What to use for flattening hones?

I would like some advice on what to use for flattening hones. I plan to get a Norton 220/1000 combo or Naniwa stones (do these come in combos?). I've read on using sandpaper. What grit would I need to flatten these hones? Is using sandpaper economical or will I use it up fast? I would be interested in hearing of other alternatives.

I also plan to get a finishing stone for razors. Not sure of what to get at the moment; maybe a barber's hone, or a water stone. I heard the Chinese 12K was a good economical choice, but the Norton and Naniwa are all I've found where I live so far. Can I get one grit for flattening hones or do I need to get more if I go higher: 200 to 10 or 12K hone?

Thanks for help

The DMT d8c is an excellent way to flatten all your hones, even the finer c12k. Just make sure you use lots of water and clear the slurry often or it can damage the dmt hone. You can use sand paper but the grit can get imbedded in your other hones, and you will have to change paper often. imo, the d8c is a better investment in the long run. Good luck!

binder,

+1 on avatar1999s' suggestion of the DMT D8C.

I used to use carbide paper on glass, before finally going to the DMT.

The DMT is far easier and cleaner to use !

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ

Another +1 for the 325 DMT, thats a really useful stone.

I dont advocate spending money you dont need to, but that thing really is worth its weight in gold..!

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Originally Posted by avatar1999

The DMT d8c is an excellent way to flatten all your hones, even the finer c12k. Just make sure you use lots of water and clear the slurry often or it can damage the dmt hone. You can use sand paper but the grit can get imbedded in your other hones, and you will have to change paper often. imo, the d8c is a better investment in the long run. Good luck!

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Quoted for truth. +1

From what I understand the DMT D8C is 325 grit. Would that work to flatten the 220 Norton stone?

What grit would I use for sandpaper or DMT if I wanted to flatten stones from 220 to 12000 grit. Could I get by with one or would I need more?


I don't know how much I will use a flattener at this point, and if I want to spend the money. Will I go through a lot of sandpaper to flatten hones?

I talked to Lee Valley today
Monocrystalline Diamond Bench Stones - Lee Valley Tools
They have DMT bench hones, but the 8'' only have combos and are expensive. I would like to find something in Calgary, Alberta if someone knows of a place to save on shipping.

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Originally Posted by binder

From what I understand the DMT D8C is 325 grit. Would that work to flatten the 220 Norton stone?

What grit would I use for sandpaper or DMT if I wanted to flatten stones from 220 to 12000 grit. Could I get by with one or would I need more?

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DMT also makes a 220 (and even a 120 grit!) plate as well, which comes recommended for lapping really hard hones (like barbers hones). In reality you probably won't find much use for the 220 grit hone unless you're planning to do some heavy restoration work on some really crappy edges.

I still say your best investment would be the DMT 8C (325), as it is an all-round versatile hone. In addition to lapping hones it also comes in handy for edge repairs (such as taking chips out of blades) and for honing other instruments like kitchen knives.

I'm not sure if we have any local vendors here in Alberta that carry the DMT line, but SRD has reasonable prices. Shipping costs for hones really isn't that bad, I've been hosed worse on razors and shaving cream. By far.

I also want to use the 220/1000 for sharpening knives. I'm taking a course for sharpening and I will need water stones for that. I will probably need more than a 1000 for that so I thought I would buy the combo, unless I can use the DMT for the bevel on the knives ( I'll have to see where I take the course).

Will the DMT d8c be enough for the higher grit hones . The person I talked to at Lee Valley suggested using the stones in progression for flattening: flattening the 1000 with the DMT and then using the 1000 Norton to flatten the 4000 etc.

binder,

I use my DMT 325 for all my 'razor' hones (Norton & Naniwa), from 1000 to 12000 'grit', with excellent results ( I only have synthetic water-stones, so can't comment about naturals ).

I have a set of Japanese water-stones ( 600/1000/1500 'grit' ) for knife sharpening, and these also respond excellently to the DMT 325.

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ

Norton also sells a flattening stone.

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Originally Posted by ktinch

Norton also sells a flattening stone.

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True, but from what I've heard they are of varying quality; some aren't even very flat. They are fairly soft and are to be used with Norton hones only.

ktinch,

+1 to Ryans' comments.

I have the Norton flattening stone, and indeed after a few months of use I had to flatten that with 160 grit carbide paper on glass !

I also did not like the finish that the Norton flattening stone gave - the finish from the DMT 325 is vastly superior IMHO.

