Arkansas Novaculite vs. Belgian Coticule

Has there been much comparison between the Arkansas Novaculite and the Belgian Coticule?

I see many hones mentioned, but little about the Arkansas Novaculite, which I understand is Latin for razor stone. Yet there is more discussion around the coticule’s and Japanese stones :thinking:

I would suspect these Arkansas Black and Translucent hard stones’ to have characteristics similar to a Belgian Coticule.

Are the Arkansas stones good 'go-to' stones for razors or should they be left to sharpening chisels and knives?

If Chinese 12k stones are slow, Arkansas stones are glacial. They're extremely hard, don't give up slurry easily, and work better with oil than water. They're okay if you can apply some pressure (like with a chisel), but you can't do that with a razor. Honing a razor on one is sort of like honing on glass.

a coti is light years faster then an ark translucent the coti that i use takes about 50 to 100 round trips to finish a razor my translucent which is a fast cutter for a translucent takes about 200 to 400 round trips to finish and thats just my stones both stones you inquired about are natural stones so results will vary but when its all said and done my coti gives a very comfortable edge my translucent gives a refind :tameshigiri:edge with the same comfort that my coti gives

If you're interested in whetstones like the Ark, Belgian, among many others go to this link and skim the contents. Much info of interest to be mined from the geological survey of Arkansas circa 1892.

Annual report of the Geological ... - Google Books

Thanks for the replies.

I have my coti, and I found some of my dad's Arkansas hard stones, some were used with oil (dark) and some were used with water (translucent).

I was wondering the sequence, and it sounds like I would use my coti following the dilucot method and finish with one of the Arkansas stones. Since I am using only water with the coti, I feel I should also only use an Arkansas that was only used with water. Not sure if mixing results with a water coti with an oil Arkansas would be 'the best' idea.

Any thoughts/comments?

i use oil with my ark translucent if your worried about the stone darking it wont it not a porous stone its the hardest stone i have and the water will just sit on top of the stone

Arkies are used with oil, Coti's water. You'd be better off starting with the Arkies, and using your Coticule as a finisher, not the other way around, IMO. Arkies are more associated with Tools, Knives, etc...Coti is associated with Razors. I have extensive collections of both. I don't use my Arkansas stones for razors, although some guys do.
I find I get a much smoother shave off a Coticule than any Arkansas stone. Also, I don't follow any specific method, like dilucot. You have to learn your individual coticule, every Coti is different, some fast, some slow...etc....

Save your Arkies for your knives, Use your Coticule for your razor, I think you'll be much happier....

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Originally Posted by zib

Save your Arkies for your knives, Use your Coticule for your razor, I think you'll be much happier....

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That sounds like good advice. I've been using my coti for a while and love the results; was more curious about others experiences around the Arkies since I just found them and wondered the usefulness. The Ark stones I have were my dad's, and he had used the dark with just oil, and the translucent with just water. I do not believe it was an absorption concern, but rather a quick identifier as to which liquid to use with the stone.

I'll have to try them on a couple of test razors I have for refining my skills.

Thanks

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Originally Posted by SkyDiver

I would suspect these Arkansas Black and Translucent hard stones’ to have characteristics similar to a Belgian Coticule.

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Why would you suspect this?

Or did you really only mean that they may perhaps leave a similar edge?

To a geologist, there is a world of difference between the 2 - coticules are sedimentary rocks with garnets suspended in fossilised clay; whereas novaculites are much harder, metamorphic type rocks.

As they are harder, they are also much slower cutters/polishers than coticules.

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Originally Posted by Scipio

Why would you suspect this?

Or did you really only mean that they may perhaps leave a similar edge?

To a geologist, there is a world of difference between the 2 - coticules are sedimentary rocks with garnets suspended in fossilised clay; whereas novaculites are much harder, metamorphic type rocks.

As they are harder, they are also much slower cutters/polishers than coticules.

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My statement alone obviously identifies me as a non-geologist :beer1:
My reference to similarity was toward their both being natural stones, and both need slurry to be effective at different levels. I understand the cutting speed will also be different at a base level.

