Hello,
What is the best way to lap a barber hone? I have a hone that has a small scratch across the width of the stone, not deep at all but noticeable. Can you advise please?
Thank you.
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Hello,
What is the best way to lap a barber hone? I have a hone that has a small scratch across the width of the stone, not deep at all but noticeable. Can you advise please?
Thank you.
Can you feel the scratch when you hone? If not I wouldnt bother.
I usually use 220 wet/dry sandpaper when I need to lap barber hones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorro
Thanks for the reply Slarti,
Yes, I can feel the scratch when I hone. Will a DMT 325 work? I might as well give it a try.
The best way to lap a barber hone is to not do it. A scratch is an aesthetic issue. Unless you can FEEL the scratch when honing, it is best to leave the original surface intact.
Yes, I can feel the scratch when honing. It's not much but noticeable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Honing a barber hone is not a good idea unless the scratch effacts the way it hones, the surface of a barber hone is not desgned ot be honed like other hones are.
just follow the wiki, put some wet'n'dry sand paper on a very flat surface spray with some water and do figure 8's with your hone.
you can finish by lapping again on some finer paper but thats just personal preferance.
If it's an older ceramic hone it might take ages......and ages.
Hone Lapping 101 - Straight Razor Place Wiki
In that case, yes, you definitely need to lap it. Use the hone lapping 101 in the Wiki, but only do it minimally. If you can feel the scratch, then it is a high point that will be removed first by any lapping. The entire depth of the scratch does not need to be removed. You just need to remove a little in order to eliminate the high spot and you don't need to worry about the low parts of the scratch. You should stop at this point to preserve the original surface of the hone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorro
I didn't know the surface of those is any special, but I hate lapping them anyways because ceramics is really hard.
Though the instructions on swatys (if i'm not mistaken) say that the hones can be refinished with emery paper. I have very little experience with these hones though, may be had 20 or so, a few in excellent original condition, the rest I had to lap, but I've only used each few times at most, usually just to test they do what they're supposed to.
I am curious what is the difference of the lapped surface.
When you do lap it be sure to use a lot of water on the hone and rinse the swarf off very frequently. You don't want to destroy that DMT 325.
After you have used the 325 then move up the grit ladder to 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper, use it wet. That will give you a nice smooth texture on the hone surface. This will be the one and only time you will ever need to lap that hone.
Hope this helps, :)
Thanks for all the input gents,
I lapped the hone with a 325 DMT and it seemed to smooth it out right away. I tried about 10 circular laps around the scratch under running water. There also seemed to be a lot of dirt/debris or I guess blade material left on the hone.
Then I tried it on an old beat up razor and it put a slight edge back on to it. I did not feel the scratch anymore. The razor even cut some forearm hairs.
I did not take off too much just enough to remove the scratch and debris.
Thanks again all!
How can I destroy a 325 by lapping a barber's hone? What exactly happens? I assume by your post that using plenty of water will prevent destroying the DMT.Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
Thanks for the advice!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorro
Barber hones are usually extremely hard, which means they put a lot of wear and tear on whatever you use to lap them. Even a DMT will wear out eventually, and if you get too much gunk from lapping in there, it can ruin a DMT.
That being said, I always lapped my barber hone on my DMT. I tried wet/dry sandpaper once, and it was just too slow.
You also did right by going JUST far enough to get rid of the scratch. Because barber hones are so hard, they are very slow to dish, and very slow to glaze. They need very little lapping.
hey post us a picture of the finished job
When you lap it develops a slurry composed of the binder & abrasives in the hone. That is called "swarf". If the swarf becomes to thick it starts to abrade the soft Nickel that the diamonds are embedded into. Then the diamonds fall out. Moral of the story is to keep the swarf from building up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorro
As a bunch of us have found out and as DMT states do not use any DMT finer than 325 for lapping for just that reason. Thats why I suggested sandpaper to finish the job. Years ago I destroyed 2 diamond plates, a 400 grit & a 1200 grit, by lapping with them and not flushing out the swarf very frequently. IMHO the process should be done under running water at a minimum.
Hope this helps, :)
Attachment 58076Quote:
Originally Posted by KalgoorlieBoi
The dark line about 1/3 of the way over from the right hand side running from north to south right above the 03 in the March date stamp.
Oh, One last question about barber honing: strop first then barber hone or vice a versa?
Thanks all.
Use the barber hone for 4 to 6 strokes whenever you feel a diminishment in the quality of your shave. You can lubricate the hone with water and a little lather. Always strop after using the hone and strop before every shave.
Beautiful thanks much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
I can't tell if you have done it from the photo, but you also should slightly round over the edges of the long sides of the hone using either a diamond plate or sandpaper. By slightly chamfering the transition from the top to the side of the hone, you reduce the risk of damaging your edge if you slightly tip your blade while honing.