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ

I have an extra-large flattening stone made by Naniwa. The DMT is nice, but it's often smaller than the stone I'm trying to flatten, and that can be problematic. The Naniwa is about 12" x 6", way bigger than any stone I'll ever flatten, so the stone never goes over the edge. The Naniwa is dead flat and 220 grit, so it leaves a nice finish on the stone that is flattened. Yes, I'll have to flatten it someday, but it looks like that will be years in the future, not months.

For reference, I've used DMTs, wet & dry on glass, and wet & dry on granite. I greatly prefer the Naniwa.

No matter, the DMT is the best bang for the buck period. I don't doubt the Nani is good, the the DMT should be in every arsnel of stones. Many of the honemeisters will tell you the same. Just don't get "lap-happy", I hear of many who wear their stones out more lapping than honing. I personally have a seperate set of stones (which I also recommend) that I use for kitchen knives...but I rarely hone over 3K. Honing knives will wear a stone much more than a razor IMHO...but then again we are talking about a tool versus a delicate instrument.

What would be the difference between the continuous DMT and the ones with holes?

Would 6" x 2" be large enough?

How does the DMT look and feel when honing; does it feel and look like a water stone?

Thanks for the replies

DMTs are made and sold as sharpeners, not flatteners. The ones with holes have a lot less diamond on them and would quickly be destroyed if used as flatteners. The plates will work, but, compared to something like the Naniwa that's made for flattening, they have drawbacks: (1) the coarse diamonds work quickly but will scratch your waterstones, so you'll have to polish out the scratches; (2) the DMTs will stick like crazy to your waterstones; (3) if the edges of the flattener go beyond the edges of the waterstone (or vice versa), there's a very real chance the waterstone won't get perfectly flat.

Wet & dry sandpaper on glass or granite is great, and only has the "stiction" issue. A dedicated flattener like the Naniwa extra large has grooves, so even the stiction problem disappears.

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Originally Posted by wsfarrell

DMTs are made and sold as sharpeners, not flatteners. The ones with holes have a lot less diamond on them and would quickly be destroyed if used as flatteners. The plates will work, but, compared to something like the Naniwa that's made for flattening, they have drawbacks: (1) the coarse diamonds work quickly but will scratch your waterstones, so you'll have to polish out the scratches; (2) the DMTs will stick like crazy to your waterstones; (3) if the edges of the flattener go beyond the edges of the waterstone (or vice versa), there's a very real chance the waterstone won't get perfectly flat.

Wet & dry sandpaper on glass or granite is great, and only has the "stiction" issue. A dedicated flattener like the Naniwa extra large has grooves, so even the stiction problem disappears.

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The problem with the Naniwa lapping stone, much like the Norton version, is that it is meant for Naniwa stones, which are known for their particular softness. It is not an ideal choice for an all-around versatile lapping stone, capable of handling synthetics and naturals alike.

The 3 drawbacks you listed for using the DMT as a lapping stone are not well founded, as many here would attest. I'm not saying that you're dead wrong on all counts, but that there shouldn't be much concern if one chooses the DMT line as a lapping stone of choice.

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Originally Posted by ktinch

Norton also sells a flattening stone.

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I have the norton flattening stone...works great..used it on my coticule and bbw..even barbers hone...the only thing is is that its fairly aggresive...I used 6oo grit sandpaper after to "smooth things out a bit.

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Originally Posted by binder

I would like some advice on what to use for flattening hones. I plan to get a Norton 220/1000 combo or Naniwa stones (do these come in combos?). I've read on using sandpaper. What grit would I need to flatten these hones? Is using sandpaper economical or will I use it up fast? I would be interested in hearing of other alternatives.

I also plan to get a finishing stone for razors. Not sure of what to get at the moment; maybe a barber's hone, or a water stone. I heard the Chinese 12K was a good economical choice, but the Norton and Naniwa are all I've found where I live so far. Can I get one grit for flattening hones or do I need to get more if I go higher: 200 to 10 or 12K hone?