Ok, fair enough - they are similar in that they are natural hones. I have found that any hone will cut faster with slurry, but the only natural hone I have ever found to work at different levels if you will, are coticules via the application of slurry and various dilutions. I can set a bevel with a coticule and take a razor's edge to shave ready with the same stone and no others. I have heard it may be done on a Thuringian but have neither the time nor the patience. I don't believe the hard arkansases and any novaculite stone for that matter would be able to bevel set even with slurry. I can imagine it is possible per se, but not in the average lifetime - they are simply too slow for the job.

Like the other fellows have said, Arkansas stones are "oil stones" and aren't generally used with a slurry. The soft Arkansas variety can actually cut fairly fast, but the harder varieties are prettly slow cutters and I would agree that they are better for final polishing.

I haven't used them, but I believe it when the guys who use coticules say they are faster than Arkansas stones.

washita and soft ark are great bevel setters that will leave a great bevel with out micro chipping

arkansas's are my favourite stone they may be slower than others but there are no words to properly describe the edge they give,on a trashed edge it can take a couple hours to get a super smooth edge depending on the steel and how bad it was to start,sharpening a blunt blade with no damage or flattening can take 15 to 30 minutes on real hard blades it can be longer i feel it's worth it for the smoothest edge i've ever seen

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Originally Posted by Alucard73

i feel it's worth it for the smoothest edge i've ever seen

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Have you felt the edge of an Escher?

comparing the two stone is like comparing apples to oranges ark translucent is much harder i cant say the ark is finer because i never felt and ecsher edge but and ark translucent leaves a very fine edge . what ever grit rating norton has out on the translucent i dont pay attention to that because the translucent doesnt cut like any other stone one of the reasons is because it is a very dense stone the denser the stone the finer the finish

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Originally Posted by Alucard73

arkansas's are my favourite stone they may be slower than others but there are no words to properly describe the edge they give,on a trashed edge it can take a couple hours to get a super smooth edge depending on the steel and how bad it was to start,sharpening a blunt blade with no damage or flattening can take 15 to 30 minutes on real hard blades it can be longer i feel it's worth it for the smoothest edge i've ever seen

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How many different stones have you tried? Have you ever shaved off an Escher, or maybe A Charnley, or any Japanese Natural hones. That's a bold statement, when there are finisher's out there costing thousands of dollars....

I have many hones, including a dozen or Arkies, Washita, Hard, Soft, Translucent, Surgical Black, even the Tri Hone system.
I used to sell them for Jim Hall. Arkies are great hones, don't get me wrong, but IMHO, they're aren't that great for razors, not when you have Escher (Thuringian) Charnley, Japanese Naturals, and even Coticule.

I'd be glad to do the Pepsi Challenge with a Translucent against, say, an Escher?

every butcher and slaughterman has they're own stones and nearly all use different ones i've tried more stones than i can remember and most i don't remember what they were called,even used some of the stones the proffessional sharpeners used they always had heaps of them, escher and coticule two natural japanese a heap of synthetics including two jap synthetics and one that was like orange clay very soft all were faster than arkansas's but could never get the same amount of polish,the best was the soft clay like one a very close second to arkansas though

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Originally Posted by Alucard73

every butcher and slaughterman has they're own stones and nearly all use different ones i've tried more stones than i can remember and most i don't remember what they were called,even used some of the stones the proffessional sharpeners used they always had heaps of them, escher and coticule two natural japanese a heap of synthetics including two jap synthetics and one that was like orange clay very soft all were faster than arkansas's but could never get the same amount of polish,the best was the soft clay like one a very close second to arkansas though

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That's twice now...

When we are talking on here (SRP = Straight Razor Place) we assume that you are talking about honing straight razors... If you are talking about knives, please, please, tell us in advance so we know where you are coming from... Not that we don't listen, but at least we understand that you are talking about two totally different things...

It will avoid "discussions" like this one,, in the future..

Thank you

cf is in the family of Novaculite

i've shaved and sharpened straights since i was sixteen and there is not much difference between quality knife steel and that used in razors,a polished edge is a polished edge but if it makes you happy i will describe every little detail involved in what i'm contributing and i don't care if it's twice now either you can keep count if you want,by the way i never got a reply to my answer to your pm does that mean i was correct

No actually you were wrong, and if you had bothered to read the entire PM that I sent, you would have realized that... but you obviously believe what you want about Arkansas stones...

