J-Nat evaluation by KC Crew

Scope:
To evaluate the effectiveness of using Japanese natural hone stones from bevel set progression to final finish.

Method:
For testing purposes, three different razors were honed by three different persons. All stones were lapped and edges chamfered on a DMT 325 plate. To eliminate chance of cross contamination, all slurries were raised by using a DMT 1200 plate.

Results:
qFirst stone pictured is an Amakusa natural stone approximate grit range 1500 to 2000. Bevel set was achieved on each razor by using the normal method of sharpening via circles, x-pattern and full straight pass strokes. No evidence of micro-chipping or abnormal fatigue on any of the razors edge was observed under magnification.

qSecond stone pictured is a Tsushima natural stone approximate grit range 5500 to 6500. Razors edge was further refined in the normal use of honing motions of circles, x-patterns and full straight passes. Visual inspection of the various blades under magnification indicated the razors edges to be uniform and consistent with a 6000 grit stone.

qThird stone pictured is a Shoubudani Kiita (yellow stone) approximate grit range 8500 to 10000. All three razors honed on this stone achieved shave capability by making standard x patterns and full straight pass motions. Visual inspection and edge cutting ability on hair indicates all three razors edge progression is accomplished.

Conclusion:
Positive results with bevel set and progression to shave readiness completed. Further edge refining and polishing was done on each of the test razors using a combination of natural finishing stones. This test was conducted to help better understand the capabilities of using only natural stones as an “alternative” approach to properly hone a razors edge.

Natural stones exhibit inherent variations that can not be predicted. Grit ranges of Japanese naturals are in approximations due to the break down of particulate size during the honing process. This test does not detract from using synthetic stones nor does it promote the belief that one way is more effective than the other. Have fun.
Mike:tameshigiri:

Nice post. I gotta say the Amakusa is a beautiful stone.

Thanks rjezuit, I don't know if the thanks button is working. Some of the guys thought it was a piece of wood when they first saw it. The Tsushima is a special stone too. It almost feels like a chunk of steel.
MIke

nice looking red amakusa,
is that Tsushima the ones that are mined from the sea or mountain one?
If I am not wrong you forgot to post results for the Nakayama?

How long approximately did it take to set bevel on the Amakusa?

very well done modine love the stone progression thanks for the post that Amakusa is a beautiful stone i believe its an Amakusa red which is around 600 grit but thats not counting the stone particle's breaking down the Amakusa white is around 1500 -2000 here's mine Amakusa red

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mainaman

How long approximately did it take to set bevel on the Amakusa?

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It didnt take long at all when I used it!

Thanks for the writeup and the eye candy. That Amakusa made my heart beat faster. :)

Guys, I am really happy oyu did this. Those Amakusa taunt me. Can I ask where you got yours? It can be hard to find a reputable dealer for those--the ones at the hardware store all look like junk.

Stefan, Tsushima hones are all "from the sea", whatever that means.

I was just searching for the lower and middle grit Japanese naturals to try a progression just the other day...

Thanks for a nice write up...

Now I gotta actually try this out, I have wanted to have a progression like this just for my Kamisoris, kind of a fun traditional way of doing them just for me :)

:rock:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimR

Guys, I am really happy oyu did this. Those Amakusa taunt me. Can I ask where you got yours? It can be hard to find a reputable dealer for those--the ones at the hardware store all look like junk.

Stefan, Tsushima hones are all "from the sea", whatever that means.

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there are mountain ones too but rare.
amakusa here in US can be found @ hidatool and the epicurean edge

Wow you call that a stone. They look like bricks. There hugh. Very nice looking stones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimR

Stefan, Tsushima hones are all "from the sea", whatever that means.

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Not all Tsushima hones are from the sea.
There have been 2 mines in Tsushima.
They are called 山砥 (hone from mountain) and 海砥 (hone from sea).
The hone from mountain is harder and need no protection on the sides. The hone from the mountain is very rare now so many may think that all hones are from sea but it is not true.
I have a rare big hone from the mountains.

To back up what I am writing I put a link to a hone from the sea seller (It is in Japanese but I think you can use google or other translater)

’·�茧‘Δn“u�Î�y“V‘R“u�Î�z[STMX]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrNaka

Not all Tsushima hones are from the sea.
There have been 2 mines in Tsushima.
They are called 山砥 (hone from mountain) and 海砥 (hone from sea).
The hone from mountain is harder and need no protection on the sides. The hone from the mountain is very rare now so many may think that all hones are from sea but it is not true.
I have a rare big hone from the mountains.

To back up what I am writing I put a link to a hone from the sea seller (It is in Japanese but I think you can use google or other translater)

’·�茧‘Δn“u�Î�y“V‘R“u�Î�z[STMX]

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Dr. Naka, thanks for that link. I can read it just fine. Interesting...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimR

Dr. Naka, thanks for that link. I can read it just fine. Interesting...

