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So I took the plunge and got a shapton gs16000 for finishing but after a LITTLE playing I realised I have no idea even where to start.
I was wondering If any of you fine people who have or had a gs16000 could share some tricks, experiences info for example I'm still not sure If this is a fast or slow cutter but am pretty sure it's not supposed to glaze up so quick.
anywho thank you in advance.
oh and before the shapton I have a norton 4/8k
I used to have a SGS 16k as well as the Norton 4/8k. Shaptons are very fast cutters and rather fond of themselves, meaning they work best as a system.
My 16k glazed over extremely fast off the 8k and it took a while to get the edge from 8k to 16k, lots of washing off of the 16k. I was able to get the edge wicked sharp, but found that I didn't like the edge i got off the stone. This was a totally personal issue as I was rather fond of the edge off the coticule and later off my Jnats, hence going to a fully natural line up for my razors.
I sold the 16k here and I believe the new owner is very happy with it, I just couldn't tell you who got it :p
Just rub it with your palm under running water and that will clean it right up. The thing I like best about the GS16 is that you can feel the blade getting sucked down onto the stone as it gets sharper. When the suction/sticktion stops increasing you know you are maxed out. It usually only takes about 10-15 laps before I am done.
I use a GS progression of 1,4,8,16,CF. It is extremely easy to overhone with the shapton 16k. I have learned that 8-12 passes is all an edge can take before some negative issues start to arise. If it's one of the softer steels like some sheffields I'll go about 8 x's, if it's harder steel like a TI i'll go about 12 passes. Start with a lesser amount of about 6 x's and try the shave. If it's good, stay there. If it feels like it could use a bit more, go with two more x's & so on until you arive where you want the edge. When stropping after you hone, only go about 10-20 passes until you get the edge where you want it off teh stones, then strop as usual. For me, I have found that stropping right after the stones can hide some edge deficiencies as where straight off the stones tells a better story. This is my experience, take it as you will...
Scott
I like the 16, it's the only Shapton I have. I didn't buy all their gadgets either, and it works just fine. It does load up easily, and as the previous poster mentioned, it does wash off just as easily. It may need lapping due to loading a bit more than other stones, ime. I've mixed it up before, Au Natural, Synthetics and Natural, and just Synthetics...It's all good, like Pizza, Just some are different...
As the one poster mentioned, You do feel the stone sucking the blade to it, I find this stone to be a fast cutter...10 strokes normally by the time I get to it. YMMV, different blades, and different honings, etc, etc, etc....
Here's a couple pics of what I do to elevate this flat, flat stone. Of course, you can put it on another stone, or improvise in some way...I really like these rubber feet, great height, stable, etc...I may have extra, you pay the shipping...
Rich
cool Idea and thank you for the offer, however I'm setting it on an old norton 1/8k I use for my knives and it seems to work ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by zib
I am thinking about getting a piece of timber and maybe putting some rubber on top to steady, but only if my current solution becomes problematic ^_^
Like has been said, you dont want to do many passes on the 16k. Your razor should already be shaveable sharp when you get to it. Its more to put the finishing touches on the edge than any real in depth work.
thanks for starting this thread kalgoorlieboi i just recived the sgs 16000 too . so this is how my stone progression will go soft ark translucent ark coti c12 and then sgs16k
Quote:
Originally Posted by eleblu05
May I ask why you are using 4 different finishing stones?:confused:
+1. All those intermediate finishers are really not making the end result better.Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
That would be like mowing the lawn first with the scythe (the bevel setting), then using a gas powered mover (the sharpening up to 8k) and then using 4 different push reels with slightly lower blade height to end up where you want.
I don't have a Shapton 16k and I don't have a ton of honing experience, but I would suggest that you make sure you can shave off that 8k. I'd heard it from a lot of guys and finally tried it last night. The edge was great! And I bet if you do get a great 8k edge, it won't take much work on the 16k (as others have said) to finish it to where you want. I wouldn't know from personal experience, though....
If you try to make up for a mediocre 8k edge by any finisher, you won't get anywhere. I think I've had enough experience with doing that to give that piece of advice pretty confidently.
This might be completely irrelevant to you, though, if your 8k edges are fine. :)
I am late to this discussion...Quote:
Originally Posted by KalgoorlieBoi
One addition to all the above is to use a thin solution of detergent
with your ultra fine hones. I keep a foaming hand soap handy
next to the kitchen sink. A little bit lets me rinse swarf off
hones and also makes a good honing solution.