Now you have decided that your pet stone is the best, it it might very well be for "Your Face" you basically have to understand that in the grand scheme of Straight Razor use you have a very small minority opinion..
Very very few people share the view that ANY Arkansas stone can beat the other Naturals or Synthetics out there..
Now you can continue to tilt against windmills all you want, but please understand that you are going to continue to run into those of us that are going to continue to disagree wholeheartedly against you and your opinion ..

The only real detail that matters to us, is if you have ever shaved with a Razor honed with any stones that are considered to be a "Razor" hone, and not a knife hone.. Or if you had spent some time learning to use any other hones on razors??? Not discounting your opinion here of course, but there are way to many of us that have used way to many stones and a few of use that have not only tried these edges on our faces, but have sent these edges to 1000's of people across the world ..
So when you tell us with such Passion, that the Arkansas stones are the best there is, we tend to think perhaps you might be just a "Touch" biased or maybe a bit inexperienced in forming your opinion...

Also another thing to consider, is that most "Knife" people that make the statement you just did, tend to change their tune after learning to hone Straight Razors correctly with a light touch and not the heavy hand of a knife sharpener... Others, continue to hone wth a closed mind, a heavy hand, and a know it all attitude, and never really get the most out of their straight razors...

Now personally I dont really care which direction you decide to take in your straight razor path, all we can do is try and help you,,, But when you voice your opinion about Arkansas stones on this forum, you can expect to hear from many of us that that disagree with it...



To the OP:

If you are comparing a Good Coticule to Arkansas stone then you will find the Coticule a much friendly hone to use.. Even if you want to toss in the Charnley Forest which is considered a Razor hone and a Novaculite it is still not as easy to master as the Coticule on straight razors...

Note to Alucard73 did you notice the way I answered that, not once did I ever say any of them give a "better" edge...

I've many hones: Thuringian, Coticules (yellow and blue), Naniwa 12000 and Chinese 12K, Norton 4000/8000 and Arkansas Translucent extra fine and hard.
Since 3 years I'm honing my razors and I personally find the Arkansas Hard, for me, to be the best as a finisher.
I use the arkansas after the coticule after I bought 2 extremely fine and sharp NOS swedish Eskiltuna razors and contacted the vendor how he honed the razors.
He explained to me that he used the method of his father and grand-father, all barbers like him: coticule and then Arkansas hard as a finisher.
Only 5 minutes are required on the Arkansas.
I bought the Arkansas hone offered on his website and got the same fine results on all of my razors, even those that were supposed not to be good shavers...
The arkansas hone is a translucent, but not the wax-type you see on the pictures.
If lighted with a lamp the stone is only translucent up to the middle of the stone...and has a very light greenish brown color.

Ive got an ark, and I'll admit, it leaves a good shaving edge. But my Eschers are unrivalled. Just a single trial is all it takes...

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Originally Posted by Scipio

Ive got an ark, and I'll admit, it leaves a good shaving edge. But my Eschers are unrivalled. Just a single trial is all it takes...

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Have you ever heard the expression??? that we use a lot over on this side of the pond,,, Something about leading a horse to water :D
This entire site does that, some just chose to take another path :shrug: :shrug:
Oh well that is what makes it so interesting :D

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Have you ever heard the expression??? that we use a lot over on this side of the pond,,, Something about leading a horse to water :D
This entire site does that, some just chose to take another path :shrug: :shrug:
Oh well that is what makes it so interesting :D

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Sorry man, I forgot. I didn't intend to indirectly affect the market forces for Eschers.

Actually I retract my statement....Eschers aren't that great at all...they are merely caviar. People only desire them due to their expense. So called 'Giffen goods.' A rise in price makes them even more desireable.

Naniwa 12Ks are way better. The best darn finisher out there. Synthetics can not be beat.

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Originally Posted by Scipio

Sorry man, I forgot. I didn't intend to indirectly affect the market forces for Eschers.

Actually I retract my statement....Eschers aren't that great at all...they are merely caviar. People only desire them due to their expense. So called 'Giffen goods.' A rise in price makes them even more desireable.

