So, take a razor fresh off your favorite bevel setter as the starting point for the test?
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Ah ha!
Well, i wouldn't (normaly) use a coticule with just water to set a bevel either.... sheesh!
The entire purpose of using the dilucot method is to do exactly that.
That's why we al keep killing our edges on a glass.... to have a new bevel to set.
No one will argue the point that touching up a razor with a coticule and water is surely faster than setting a new bevel, slurry or no slurry.
lets say this way.
instead of you using dilucote method go head just start with water and don't clean up any slurry etc. keep it going until the edge you ware trying to get or usually get.
you will need to make last 10 strokes just water without any pressure.
after that check time how much did you spend and compare using dilucot see how much time you are spending.
Attachment 52040
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Chris
Now you are mixing up things.
did you try method how it should be ? without cleaning up slurry and just keep it going ?
As your first experiment wasn't correct one?
check the time how long took you to get there?
lastly have you ever tried check the edge after dulling on the glass bottle?
you are doing very minimal damage to the edge when you to this.
I think two points are being missed here.
First, and I know others disagree, there is no point in dulling a razor before sharpening it. Damaging/dulling your edge just doesn't make any sense to me. I know it's not a great analogy, but to me this makes as much sense as deliberately breaking your leg in preparation for training for a marathon. That is what Hi_Bud_Gl was saying about just honing it. Since it is not the main point of this thread, I'd rather not descend into a debate about pre-dulling.
Second, and this is the more critical point, is that except for extremely hard coticules, it is IMPOSSIBLE to actually hone with just water. The reason that a coticule is an amazing/unique hone is the relative ease that it releases slurry during honing. That is, you don't need to use a rubbing stone to create a slurry because the simple act of honing causes a constant release of slurry. You don't need to add to it with a rubbing stone but you also can't stop its production. You can only reduce it in the final polish by rinsing off the stone and doing final light strokes with just water.
Sham, I'm sorry, I've long since lost the ability to follow this train of reasoning.
As I understand it now, your intent is to show how to use the coti after the bevel being set on a different stone?
That defeats the purpose of using slurry on a coticule.
The slurry on a coticule is vital in providing enough abrasive action to set a bevel, but is detrimental to polishing the bevel. We can't have it both ways, and if you are using a different stone to do your bevel work, there is no need for slurry.
If you are using a different stone the whole argument becomes nonsensical; of course it would be faster to use no slurry, but there is no need for slurry.
Yes, a coticule without slurry will be faster on a razor ready to be polished.
Yes, a cotuicule with slurry will be slower on a razor ready to be polished, as one now needs to overcome the dulling effect caused by the slurry.
Sham, I did try the test... as I understood it.
I took two identical razors, dulled the edges (roughly to equal degrees), repaired the bevel on each with two different methods: Slurry diluted to clear water, and clear water alone.
The two results were in direct contradiction to your statement that slurry would take longer. The razor honed with slurry reached shaving sharpness within 12 minutes (aproximatly 200 strokes)
The razor honed with water alone is at aproximatley 800 strokes, and is still not as sharp as the other, and required more than 30 minutes.
:confused:
According to my understanding of the dulicot method it was an attempt to prove that if all a person had was one coticule (with a slurry stone) they could use that one stone to set their bevel, sharpen and finish the razor to a shave ready condition.
I don't think the method was necessarily recommended as being the default for a honer to use on all of his razors on a regular basis. Bart used to post that he used a 1200 DMT to set his bevels and followed with the bbw/slurry and the coticule with water IIRC.
IME a bevel can be set with a coticule with heavy slurry but I prefer the quicker and more expedient synthetic 1 to 2k grit naniwa, shapton or norton. For the guy who by necessity or choice only has a coticule to work with the dulicot method can be utilized to provide a shave ready razor if the honer has the skill.
In the early stages of Bart's development of the dulicot method the question of whether a novice would know they were actually improving the edge as opposed to having an advantage from an edge already being somewhat 'there' came up. So the purpose of dulling the razor was to assure that the honer is starting with an edge that is uniformly dull. To avoid a novice honer thinking he was achieving a sharp edge when the razor was already sharp or nearly so.
There is no harm in a civil discourse and debate on the merits of one stone or method of honing over another. OTOH, going back to preferences, I tried everything I could to successfully sharpen/finish razors with the Spyderco set of medium, fine and ultra fine. I gave up and sold them.