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Jim about amakusa in Japan, you probably have seen this
ç¥çŸ³ã�®å³¶å¤©è�‰ - ã€�アパレルプãƒç”¨å“�ã�Œå®‰ã�„ï¼�ã€‘ç¸«è£½å· ¥å´ã�‹ã‚‰å…¨å›½ã�®æ‰‹ä½œã‚Šã‚·ãƒ§ãƒƒãƒ—・個人ã �•ã‚“ã‚’å¿œæ�´ã�—ã�¾ã�™
but thought I'd post it.
Interestingly enough they make fire places with those stones hehe.

i did test the last stone in The picture.
It is fine stone and slow cutter.
would be the worth having it? i should say yes.
Took me a little longer then i was expecting sorry Mike.
Definitely i could put it same level as escher and you don't have to know whole a lot to use it.
hope this helps

Thanks Sham,
The search continues for an even finer faster stone. That's the problem, you don't know unless you test them side by side. I know looks don't mean a thing when it comes to performance. That's the western mentality. I know there are finer stones out there... hmmmm
Mike

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MODINE

Thanks Sham,
The search continues for an even finer faster stone. That's the problem, you don't know unless you test them side by side. I know looks don't mean a thing when it comes to performance. That's the western mentality. I know there are finer stones out there... hmmmm
Mike

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yes there are but very rare

Nice rocks Mike. They look like pavers on steroids.

That Tsushima looks very tempting. It reminds me of an Escher. Can you say if the consistency of the rock is similar to an Escher? Maybe a similar geology.

The JNAT hole is very deep and dark.

Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in.

Love those rocks Mike. That Amakusa sounds like it performs perfectly too :tu

Quote:

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Love those rocks Mike. That Amakusa sounds like it performs perfectly too :tu

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I have to admit I am skeptical about the Amakusa, I ordered one to try it for myself.
I have tried the white amakusa which is rated as 1k stone and it is way too slow for razors. Anyway I will try the red and hopefully it will work for me too.

I have heard that the Amakusa Red's can have inclusions that can damage the edge, but they tend to be big and thick like the one shown, so if you lap enough you can usually find a clean area. I've heard other guys have had success with them too, but I've never tried one myself. Tempting..... But I'm lucky enough not to have HAD.

+1 on the Tsushima stone. Undersea mine closed in 1982, so these are getting rarer. An under-appreciated stone IMO.

[QUOTE=Evritt;747947]Nice rocks Mike. They look like pavers on steroids.

That Tsushima looks very tempting. It reminds me of an Escher. Can you say if the consistency of the rock is similar to an Escher? Maybe a similar geology.

Hi Evritt;
No the Tsushima is nothing like an Escher. It is a rare natural stone that feels and behaves like a synthetic. I really like this stone, very nice. I have to work with them more.

Dylan;
Regarding inclusions in Amakusa, like any natural stone you can get a bad one. I heard the same thing while investigated different sources. The Amakusa surface is pock marked with craters, some fairly large. By proper lapping and surface prep these should not cause a problem. It's a fun stone but it aint no Shapton 1000 when setting bevels. That's the point.

OZ;
Thanks, your input and guidance helped me to decide on what direction to move in with the naturals.
Have fun
MIke

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wsfarrell

+1 on the Tsushima stone. Undersea mine closed in 1982, so these are getting rarer. An under-appreciated stone IMO.

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Funny, I keep hearing about how rare all these Japanese hones are because the mines closed in the 80s, but they certainly aren't difficult to find...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MODINE

The search continues for an even finer faster stone. And the means to afford them :rofl2:
That's the problem, you don't know unless you test them side by side.

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Grass is always greener etc... Been looking for a slow fine one for the last 2 years. Arriving this weekend... Fingers X'd :D

Mike I'm guessing that Tsushima is a softish stone like Aoto which it resembles. Fast cutter ?

"Rare" is a relative word.

For someone its rare for someone its not.
I do not think that the Tsushima sea stone is rare. It can be found it on web for sale in Japan.
On the other side I think the stone from the mountain is rare because you cannot find it on the web for sale (At least I cannot find it now).

I uploaded picture of my stone from the mountain because I think many did never see it in picture.

The first picture is the stone lapped with diamond #200 and after that lapped with Aizu stone. (I stopped lapping at half on that stone to show that the slurry is milky white. You can see it where it is only lapped with diamond.)

The other shot is the "mirror shot" to Japanese TV. I think you can estimate the grit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Grass is always greener etc... Been looking for a slow fine one for the last 2 years. Arriving this weekend... Fingers X'd :D

Mike I'm guessing that Tsushima is a softish stone like Aoto which it resembles. Fast cutter ?

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Oz;

Yes the Tsushima is a fast cutter and somewhat soft. Without getting into descriptive semantics, very silky feedback. I'll be testing more stones today over at Shams. I am no where near his skill level, or yours, but I'm a good listener and a quick study.
MIke