Yes, great point. I tried that a little bit last night but didn't want to overdo it. I didn't want to damage my 325. I'll pick up some wet/dry sandpaper as mentioned before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Actually, the DMT will work just fine for that. You only need to slightly round over the edge. It takes very little to "take the edge off." You don't need to pick up the sandpaper just for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorro
Ok, I'll go for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
+1 on clear water or perhaps a bit of lather.
Since barber hones do not develop a slurry (unless abused) I stumbled
on using a white fluoride toothpaste to "wake up the surface". Toothpaste
abrasives are mostly softer than steel so they mostly clean the surface
of the hone.
Having said this one of the ideal conditions of many barber hones is glazed
and shining. As the barber hone glazes over it hones finer and finer which
is often a good thing (up to the point where it no longer hones).
If you do sand or DMT flatten a barber hone know that the surface will need
some time or work to calm down. The surface will pick up a texture that reflects
the coarse material last used to lap it. It will take finer papers and perhaps time
to calm it down.
Different hones are made in different ways. Since they were made in vast numbers
some but not all have a middle of more common brick mud and have a thin slip surface
of carefully classified fine material. Only the carefully classified fine material is
razor hone quality so caution with an aggressive DMT is in oder.
And yes if the surface has a divot that causes a razor to jump or catch it
needs to be relieved. As for divots some barber hones are made with
dimples to hold water or whatever. So a divot that the blade glides over
is a do not care.
i appreciate niftys comments about surface texture.. my swaty became smoother after lapping on a worn 325.
yep; destroyed a couple of diamond plates also......ignorance is a bad excuse; a 600 and a 1000 <grrrrr>
Lou
Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorro
Can you feel it if you take a bit of 500 to 1000 grit 3M wet dry
and worry the area of the scratch and relieve the edges of
the scratch.
Some but not all barber hones have a very different
center with a fine honing slip on the surface. Lapping
with a coarse DMT might quickly wash the good bits
down the drain. The problem is that you are good to
go up to the point that the good bits are gone -- there
is no warning... you have a good barber hone, lap it and the
inside is exposed and you have a bit of brick full of sand
and generally not razor friendly stuff.
Which side has the scratch, becomes the next question.
You can hone on the opposite side in most cases.
Good idea, that can work.Quote:
Originally Posted by niftyshaving
Ok, I think nobody mentioned it, so I'll put it in here. You can lap a barber hone on another barber hone. Been an approved method since at least 1895, when some guy with thirty years experience put it in a book. Yours is already done now, but just an FYI. I did it myself, and while I can't comment on its efficacy as compared to a DMT, it's much faster and more effective than using sandpaper IMHO.
Glad to see this thread.
I am looking to buy a hone off ebay and am anticipating the need to dress the surface as I see chips and so forth out of nearly all the hone edges. I had assumed it was standard practice to "clean them up" a bit.
Hi all. I picked up a NOS carborundum no152 barber hone on ebay that seemed quite flat and in perfect condition..
I soaked it in RO water and have been using it for a week now, both with lather and without, but it has developed a rough spot in the middle, or the outer edges have glazed, not sure which really. All I know is you can feel it when the razor passes over the area while honing and I'm curious as to why and whether lapping is advised or not. Along the edge of the darker gray side it seems the roughness of the area in the middle of the face, but as the pics show, there is a much smoother areas on ether side that definately look glazed.
So to lap or not to lap? I always assumed the stone was the surface grit all the way through and I did start to work the surface a bit with a DMT 600, but now I'm not sure. Don't want to ruin it and the stone in one action.
Anyway, take a look and give me some ideas.
Attachment 139005
Thanks all
May I suggest you start a new thread and try for some pics without the shadow in the middle of the hone?
IMHO the carborundum hones are of uniform grit all the way thru. There is no danger in lapping them but you will find it a very slow process.
You do need to determine if the center is actually coarser then the center of the hone at the ends. The pics just do not give enough info to help. try to meet up with someone local to help you answer this.
use this search screen to find someone in your area...........
http://straightrazorpalace.com/memberlist.php?do=search
Thanks for the reply Randy. Wasn't sure if this should reside within that barber hone thread or not.
I will start a new thread as suggested as I will surely have lots of thoughts and questions on the razor honing craft as I get further adept at it.
Regarding the shadow across the middle of the hone in the pics, that is actually the area of roughness I am referring too. That shadow is on the hone surface and is a rougher feel than the areas adjacent it on the face ends.
I'm going to purchase a few sheets of 240-320 wet sanding paper to work the surface with on the weekend.
Like I said, there was no mark on it when I received it and I haven't used it more than a few times. The box indicates it is quite an old stone but was new old stock and showed no signs of wear before I received it.