Naniwa 12Ks are way better. The best darn finisher out there. Synthetics can not be beat.

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:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

I thank all the input and feedback. Cheers to all :beer1:
After all is said and done, since I now have a nice translucent Arkansas in addition to my coticule standard, I'll just have to try them out, using the coticule dilucot, then finish on the Ark and test.

I use Arkansas stones very rarely these days. They're just that much harder to use that I prefer my belgians or shaptons. When I have used Arkansas stones, I used them dry as I found they work better for me that way. Surgeons used to use Arkansas stones but surgeons don't sharpen their tools anymore. They use tools designed for single use. Dental hygienists use Arkansas stones but that is due to tradition and them not really knowing about other stones. I've spoken with a number of hygienists about this and they say they use them because that's what they were taught in school.

Glen i don't see why my opinion is such a problem for you as others don't seem to mind,in my first post i said arkansas's are "my favourite" stones and then described some of my experience with them and said at the end i said i feel it's worth it for the smoothest edge "i've" ever seen,then i was asked what stones had i used so i stated what i could remember i guess i should have said not only did i sharpen my knives on them i either borrowed the stone or took my razor to work,it was just easier to write it the way i did but if it will make you happy i will include every last detail,as for knife sharpening there should be no need for pressure if there is you need to go down a grit as preesure will fold the edge over and then need to be sharpened away to get to a sharp edge,to get that really sharp polished edge on a knife the actual edge is really fine just like on a razor even the edge angle is similar,if i thought i knew it all i would not be on this site in the first place and yes i have learned a lot and i do use what i have learned some of it is not for me the other i still do,don't worry i wont be replying to you in future as you detract from the enjoyment i get from the site

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Originally Posted by Howard

I use Arkansas stones very rarely these days. They're just that much harder to use that I prefer my belgians or shaptons. When I have used Arkansas stones, I used them dry as I found they work better for me that way. Surgeons used to use Arkansas stones but surgeons don't sharpen their tools anymore. They use tools designed for single use. Dental hygienists use Arkansas stones but that is due to tradition and them not really knowing about other stones. I've spoken with a number of hygienists about this and they say they use them because that's what they were taught in school.

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For the surgeons I am not sure that is entirely true, I remember hearing about one surgeon who was using some high end wood carving knives and loved them but found that the handles did not stand up to autoclaving. He liked the ergonomics that this one maker had used over the standard blades.

All of our surgeons use single-use scalpel blades with a reusable handle.

I just got a bench size stone from a reputable geologist-vendor. I was excited on the prospect of having a full size stone to make finishing easier on the translucent. Unless the surface calms down, it will be a tool sharpener and never see a razor. It has very slight inconsitancies on the surface. Vendors of Arkansas stones know little about razor honing at the level that most here understand and that makes getting one suitable for razor honing very difficult IME.
Can you get an buttery smooth edge? Absolutely, providing you have a really smooth stone. I use my smaller one with soapy water and the metal it is removing is very minimal. At that level it does not take forever and if you had a really good translucent, you should try the edge for yourself and be the judge. They can have their place for a final finish, but buying a good one for high end razor honing is a real crap shoot IME.

Kingfish i'm curious as to who you got it from as my first two were from smith's and the ones i have now are from hall's,all have been properly finished and flat all i did was round off the edges,other than that i just used them with soapy water on my razors and knives,a couple other members had issues but i can't remember the details,there are some translucents sold as seconds because they have inconsistencies in the surface and are not meant to affect sharpening don't know what that means exactly because i wouldn't buy one of them even for knives,could it be possible that's what you got

dans whetstones are the best for ark's hall's i got a good translucent but the hard / soft was trash

ark's are classified by specific gravity not grit

with the price of translucent they should be perfect in my opinion but even softs and hards should be too,if not i would consider sending them back even for knives you need a flat stone for best results and it's not like you can lapp them flat easily

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Originally Posted by Alucard73

with the price of translucent they should be perfect in my opinion but even softs and hards should be too,if not i would consider sending them back even for knives you need a flat stone for best results and it's not like you can lapp them flat easily

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Stone was not a second. I will hold back judment on it until it breaks in some more.