded in the same manner, 30~ strokes with slurry on the Nakayama. Not surprisingly the slurry was different on each stone, more whitish on the Nakayama and more tan colored on the Shoubudani. Great results, the haze produced was deeper blue, only way I can describe it. The edge as back up to pinnacle peakness. I rinsed the stone of slurry and did 30~ strokes water only. This put the edge in an amazing state for sure, arm hairs litter my kitchen floor as proof. Stropping this razor knocked my socks off. I rarely get this excited about Sheffield steel, if at all.

But what does it all mean!?! Stay tuned.

I'm really interested on your thoughts on the Nakiyama Asagi. I just picked one up on ebay. I was looking for something to use as a final finishing stone to use after a Shapton Ceramic Pro 12000 and it seemed to fit the bill.

It is my understanding that no two stones from the same place and of the same color will have the same sharpening or polishing properties. I'm learning that it is best to spend a lot of time with a stone to see what it is capable of.

check the scratch pattern on the blade that will tell you which stone is finer

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Originally Posted by mainaman

IMHO you get better feel of the stone if you do not strop.

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If you strop and shave test and there are any differences however minute, you should be able to detect them. If for the sake of discovery you are evaluating the edges first microscopically, that should not prevent the stropping and shave testing. The hard part will be the differences between different razors. I have tried several Asagi's and have kept one as well and it is truly one of my favorite stones. My Ohzuku doesn't beat it out by much.

Good luck,

Lynn

Two weeks later I have settled in with a stone. I decided to keep the Nakayama for a few reasons. First it was less expensive probably due to it's odd shape. But I really like it for it's odd shape, makes it seem more natural. Also I was able to get consistent results with this hone that were just a bit more reliable than the Shoubudani. I'm attributing that to beginners luck only, not a difference in stone quality.

Thanks to a few friends here (Seth, Jim, Teshiba-san) I then acquired a full set of Mikawa nagura. Botan, Tenjo, Mejiro, and Koma, all stamped. Interestingly the koma is so very different from the others leaving a candy yellow slurry, but using it made the whole nagura method click into place for me. Refreshing each slurry at least once seems to be important somehow.

The box I'm keeping it in is an old Japanese lacquer cake box which fits everything perfectly. Inside the lid is a Daruma doll symbol. Jim tells me the characters for Daruma (達磨) individually mean 達 = "accomplished; reach; arrive; attain" and 磨 = "grind; polish; scour; improve; brush (teeth)" Seems perfect to me for a hone box :)

Now all I need is to grow my hair out long enough to make a lacquer brush with, then I can finally lacquer this hone with the traditional urushim I have sitting right here. Who wants to have a lacquer party? Bring gloves, No touchy!

Ah... feels so good to have this all figured out. I couldn't be happier with the results so far. Thanks for taking the ride with me.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...jiro-koma.jpeg

Nice arrangement you have there :)

Glad to hear it all fell into place! I'm awaiting my nagura from Teshiba-san as we speak!

The Daruma comes from my wife's home town: Takasaki. I've pictured them in my SOTD before:
http://i924.photobucket.com/albums/a...July31SOTD.jpg

Traditionally, the owner makes a wish. At that time, they paint the left eye (right as you face it). When the wish comes true, the owner paints the other eye. Once a year, people take their Daruma to a shrine (jinja) where they burn the Daruma who granted their wish... It sounds as if your wish was granted--

おめでとう！

Nice set up....

I have to admit, with all these new J-Nat purchases going around, it's really hard fighting off the HAD. They're all so pretty...

For what it's worth, I like to "discover" a stone by using knives rather than razors. Here's why:

1. Most of my razors are already really sharp, and there's not a lot left for a stone to do. This makes it harder to differentiate stones. It's not hard to find a fairly dull kitchen knife to play around with.

2. You can't use a lot of pressure when honing a razor. You can use some with a knife, and this reveals a lot about a particular stone.

3. The sharpening angle is pretty much automatic with a razor (lay it flat on the stone, maybe with tape on the spine). It's not at all automatic with a knife, and this can also be informative. When people say that super-hard stones are "unforgiving," what they mean is that you really have to hold a precise angle to get a good result. Visibly uneven micro-bevels say something about a stone's hardness.