I did leave it and my 12000k stone in a container of reverse osmosis filtered water for the week continuously and I also tried lather on the stone as the original instructions suggested. That's pretty much the history of my trials thus far.
Thanks again.
I just called a friend with a lot of experience with the Carborundum hones, Utopian.
he feels that they are solid all the way through so it would be safe to lap it. He made a distinction between the 101, 101A, 102 & 103 which are marked on the box as a razor hone. Is yours? If not then it is a sharpening stone and not as suitable for razors.
I asked about porousity and he said that the 101-2-3 are not porous but some of the others are. It sounds to me like yours is porous because it has glazed along the edges, probably from the shaving lather. Since the glazing is only along the sides it suggests that the sides are " high" and the center is "dished". This means the hone needs to be lapped flat. I suspect that the roughness and discoloration in the center is from a buildup of swarf coming from the edges when you hone.
So....I don't think you have a razor hone, just a sharpening hone (knives). I think it needs to be lapped flat to be useful.
Just my 2¢ :)
Going out of town for a few days so I will not be able to comment further until I get back.
Good luck
+1....Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
That is not a razor hone in my experience. The commonly accepted carborundum razor hones are the models 101, 101A, 102, 103, 104, 105 and 106. Also the model 118 is a razor hone but in my experience not as 'fine' as the lower numbers. I have all of them, and IMO they are very fine razor hones...vastly under-appreciated by many. My favorite is the #102. It is a very hard and very fine Barber hone and will put a nice 'touch-up' edge on a razor. If you can find any of these model #'s you won't be disappointed.
Here is a pic (courtesy of Utopian from a prior thread) of these hones:
Attachment 139057
Thanks for the replies all.
Would love to pull this string into a new thread but it works in here too I hope.
Mine is a carborundum 152 and from what it says on the box it was designated as a razor hone.
Attachment 139094
Hard to get a pic that does it justice and if the glazing is from the lather than maybe it just didn't stick it the middle area due to contamination on the stone from the years in storage.
I will try to lap it on some 320 grit wet paper and see if that areas grows or shrinks with the efforts. Will lay out a pencil line grid and define the area with pencil as well.
At the end of the day if I need to buy new honing stones and this antique 152 just becomes a collectible, not to bad based on some of the collections I've seen on here..
You mentors, veterans, and regulars really got stones, lol..
I just snagged a nice bundle on eBay with seven vintage assorted blades from three continents so I have lots of practice coming my way..
Thanks again all.
Note well modern hones are head and shoulders better than almost all old school barber hones. Carborundum brand hones can be equal to the near 7k grit hones when lapped and clean. Old school tricks with lather, Vaseline can get results approaching a modern 11k hone.
If you lap it expect the barber hone to act a lot like the last thing you lapped it on for a while. Worry it smooth on flat scrap steel perhaps with the help of common white tooth paste.
An X pattern on a short hone tolerates a lot of dishing.
5 laps, strop shave test, See Lynn's video on honing with a barber hone.
Morning. So I have lapped my old carbo 152 initially on 220 grit wet paper, then onto my dmt 600 in a pan of water that just covered the top surface.
Took 2 hours of circles and x's to remove the surface glazing and roughness detected.
The 220 went right dull in about 25 minutes, and I moved to the dmt with trepidation after reading on here all the folks that said they ruined their dmt's lapping their stones dry, hence why I tried the pan of water for constant flushing.
Well the results are in and it does feel much flatter for certain.
Attachment 139429
I used my learner asian blade on it and as cautioned, it did feel rougher grit initially, but rougher uniformly across the hone face.
The finer side of the hone seems to just slide across the dmt when I tried an initial lapping, even though there is evidence of it working. It just feels more slidy to the touch while lapping, not sure if that's cause I am dulling my dmt600 or cause of the grit on the stone.
Attachment 139430
Tried another honing on my vintage Boker Adonis after worrying the hone faces with my cheap asian blade and it shaves very smoothly now to my novice touch.
Attachment 139431
Cuts arm hairs at the surface easily and pops hairs mid height as well.
So I am pretty happy with the hones surface now.
Thanks for the help all. You were right that it takes a while and patience to wear these old barber hones smooth.
And while I'm happy with this stone as a starting point, and a great eBay buy at $30. I foresee some higher quality new stones in my future... As I acquire the touch and the assortment of razors that require different techniques, I see a collection abrewing,,hehehe.
Just came back last nite.
Glad to see that you have followed thru with the tedious lapping and that your edges have improved. :)
You have been given correct advice by Wolfpack34. Utopian called me back and said the same thing as Wolfpack34. The Carborundum 101-3 series hones are a finer grade than the 152.
Good luck :)