I've read posts by honers who have had great success with theirs. So is the fault with the stones or with my ability with them ? If a stone and a method work for you but not for me far be it from me to criticize. Regardless of what we use and how we use it the edge will meet the whiskers and either deliver the goods or not. If the method/stone isn't working the user will move on to another combination until they find whatever works for them. Just IMHO.
And a good point Jimmy, That's how it is. Everyone has what works for them, And that's it, isn't it, It works for them....We can relay this information out, and it's up for grabs, to try, You may not like it, it may not work for you, but it did for the user, and he wishes to share the info..
The last two post are well said and I believe expresses what Sham is saying and what I believe. My concern is the same in one instance and that's running the blade lightly across glass. I did that after checking the edge under 30X then after running the blade across a regular glass. There wasn't much difference at all.
I have one Coti that is soft enough to pass the test mentioned in the booklet where you use a fingernail and see if it leaves a mark. With that Coti water worked just fine in about oh 8 to 10 minutes I think it was. In other words what we would call a fast cutter. I was able to do a fair finishing job with light pressure. I still got the Escher out for the best edge:-)
I just wonder if some of these new methods don't wear a blade down rather fast.
Keep in mind the Coticule is a natural stone and as everyone knows it comes in different grades? Different grades alright or is it that as time goes on the deposit is producing inferior stones and those inferior stones have different characteristics which we assume are different grades.
Also keep in mind a classic Coticule is a very hard dense rock. If your talking a coticule you can scratch with your fingernail, in my book that a very different beast probably a stone that has really not gone through much of a metamorphism process. Also consider that a Coticule in many respects is a dual action sharpener. It's not just that it releases garnets but as you hone, the garnets that are exposed at the surface and within the matrix are also honing in a different manner than the loose stuff rattling around on the surface.
Personally I've always considered it a finisher and I use it with water and am very satisfied with the result.
well i have to say that none of my five coticules produce a auto slurry with just honing on water. infact out of all the coticules i have owned none of them have produced auto slurry by general honing on water.
i once set a bevel on dmt 1200. i then honed on coticule with water for many laps and the shave skiped across my face, it didnot workwith just water.
Unfortunately Sham, you are dealing with several people in this thread that their only intention is to sidetrack your thread,, They have no intention of trying what you are saying...
And as a Senior Moderator of SRP, consider yourselves warned...
For whatever it's worth, when I use slurry with my coticule, it brings my razors' edges to a certain level more quickly than when I don't. This level is duller than I would want to shave with, but sharper than a razor without a bevel :)
When I want to use the coticule to make the razor sharper than this level, I cannot afford to have much slurry, if any, on my coticule
Am I doing it right? probably not, but that's where I've settled with it
I tried this using a blade that shaved arm hair with just a little pulling. Not sure if that's considered as having the bevel completely set, but it was a lot more set than it would be after breadknifing.
I did regular honing strokes in sets of 100. The first coating of water lasted for 200 strokes, after which I added 2 drops of water every 100 strokes.
There was no visible slurry until about 250 strokes, when I noticed the water on the blade looked *slightly* milky. Nothing on the hone looked like slurry, though the water/swarf did get metal-colored.
After 500 strokes (roughly 15-20 minutes), I stopped and tested the edge. With the TPT, I thought there was a little improvement, but maybe not a lot. I tried a quick shave test (no lather or prep) on my sideburn and had to stop immediately since it just pulled. I cleaned off the coticule and did another 10 strokes with just water, but it didn't seem to help.
So not much luck today, but I'm going to try again tomorrow with my easiest-to-hone razor. It's also the last razor I did the dilucot method with, so I'll have an idea how it compares.
Random thought: my coticule seems to cut EXTREMELY fast with even a little slurry raised on it, but slow as molasses with just water.
Question: would it be most 'fair' to make the comparison by doing the same honing strokes as with the dilucot method (meaning down-and-back with a finger on the blade instead of normal X strokes)?
I decided to try some of my coticules for a mini experiment with a crappy razor. I did 20 diagonal chisel/japanese strokes (with pressure) on each side with several coticules with water.
16 coticules had visible slurry after 20 strokes on each side
1 had visible slurry after 40 strokes
1 had visible slurry after 60 strokes
The amount of slurry formed varied drastically among the hones, but the point is that all released at least some slurry within a reasonable time of use. With further use, especially in the multiples of hundreds of strokes described above, most (or at least many) coticules will develop a slurry with the pressure that would be used for bevel setting and sharpening.
