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I was in Lowes today and I noticed this tri stone hone in the tool dept. obviously it's made for sharpening tools and such, but could it work for a straight? Any help is appreciated, this is the link:
Arkansas Sharpening Stones Set | Featuring fine, medium, & course Arkansas Stones | Smith's - The Edge Experts
I would think they would be too rough to work on razors, Ark stones usually aren't good for razors unless they are the clear translucent ones that are lightly colored and most of the members here still wouldn't use them for their razors, others have different opinions.
If it did I guarantee there would be threads and post saying it does. I've seen the question asked before. I've never had one so cannot speak from hands on experience but my intuition tells me it wouldn't be good for the fine edge of a razor.
Yes; I have one that I actually got from Lowes and it has worked well for me.
Take a look at the quoted grits:
If you want to reset bevels, those stones will work (though they are smaller than the bench-size Nortons, and will take careful work to avoid creating frowning edges).Quote:
Grit:
Medium Arkansas - 600 Grit
Fine Arkansas - 1,000 Grit
Coarse Synthetic
If you want to hone, they're useless -- too coarse. The "honing" stone many people use is a Norton "combination hone" with 4000 and 8000 grit surfaces.
I started out using sandpaper and microabrasive sheets. Cheap if you're only doing a few razors. But they're no "easier to use" than stones -- the same learning curve for both. There's a good article in the Wiki about them.
Charles
So then is it reasonable to pick one up in order to maintain razors, not for restoring a damaged or ruined edge?Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffR
It is entirely reasonable to use one to both maintain and restore razors. I've used mine for both purposes for a couple of years now, and haven't felt the need for anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by joshb1000
I should note that practice is important. I learned to use Arkansas stones from my father over 40 years ago and have been using them ever since. As a young man he was a barber, so showed me how to hone knives and straight razors on a Ouachita stone. (I wish I had paid more attention at the time but Trac II razors were more appealing, so had to re-learn some things when I picked up the straight razor a few years ago.)
I have found that the grit rating of a sharpening medium is relatively unimportant. Please don't misunderstand - the finer the stone the easier it can be to get a fine edge, especially for a beginner. Arkansas stones however have the characteristic that they both grind and burnish metal. That allows one to get a very fine edge - much finer than might be expected based on just their nine-micron-ish particle size.
Thanks for the heads up, i may pick one up, simply for the fact that if i dont like it , i'm only out 30 dollars. Mine if i contact you for tips if i do get it?
Arkansas hones are very very very slow.
I have used a surgical black to get a nice edge but nowadays I prefer other hones (Gnats, Bnats and Jnats).
The various Arkansas stones have been a subject in many threads. As of yet there has been no definitive conclusion. It seems that those who have been shaving a long time ( 20 + years ) and started honing on them have accepted them as providing a reasonable shaving edge. So you can try it if you wish but don't be surprised if it is a very slow process and results in an edge that can be easily beaten by a number of other hones.
Good luck, :)
Here's how I see it -
I have seen a lot of threads about those Tri-Hones. Some guys say they work, others say they don't. The only FIRST HAND accounts I have ever read are from guys who describe them like JeffR. I can't recall any of the guys who I know by reputation saying anything about them one way or the other.
In short, to me it's a gamble.
What I do know is the popular synthetics are tried and true. The Tri-Hone may be $30 while a good set of synethetics will be about $110 for 1k, 3/4/5k and 8k, but I'd rather buy the right stuff the first time. The only exception (for me, at least) would be if you are seriously interested in stones AND have the time, experience, and other equipment to make comparisons.
I'd be happy to share any tips that I can. That said, the senior guys in this thread do have valid points. Another inexpensive option to consider at least for maintenance would be a barber hone. I've never used one but a lot of folks seem to like them.Quote:
Originally Posted by joshb1000
BTW thanks for keeping us all safe so that we can play around with old-fashioned shaving tools.