Thanks for help

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Since no one has answered your questions, I will. You could use wet/dry sandpaper in the range of 180 to 600. You could go even lower than that if you need more aggressive removal for initial lapping, as would be required for the first lapping of the Norton 4k. You really don't need to go any higher than 600 grit to "polish" your hone, as any scratches in the hone will have no effect during honing anyway. The use of sandpaper is quite economical, much more so than a DMT if you are only going to use it for lapping just a few hones occasionally. It comes down to a matter of convenience, but if you bought $50 worth of sandpaper, that would probably last longer than the lifespan of a DMT8C.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Since no one has answered your questions, I will. You could use wet/dry sandpaper in the range of 180 to 600. You could go even lower than that if you need more aggressive removal for initial lapping, as would be required for the first lapping of the Norton 4k. You really don't need to go any higher than 600 grit to "polish" your hone, as any scratches in the hone will have no effect during honing anyway. The use of sandpaper is quite economical, much more so than a DMT if you are only going to use it for lapping just a few hones occasionally. It comes down to a matter of convenience, but if you bought $50 worth of sandpaper, that would probably last longer than the lifespan of a DMT8C.

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I am looking to lap some Japanese naturals and am trying to decide between buying a DMT 325 or using wet/dry sandpaper from 320 grit and progress to 600 grit. Some have suggested that by using sandpaper you run the risk of embedding the sandpaper's grit into your stone. From your experience, do you feel this concern has any validity?

any one else have an opinion?

Thank you very much for sharing any insights or experiences.

I have already wore out a DMT8C that I have had less than 2 months. Granted I tried to lap a couple Les Lats with it but even after I stopped using it for them it got progressively duller with each lapping session on coticules, and Naniwas like the 12K stick to it fiercely. Sandpaper is a better value than a DMT for lapping Coticules and Naniwas.

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Originally Posted by BenG

I am looking to lap some Japanese naturals and am trying to decide between buying a DMT 325 or using wet/dry sandpaper from 320 grit and progress to 600 grit. Some have suggested that by using sandpaper you run the risk of embedding the sandpaper's grit into your stone. From your experience, do you feel this concern has any validity?

any one else have an opinion?

Thank you very much for sharing any insights or experiences.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by life2short1971

I have already wore out a DMT8C that I have had less than 2 months. Granted I tried to lap a couple Les Lats with it but even after I stopped using it for them it got progressively duller with each lapping session on coticules, and Naniwas like the 12K stick to it fiercely. Sandpaper is a better value than a DMT for lapping Coticules and Naniwas.

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The DMT company specifically declares that their 120 grit plate is the only one they consider to be used for lapping. They acknowledge that the 220 and 325 (such as the DMT8C) grit hones can be used for lapping WATER stones only. That means you can use the C plate for Nortons or Naniwas, but not any natural stone. Yes, some on this forum have gotten away with it, but others have trashed their plates by doing it. Don't blame the company when you use the plate wrong. NONE of DMT's plates were designed to be used as lapping plates. Their intended purpose is for honing, not lapping, and just because people on this forum recommend the C plate for lapping does not change the fact that the company does not.

FYI, the problem with lapping on the higher grit DMTs is that the grit from the hone undercuts the nickel alloy substrate that hold the diamonds, causing their release.

If you use wet/dry sandpaper, I highly doubt that you will end up embedding any sandpaper grit in your hone. I consider this to be even much less likely on a hard natural stone in comparison to a waterstone. Just in case, you should rub your hand on the surface of the hone after lapping.

The trashed DMT still makes an excellent lapping plate to hold your sandpaper or other mediums instead of SWMBO's counter top.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

DMT also makes a 220 (and even a 120 grit!) plate as well, which comes recommended for lapping really hard hones (like barbers hones).
....snip...
I still say your best investment would be the DMT 8C (325), as it is an all-round versatile hone. In addition to lapping hones it also comes in handy for edge repairs (such as taking chips out of blades) and for honing other instruments like kitchen knives.
,,,,snip...

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Check out the big extra extra coarse DMT especially if you
have the C12K rock. Reduce the number of lapping
strokes by half or more on softer man made hones.
One problem is that the price of a special lap for the
C12K reduces the bargain.

Keep an inexpensive small DMT, Arkansas or Ceramic
thing to rub up the occasional slurry on water hones that
do not come with a nagura (rubbing stone). Something like
a Diamond Sharpening Card for $15 or a small
ceramic pocket hone. Most times you only want
to remove less than half the thickness of a sheet
of paper and a little nagura action will do that as well as
soften any roughness left by the XXC lap.

The bigger the stable of hones you have the more
important a big flat lapping tool can be. For a personal
finishing hone a small 6" DMT bench hone or smaller DMT
sharpening card hone will maintain "flat" well enough that
the razor will see the lapped hone as flat.


There are a lot of ways to skin the cat...