I just want to say that even though I haven't had a chance to try this yet due to 13hr work shifts, thank you to Sham, for starting an interesting thread and theory. For me, there's sometimes a lack of forums started that urge new honers to try different methods that will open my mind to new horizans and this excited me when I read it. You're sort of a mentor to me,as well as a friend in my mind, and I appreciate everything you've done for me.
As far as autoslurry on the hone with just water..I wonder if using a new coticule from Ardennes or a vintage coticule is what makes a difference in this factor? For example how many of you that haven't had autoslurry are using old hones compared to new hones? I know some say coticules are all the same..but could it be a factor we don't see?
Maybe when I test this I will use my vintage coticule as well as my coticule from Ardennes and see if there is a difference.
I only have one "new" coticule, a 3"x10" which I bought from Ardennes. It was one of the many that produced slurry in the first 20 strokes on both sides. The rest of mine are all "vintage." I'm not sure if there is any relevance given that they are all rocks of the same age.
Don't know if mine is vintage, but it's super pink.
(next to a much yellower slurry stone)
http://i51.tinypic.com/2lsuuyc.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...7/IMG_1649.jpg
I took two of my Coti's and used my thumbnail to put a scratch on the surface of each one just like the booklet mentioned and Sham and I have talked about after reading the booklet.
The one on the left is softer and a fast cutter. When I scratched it I had a bit of powder on my thumb. The right one is a good deal harder but still scratched a little. So, the one on the left does well with Sham's method with the right one being more of a finisher but you can do water only especially with one like the one on the left. You may ask which vein they come from---I couldn't care less-- only about it abilities to do what I want.
Yes the bevel is set when I go to the Coti.
Interesting - mine really doesn't want to release slurry at all.
This morning, I tried sets of 30 down-and-back strokes with my finger on the blade and literally as much pressure as I'd ever put on a razor. It still didn't produce any visible slurry, but it sharpened very quickly. I started backing off on the pressure after the first few sets, and once the edge felt really good with the TPT, I rinsed the stone and finished with a couple dozen regular X strokes with very light pressure. Shaved like a champ!
I'll definitely be going this route from now on (water-only after I've set the bevel). If nothing else, it's much more simple than constantly adding drops of water, trying to keep the slurry from being pushed over the edge of the stone, etc.
I looked again and the grains different in the one I was think of. My mistake
Northpaw--There you go sounds like you got it--good for you!
i'm going set a bevel on a 1k naniwa. i'd normaly go to coti with slurry dilution. instead i will go with just plain old water and do plenty of half strokes then cleasn hone fresh water and finish with 50 light x strokes. see what happens. and post back. is the right and what sham is wanting us to try .
i spoke to a barber in austrailia last year and he said this was how they were taught. To set bevel on slightly coarser stone and finish on lather with a milk stone which was as we no a coticule.
gary
That is about the best I can figure. If you go by the OP's first post, the OP just says to use the coticule with water. I took that as using the coticule as a finisher. Further down the thread, it is mentioned that the razor is expected to have a bevel set before using the coticule or by using the coticule, your choice. Even further down the thread, it is mentioned that the coticule should auto-slurry with just water and honing strokes. It is also mentioned that the coticule should be washed off before performing a few light finished strokes.
Good luck, let us know how it works.
Edit: Are half-strokes assumed to be used before the finishing stage, or are x-strokes assumed? Is pressure varied through the sharpening stage, or should it be kept constant? Also, if the stone generates slurry through friction with the razor, how is it different than using a slurry stone wear-wise? Is there less slurry generated this way, or would it be the same as if using the slurry stone?
i just tryed it and after bevel was set on a 1k yes i did half strokes on water the trouble is my coticules do not generate any auto slurry. i can say the edge was tpt sharp but i'm not expecting this to be a great shaver. the thing is using slurry diluting and finishing on water i can onestly say its morer enjoyable and it does work for more most. i could do 500 laps even a thousand using back and forth strokes in no time. if i was doing normal x stroke i think it would do my head in. remember i nuster do just that i ended up with neck ache it was bloody hard work. with the back and forth strokes it realy is a piece of cake. i've always noticed finishing on water puts that very sticky feel on the edge as in thats when i notice tpt realy maxes out on water alone . i think some guys carn't get there head round doing 300 to 700 laps etc it does sound crazy. but realy like i say its so quik with back and forth x strokes , then finish on light strokes. i notice lynn starts out with some pressure and finish with 10 light laps when he on 1k and 3k/5k. then he goes light in polishing stages. i have tryed and i have tryed this last year also and the shave shaved but skipped a little i will test and say how it goes.
gary
For a finished edge, I've been using just water, just letting the slurry build on it's own, and just keeping the stone wet and not flooded... basically the method hi_bud_gl outlines.