Sincerely,
Jeff
The abrasive in Arkansas stones, novaculite, is considerably softer than aluminum oxide, SiC and diamond. It'll sharpen carbon steel reasonably well, but it is a poor choice for stainless and very hard steel tools. Also, the smith hones are too course for anything besides nick removal and bevel setting on razors.
If you are looking for an inexpensive stone for sharpening things other than straight razors, norton crystolon (SiC) stones are cheap, reasonably fast and will sharpen almost any steel.
i appreciate all the tips, i may pick up a set for just 30$, its not big loss if i dont like it. Plus, with taxes coming back, i'll probably pick up the norton set on straightrazordesgns.com as well. Like i said i'm not looking to hone professionally by any means, but i love the restoration process, so i figure if i'm going to start something i may as well finish it too. Thanks again for all you help and support.
arkansas stones are some of the best stones there is everyone goes on about all these other natural stones and how good they are without realising they are the same or very similar charnely forrest stones are exactly the same but you don't hear anyone saying they're crap stones arkansas are slow because they polish instead of abrading the steel and you can sharpen any steel you like with them people who say you cant sharpen stainless or very hard tool steels with them obviously have never used them as they excell at polishing hair splitting edges on extremely hard steel they might be softer than some materials but they will take years of proper use before needing lapping and are known to destroy diamond plates used for lapping i've used nothing but arkansas stones to finish knives for thirty years and use them for my razors to get really fine edges you need to go to the black surgical stone which will put mirror finishes on any steel type your better of buying proper bench stones from someone like halls rather than tri hone set ups but you can get the try hones with soft hard and surgical black which is so called because of it's use to sharpen medical and dental tools you need a little patience but if you progress through the different grades it's faster than just going from a corse stone to surgical black i think they are well worth the time and effort needed and are a lot cheaper than the popular naturals and do just as good if not better if you don't have the time or patience choose something else
It's funny you bring up the Smith's Tri hone. That's what I honed my first two razors on about a year and a half ago. It was the razor I had sitting in my drawer for 20 years and the one I got from my barber. I actually got both razors to shave fairly decent and I shaved with both of them for the first few weeks until I ordered my Dovo Bismark from SRD. When it came in the mail and I shaved with it for the first time, I learned what a razor should shave like. I was never able to duplicate that kind of edge until I got my set of Nortons. The last post said something about not having to lap them anytime too soon. That may be the case with the medium and fine but I know when I hone a knife on the course, I always have a lot of grit that comes off in the process which tells me it would need to be lapped. Now granted, you would only want to use the course for setting a bevel. The one thing that bothered me with my Tri hone is the stones are not that wide or long and you are constantly having to draw both the toe and heel across the edge of the stone. Hey! if you get it and find it doesn't work well, you still have a good hone for your pocket knives.
kcarlisle it sounds like your tri hone is the one that has a silicone carbide coarse stone and a soft and hard arkansas if so the silicone one is the one that releases the grit arkansas stones don't release grit like that they don't have a grit rating they're measured by density but the particle size is extremely small as they're of the quartz family you will get great edges with the soft better with the hard but for really fine polished edges like you want on a razor you need the surgical black mirror polished edges you can see your eye colour in and split hairs length wise compared to the highly polished edge from the hard but they say the true translucent is as big a difference again although expensive as the rarest arkansas worth a try one day
I am exactly that person that Randy mentioned, I started with a straight razor and a very fine Ouachita Snow White stone, that back in 1981, when I bought it that puppy it ran me $105...
I don't do knives, I do razors
Now as somebody that had maintained two straight razors for over 25 years and never used anything but that Arkansas stone and was very happy with the shaves... I will tell you right here and now that they is simply no comparison at all, not even in the same realm of sharpness and smoothness from the other "Razor qualified natural stones, and the proved Synthetics.. I can beat the shave off an Arkansas with my eyes shut and hopping on one foot with my other stones...
Not to even get too deep in the consistency issues... Once I learned on the other stones I have never looked back...
Honing with Arkansas stone is possible, and "quaint", but for Straight Razors in would not recommend it to my worst enemy...