I used to sell Coticules, I'm probably still a vendor for Ardennes. I've lapped hundreds of stones with the DMT C, and the XX. I also use it on the Chinese 12k's. I've been using the DMT C for about 3 years now, it still works fine, it's nice and broken in...I haven't worn mine out. Diamonds are harder than Garnets...Unless the aforementioned Les Latneuse vein is harder than Diamonds, I find it difficult to believe two Coticules trashed it out. It may be worn. YMMV

Its very worn. The Les Lats required a good bit on the backside. And one could still use more. The Dmt still works but it is very slow now.

I'm in Jax, If you want, I have the DMT XX, I'll lapp them for you...

Thank you for the offer. If you've never messed with the Les Lats I would say the are the equivalent of a Arkansas stone on the hybrid side.They are that hard.My DMT was new 2 months ago. I am also considering selling the one I haven't finished yet.

Let me know, I might be interested...

Ok I will Thank you.

Just received my DMT8C 325 from SRD!! Going to lap my nortons now....

I didn't read through the whole thread, so maybe someone's already posted about this:

8" x 2 5/8" DMT 325/1200 combo at Lee Valley, $86.50.

I like more atoma diamond plates rather than dmt

Dmt 325 have more suction effect than Atoma, for the japanese naturals i usually use the atoma 1200 and it's fast and does not scratch the hone

JUST TO CLARIFY, JUST HOW OFTEN SHOULD OUR NANIWA/NORTON STONES BE LAPED IN NORMAL USE AS Str8 HONE'S???

I DON'T DO IT AS OFTEN AS I THINK MOST OF YOU THINK IS RIGHT, JUST TO KEEP WEAR DOWN ON THE STONE'S THEMSELVES.

JUST WONDERING, GREAT THREAD BY THE WAY, LOTS OF GREAT INFORMATION, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

TINKERSD OF SRP.

I'm not an expert like some people in the forum, but i lap on any session especially on naturals

this way i need only a couple of passes to have the stone perfectly flat, if you lap your stone after many session, it takes a lot more passes to have the stone perfectly flat

Just contrary to my habit yesterday i've lapped a knife stone after many session of use, it take about 15 minutes of lapping before the stone was flat again, against the typical couple of passes i normally do

So i really would advice to light lap the stone any session, gaining also the advantage of a flatter stone

Tinkersd,
When cleaning up my stones at the sink I usually rub them face to face (1/4, 4/8, 8/16) at clean-up. I have shapton glass backed stones and use the glass as an indicator to if I "need" to lap them or any other stones. I consider a stone needing lapped if I can see a gap somewhere around a 1/32nd or over. Each and every one of us has our own "gap" maximum. I worry that too many folks are more worried about having perfectly flat stones and are using up their stones lapping them to literal death. My lower grit stones need more lapping as they get more passes on them. Example, I have a shapton gs 16k that after the initial lapping off of the pencil grid I have not lapped it again because each razor that has been on it only needs 8-12 passes. I'm sure it's had at least 100 razors on it since I picked it up in August of this year.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tinkersd

JUST TO CLARIFY, JUST HOW OFTEN SHOULD OUR NANIWA/NORTON STONES BE LAPED IN NORMAL USE AS Str8 HONE'S???

I DON'T DO IT AS OFTEN AS I THINK MOST OF YOU THINK IS RIGHT, JUST TO KEEP WEAR DOWN ON THE STONE'S THEMSELVES.

JUST WONDERING, GREAT THREAD BY THE WAY, LOTS OF GREAT INFORMATION, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

TINKERSD OF SRP.

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There is not really a schedule.
You lap a hone when it begins to dish,
when it begins to glaze over or perhaps when
you want to generate a slurry.

When switching from one hone to another
you want the next hone to have the same
exact profile as the last. Flat is a profile that
is easy to generate.

In my opinion with modern hones
and a single razor the pair can work
together and even when the hone has
developed a lot of hollowing/ dishing
because the razor and the hone developed
their profile together the shave will
not suffer.

I used a coticle for years with a three
razor rotation. Over time it developed
quite a hollow. Because the hone and
the razors shaped each other over years the shave
did not suffer. Years later I discovered
this forum and decided to lap my hone flat.
The flat hone no longer matched the
bevel/ profile of the razors and it took
a lot of effort to reset the bevel of my razors.
Now I have a shelf full of hones...

So my advice is to lap no more than half the thickness
of a sheet of paper from the hone to keep it flat.
Do this each time you pull out the hone, one or five razors.
Leave the slurry on the hone for the first half of the
refresh process. Use the entire hone to minimize dishing.