The edges I get from this process do not pass any 'traditional' tests per se ... HHT, etc...
But I prefer these edges over other stones I currently own because the edges consistently hone up extremely sharp and smooth.
This whole time .... I thought that's how the coticule was supposed to be used.
I do agree w/ JimmyHAD as well. This method fits my style of honing ... if I may be so bold as to claim I have a style.
Ignorance is bliss, I guess haha.
Messing with a number of coticules, using the highest amount of pressure I feel comfortable with in honing a razor, I cannot generate slurry using a Wostenholm pipe razor with water only. As far as using slurry on a coticule, I like it. I feel I get better results on a razor with the bevel already set, beginning with a medium to light slurry, diluting as I progress, and ending finishing on clear water.
Doesn't mean to me that I am right and Sham is wrong. Each of us has to try different methods and see what works for us. When I first came to SRP the big argument was over pyramid versus progressive honing. Turned out both sides have their advocates and both methods work. I guess it is the same with the slurry versus the clear water fellows.
We can debate this stuff and try different stones, different methods and that is part of what makes it fun. Sooner or later we find what agrees with us and stick with what works for us. My take on it anyway. :)
You know Jimmy that booklet I keep bringing up talks about temper of the blade. I honestly think that has a lot to do with the results as well as some Coticules that won't make slurry. He talked about a hard temper being basically a real pain and a medium or low medium temper being much better and ideal for shaving.
Just a thought--------
I confess I gave no consideration to the razor's character having any impact on its ability to generate a slurry during honing. I'm still surprised that it would make any significant difference.
I went and really looked at my Coticule this morning...
TNT = nope, you ain't scratching mine, wet or dry
Auto-Slurry = Very, very, slight at about 5 (finishing pressure)laps
My Coticule is used as a finisher plain and simple, so after I am at shaving sharp (8k level)
5 figure 8's with a DMT 325 to raise a light slurry, then about 10 super light laps using Liam's pigtail stroke.
Dilute to Clear water over the next 10-15 strokes..
(I call that "training" the razor to the stone, and I use it on almost every natural stone)
Finish strokes with clear water, since my Coticule will raise a slight slurry after about 5 laps I dip the razor every 3 laps to make sure it is a clear water finish, and do as many laps as it takes to get the right feel from the razor/stone connection..
Here are pics of my Coticule, color is as close to what I see as accurate as I am capable of, I think it is slightly more Yellow then the pics look.
Dry:
Attachment 52197
Wet:
Attachment 52198
You know it's just a thought and something I may try out since I know of some brands that have a hard temper and at least one known for a medium temper.
Ain't it fun how many ways we can use these tools. To me that's a lot of the fun experimenting with different tools and methods. Sometimes you get a nice surpise and sometimes a dismal failure but it's still a good time:-)
May be a little beside the point here
Dont have a coticule yet so im not able to test
from (1895) Essay on Barbers' Razors, Razor Hones, Razor Stropes & Razor Honing
Quote: use water, oil or lather
Quote: rub with a rub stone untill a thick lather of a rub stone is formed
The hones are segregated by those used with water/shaving lather and those used with oil. Almost always an oil stone and an Escher, Thuringian and Coticule. Oil stones like a Turkey Stone etc are different.
The old books normally mean use a rubber stone on Escher's as well as Thuringian's. Shaving lather on Coticules back then.
This is something that Gerrit/deighaingeal and I were discussing over at WSW that perhaps when we are taking pics of stones, that we should all try using a plain white background...
This is Standard #92 Brightness printer paper for a background on the same Coticule as above... No adjustments after the fact other then to crop the pic...
Dry:
Attachment 52383
Wet:
Attachment 52384
That is a great idea.I have been discussing a coticule that is in another thread with Jarrod of TSS and the shades of the coticule picture are off from from what I believe the actual colors to be now. i will use the white background in any new pictures from now on. Thanks.
Good idea Glen that way we can get a standardized feel for the true color of various items.