That being said, I keep that cherished first hone, and one razor that has been honed on it, and actually shave on it now and then to remind myself of where I started at...
I want to see that in the next video ! :rofl2:Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Quachita!!!! is the lowest grade would you expect great shaves using the lowest grade norton??? you could shave of a soft or hard arkansas also but when you step up to the surgical black you get an unbelievable edge and ultra smooth shave the translucent would be even better just like any other type of stone if you don't use the right grade for your purpose you wont get the results you want
And there lies the problem with your recommendation...
With naturals I am sure you understand that it is each stone, that counts, not a general characterization of the stones...
So therefore My Snow White could very well be a much better polisher than any Black Surgical/Translucent there is no way of knowing unless you honed on it or I honed on your Surgical Black/Translucent...
So to say, that a Newb buying a Surgical Black could very well get a dud stone also, and never even realize that doing 100-300 laps is totally a waste of time ... Where then the consistency issue rears it's ugly head, to expect anyone but a true expert honer to do even 100 laps without messing up is a lot... Yet to have a newb try that is a joke, sorta like me honing Blindfolded and Hopping on one foot...
Your trying to compare knife honing with razor honing and with me, you are going to hit a brick wall every single time...
I would not recommend any Arkansas stone for a "new" razor honer let alone a $30 tri hone system... I don't even really recommend natural stones of any kind to Newbs, it adds another variable into an already complicated art...
:beer1:
Sorry, I didn't read all the repies. I can tell you this, I have a tri hone system myself. They do come in handy, and yes, you can use them for razor, You just need a good finisher, they're good for bevel work, chips, etc...
Also, if you get one at Hall's Arkansas stone, Jim Hall will put any stones you want in it.
So, if you want a Soft Arkie, a Translucent, and a Surgical Black, He'll hook you up, if not, let me know, and I'll help you out...
I will definitely take all the great advice into consideration, and finally decide so then I think my question becomes what should I start with, A norton set from SRD or another choice? As I have been saying I want to get into therestoration aspect but can't see myself restoring the blade and scale then having to send it out to be honed, I may as well learn myself so I'm looking for recommendations.
norton, naniwa,shapton, coticule, pastes, whatevah.
Get proficient with whatever system you decide to with before you even think about buying more hones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshb1000
gssix when the stones are tested for density and graded by a reputable miner i'm confident in they're consistency there may be a little variation in arkansas stones and if you can pick it you must be better than me,unless it's rock that's formed in small pieces it's sometimes thousands of tons formed in one piece that is the same through out my family have worked in quarries for several generations,is your snowy white softer than another piece of quachita maybe is it a better polisher than surgical black definitely not if you don't believe that talk to the people that mine the noviculite,i guess all of us that do more than 100 laps without messing up are expert honers what makes honing a razor so difficult?? why can't a "newb" learn to use any stone they want?? it's not rocket science yet it's shrouded in the not for newbs mystery the design allows for extreme ease of sharpening and i'm not comparing it to knife honing,honing knives isn't that hard either but requires more concentration than a razor no need to be a physics wizz to succeed in this already complicated task,if you read the posts properly you would have read that i said bench stones would be better definitely didn't recommend a tri-hone i don't tell others to use something that i never would and there was no other recommendation of any stones just what i have experienced over years of use
I purchased the tri-hone setup two months ago, but my intention was to sharpen my pocket knives with it. It works fine for pocket knives, is inexpensive and convenient. I haven't considered using the coarse stone for anything, but I might give it a try as a bevel setter to allow me to set a bevel with less pressure than I've found necessary with my 220 and 1K Nortons. After breadknifing (the only part of honing at which I am currently proficient), I've had to spend hours on either the 220 or the 1K with no pressure. I usually get impatient with the time that takes and start using pressure to get the bevel set more quickly. Doing that has produced poor results and ugly bevels, so I may try the coarse stone tomorrow and move up from there to the 600 and switch over at at that point to the 1K Norton. Given my results so far, it's worth a try.