4. Knives give better visual feedback. Magnification always helps, but you don't need a 400 power microscope to tell the difference between mirror and haze on a knife bevel.

The proof is in the shave, of course. I just think knives are a good tool for investigation. As an example, I didn't really understand my Chinese 12k until I had finished a 210mm gyuto on it.

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Originally Posted by wsfarrell

For what it's worth, I like to "discover" a stone by using knives rather than razors. Here's why:

1. Most of my razors are already really sharp, and there's not a lot left for a stone to do. This makes it harder to differentiate stones. It's not hard to find a fairly dull kitchen knife to play around with.

2. You can't use a lot of pressure when honing a razor. You can use some with a knife, and this reveals a lot about a particular stone.

3. The sharpening angle is pretty much automatic with a razor (lay it flat on the stone, maybe with tape on the spine). It's not at all automatic with a knife, and this can also be informative. When people say that super-hard stones are "unforgiving," what they mean is that you really have to hold a precise angle to get a good result. Visibly uneven micro-bevels say something about a stone's hardness.

4. Knives give better visual feedback. Magnification always helps, but you don't need a 400 power microscope to tell the difference between mirror and haze on a knife bevel.

The proof is in the shave, of course. I just think knives are a good tool for investigation. As an example, I didn't really understand my Chinese 12k until I had finished a 210mm gyuto on it.

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So how are you going to be able to tell if the stone is good for razors when you use it on knives?
Magnification will not tell you anything about the shave you are going to get.

This actually makes sense. With a larger piece of steel you can watch how the stone cuts metal. Wider surface area, more to see. It doesn't tell you how it will be for razors but is just a performance gauge in general. I did this on Thanksgiving actually, sharpened up my humble Carter knife for bird carving, whoa! Completely changed the way I think about this stone.

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Originally Posted by bassguy

This actually makes sense. With a larger piece of steel you can watch how the stone cuts metal. Wider surface area, more to see. It doesn't tell you how it will be for razors but is just a performance gauge in general. I did this on Thanksgiving actually, sharpened up my humble Carter knife for bird carving, whoa! Completely changed the way I think about this stone.

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Knife sharpening does not require nearly as fine stone to get great results.
Going higher then 6k is really a waste of time because the edge will be gone at the moment you hit the board.

Yes but I'm beginning to understand why there are those among us so reluctant to put a grit rating on naturals. They don't act the same as synthetics do IME. The feedback is instructive as get out, the stone teaches me how to use it, making different sounds depending on how it is cutting metal, color of slurry etc.,. The stone speaks.

The same is true of gut strings. I find gut strings to have many pitch/speed limitations, but can speak more richly than steel strings. Rodney Greene is a drummer here in NYC that I particularly enjoy listening to and he uses real animal skin drum heads (despite similar gut pitch and humidity characteristics not present in synthetic drum heads). I asked him about it and he said, "...You gotta get God involved".
I agree, I digress.

You're right, it was a fleeting edge but boy was it every bit as shave ready- after maybe 10-20 strokes. Cut right through the bird and the foil pan FWIW, my crap knife skills notwithstanding. Getting my knife shave ready is possibly pointless yet, practice just the same.

Justin, you make me happy and Jello all at once. I see my piece of eastern steel is gonna be greeted by the right welcoming party. ;)

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Originally Posted by bassguy

You're right, it was a fleeting edge but boy was it every bit as shave ready- after maybe 10-20 strokes. Cut right through the bird and the foil pan FWIW, my crap knife skills notwithstanding. Getting my knife shave ready is possibly pointless yet, practice just the same.

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YouTube - Shaving with a Takeda Ajikiri edited

Kitchen knife Shave Ready :p Ya but after a few days that edge was toast on the boards. I put the edge back down to 8k and it's much happier :p

Great thread. Thanks for posting and sharing your jnat journey. I am interested in knowing how to acquire tenjou, mejiro and koma nagura stones as well as hones. I really like the ones that Justin has purchased.