Another good cleaner is "simply green" I keep a dilution of
it in a handy spray bottle.
I like detergent because I lightly oil my razors and that tiny little bit of
oil seems to clog the hone but a little detergent wets the hone
and keeps the trace oil from getting in the way.
The jump from an 8k hone to a 16k hone is a bit big. With
the speed of modern hones and good technique it may well
be possible. Since the jump is large and these hones
seem possible of "over honing" a good place to start is with
a couple sets of circles taking advantage of the ends of
the hone. Follow that with 10 perhaps 15 normal light hone
strokes, strop and shave test.
Another point made by others above is that when finished at 8k you should have
a good sharp shaver. It makes sense to shave test your 8K result
and then compare with the change that the 16k gives you. If
the 8k result is not shave sharp then your are not done at 8k and
a revisit to the 4k/8k combo pyramid method makes sense.
thank you, thats great advise.Quote:
Originally Posted by niftyshaving
I'll try to report back by the end of the weekend, I'm gonna give it a go tonight.
wish me luck :gl:
Quote:
Originally Posted by niftyshaving
Shapton makes a point to say not to use detergent on their hones, saying that detergents could damage it. I don't know if its over caution on their part, I've never done it, Shaptons arent cheap.
I use mine as part of a 1/4/8/16k progression and it works well. I'm not a massive fan of the Shapton edges, I find them a little harsh, but what works well is building a slight slurry with a 325 DMT (a method I got from Glen) which softens the edge some. If it was my only finisher, thats how I'd use it all the time.
I dont do many strokes either. Once I come off the 4k I tend to do 20 strokes on the 8k and then 10-20 on the 16k depending on how hard the steel is. If the razor was a bear to hone on the low grits I tend to do 20 on the 16k. If it was really easy I only do 10.
TBH I usually stop at 8k and use a natural stone as a finisher as I prefer the edges they give to a synthetic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubear
Stu makes an excellent point here. You don't need many strokes at the end. Once you set a proper bevel, it truly is the foundation for eveything to follow. 10-20 strokes is pretty much what I do under most circumstances following the 1k....
Of course, Coticules being the exception...
Thanks ... it pays to read the vendor instructions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_S
I would note that when I say detergent I am only adding
the smallest amount to cut the surface tension. And
I always rinse the hone clean...
The guys at the below link have translated the instructions for
a lot of different hones, missing is shapton-glass hones.
Japanese Waterstones: Shapton
The comment on not soaking Chosera hones is interesting.
Japanese Waterstones: Naniwa Chosera
I use the slighttest amounts of dish soap in mine as well (one drop to a bowl of water) for the same reasons (trace amounts of oil on the blades) and have not had any negative effects on mine since the first of August, but the little slip of paper that came with each of my GS's says not to.
I am now very curious why Shapton gives this instruction.Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter74743
Since they know a lot about their hones I would follow
the directions.
Is this only for the GS hones or for all Shapton's?
I'm sure they know much more about their stones than I, however my thoughts is that a little soap (a drop in a bowl) can't be much worse than tap water that has quite a bit of chlorine and God knows what else in it.
If they were that worried about it, they would have recommended distilled water...
What works for me may not work for someone else & I'm not suggesting it considering their price. This just works for me...
Scott
had a go on a couple of razors and found the edge quite harsh, a close shave but not comfortable at all! wen't back to the 8k a few turns and finished on the GS with a lite slurry and am very happy with the results!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubear
IMO give it a go, haha that kinda rhymes
Thank you for the suggestion Stubear
Try a coti or thuri slurry on the 16K, you will love the results...
I used to use detergent on my shapton 16k, too but ceased to do so.
I have the entire shapton glass set now, and use them like god (or shapton) intended to.
Especially the ones from 6k up need to get used to, otherwise you end up with harsh edges.
I find that the GS are very pressure sensitive, yet need a firm stroke.
You want to hold your hand steady but apply minimum pressure on each stone up to 6k,
especially on the 16k and 30k. Otherwise you will end up with microchips
(that I was able to make out under the mikroskope when using too much pressure, or unsteady stroke) that give you harsh shaves.
If done properly (ie. very crisp and fine line under the microscope) you get perfect results.
I switched from single handed X-Stroke with ultra light pressure,
to a two handed, more steady stroke and now get much better results on the GS
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesslemming
Good advice here, I was having issues with my 16K GS hone when I first bought it and had very harsh feeling edges. I now wish I still had it to try the two handed stroke I probably would've learned something if I took my time learning the glass stones.