+1 on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
The modern man made water stones are just too good.
There is a reason the 8K or better hones cost what they do.
The tri-hone kits are OK for knives but the finest hone in the
Tri-hone kit is less than ideal so why pay for the the other two
that we know are wrong.
Having said bad things -- the tri-hone kit is great for what
it does well but razors are not on that list.
Better to bid $15 on a small Carborundum 101 Razor hone in the
last 30 seconds and try to get lucky on eBay.
Wow Glen,Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Getting a good shaving edge off a washita (Ouachita) is hard core. I don't think I could do that.
I have got very refined silky smooth edges off of translucents. The surface has to be very smooth and the razor should be refined to an 8k level first. Then you are looking at many laps and good concentration. I do it for fun once in a while and rarely dissapointed for the extra time spent, but I can totally understand why you pros would not do it all the time. I use water with a little dishwashing soap.
I have never used them for bevel work with so many faster alternatives. Even most oil stone users opt for carb stones for the preliminary work these days. I think if you are going to use the trihone for razors, it would be wise to prep the stone properly, making sure the edges are well chamfered and if the surface is grainy by giving it a bit of lapping on sandpaper and trying it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alucard73
I read you recommending a Tri-hone/Arkansas to a newb Razor restorer which in my experience with Razors is a waste of money... I also read the infamous Honing is easy statement, which I so love to see as I count the posts in the Hones, Honing, and Beginners Forums, on all of the Razor fora of guys that are asking for help because it is sooooooo easy...
Basically saying it nicely, I think you wrong :)
Now all that being said, Yes you can use any stone you want, but in my life I have learned that numbers never lie... And at this time I don't know of one person that hones any number of razors that actually hones on a Arkansas stone.. as I said before it is "Quaint" and you can maintain a good shaving edge on them, but when a Newb looking to Restore razors asks what stone he should use that is not my first choice or even in the running in fact that would be the last stone if all else fails option...Now I understand that stung your feelings as you seem to have a true love for the stones but I am sorry that is just the wrong choice of stone in this case....
Now if you would like to discuss the qualities of Arkansas stones further I would be happy to do so by PM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingfish
Not hardcore, that stone is what I was told I needed, I didn't know better, there was no SRP back then... I did 40 or so laps on that stone using honing oil evey week or so and it kept my two razors shaving .... Life was simple...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ace
It is your technique not the stones, you are trying to cut a "Pre-bevel" after the bread-knifing, which is another restoration trick, by using honing techniques and you need a whole different approach...
It honestly takes less than 6 minutes to do that when you do it correctly...
there is an actual Vid of me cutting one at the Spokane meet....
It takes HOURS of honing to cut a "Pre-bevel" it takes minutes when done correctly and you will get an even bevel...
Breadknifing is for extreme restoration not honing a razor!!! and often times I regret writing that thread because now that it has been added to the Wiki much of the original intent has been lost...
Ok everyone I wasn't trying to start any type Of argument. I had just noticed a tri stone setup at Lowes that's all. I obviously see that it's not a good choice for razors. After this thread it looks like I'll be going with the norton combo set at SRD. Thanks for all the input everyone.
Not to worry Josh, we all like the Discussions that come out of these threads and often times we learn from them...
I know I do anyway...
Good thing you brought it up. Otherwise you might have spent $30.00 that you can now put towards your wise decision to buy the Norton set. As gssixgun said, "Discussions that come out of these threads and often times we learn from them..."Quote:
Originally Posted by joshb1000
I hope that those who are new to honing and have read this thread will also learn that breadknifing, the nuclear option, is not a honing technique. Some say it is a restoration technique. I learned the hard way that it is not a technique at all but a mistake. Sometimes looking for an easier softer way ends up being double hard. :)
Washitas of that grade are actually very hard to find according to Richard Hall. I think you made a good investment because that particular stone is no longer mined. It is his favorite stone for knives and has a following among some tool sharpeners too as it was considered a fast stone in it's day. I prefer synthetics for tools at that level.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun