Since Schtoo declared in his first post that he does not shave with a straight, yes I think the assumption is correct that his experience is related to tool sharpening. We're going have to convince him to try a razor!
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Since Schtoo declared in his first post that he does not shave with a straight, yes I think the assumption is correct that his experience is related to tool sharpening. We're going have to convince him to try a razor!
The suspense is killing me!
I have tried the Bester 2k on razors. Likes ,very hard,large & fast stone ~~ Dislikes , very thirsty & the one I tried felt like it had an odd sized particle in the surface that always felt like a bump even after lapping. Possibly not a fault of the stone as it was used. Overall I was considering a full set but they only went to 2k at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harvitz81
I agree with Ron tho Schtoo must convert to straights... or even bent blades :)
I will sift through it tonight, but I will warn you that a link to a vending site is not allowed unless you are an approved vendor. For that reason you probably will have to do a "workaround."
Regarding your statement razor honing will be easy because of your tool honing experience, that may or may not work out for you right away. The forum has encountered many (seriously, many) people who have made the same "a blade is a blade" comment and then they struggled making their razor comfortable. Hopefully you will be an exception.
A very good comparison at first sight, I will read it fully when I have the time to. But looking at the diagrams and testing, I don't think it will be good for judging them for straights.
Yeah, I suspected as much.
The blog is stand alone, but it's linked into the store as well. Perhaps it's ok, perhaps not. I'm sure I'll find out soon enough.
I very much dislike doing a hard sell at any time for any reason. Even when questions come in through my little store, I can't do a hard sell. I just let folks know what's what, and let them make their own decision. When the posted rules of a forum state that one must not link to their own selling site, I've never gotten a warning for it before and really hoping to not attract my first here.
A work around would be a nightmare, and if it was needed, the wait might be a very, very long one.
I must say it is interesting how different forums react to those who sell things. I suppoe it boils down to what past experiences have been on that forum.
A blade is a blade? Nope, not really. Learned that from working over knives after woodworking tools. What works well for a knife may be terrible for a tool, and vise versa but that's more feeling and preference.
There just isn't enough metal in a razor to start running into the problems that putting 4-6 square inches of hard steel on a stone does. But at the same time, what that much hard steel does to a stone is vastly different to what a very small surface area will enact. Some stones don't care one way or another, others get all uppity at either end of the scale, be it lots of metal or a little. Obvious example of this is how well liked Naniwa Superstones are here with razors, but how largely inadequate they are with anything other than microbevels with tools. I like Superstones, but there's no way in the world they're "fast".
We shall see what happens when I stick a razor on stone.
(I got no surprises when I put knives to stone, all warnings to the contrary, which is why I'm not expecting anything unusual with razors. Different, yes? Completely off the wall different? Not really.)
Wish me luck!
Stu.
I dont have any of the bevel setting stones you guys mentioned above, but when i had my first straight razor i did the newbie thing and hit it off the faucet.
I only had a lansky knife sharpening stone set so i took the 1000 to work out the chip, after that i sent it out to get fixed since i knew i couldnt do much with it .
Your post linking to the blog has been pulled for review by the mod team. Whether it will be restored remains to be seen. For those of us who are obsessed enough with this sport to have multiple bevel setters it seems the 1k Chosera is the most popular for those who have tried it. I have used the Shapton Pro 1 & 2k, Norton 1k, Naniwa 1k and finally the Chosera 1k. The Chosera is now my go to bevel setter. I don't even think twice. Only for razors though. I have no experience in sharpening tools. As with all aspects of wet shaving honing is a YMMV pursuit. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Schtoo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schtoo
Surely the differences are not off the wall but their consequences to the edge, spine wear & the final shave can be.
Best of luck & I bet you get as addicted as the rest of us :)
Glen,Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
So your saying that setting the bevel is really important? (lol)
Well that is the end of that! I am going to pull the trigger on a Chosera 1k. I have a Shapton 1K it does the job but has a very sloppy feel to it, if that makes sense.
Thanks for the post Glen it really just hit me that my bevels, while adequate, just do not meet the high standards that I have come to expect from the rest of my progression.
Take Care,
Richard
I guess it doesn't make sense to me. Which Shapton 1k do you have?
I don't have the Chosera 1k, but I've got the 600 and 800 and really like the way they are more aggressive but do not leave deep scratches, making it easy to move up to, and quickly past, a 1k hone.
I have the standard Shapton 1K glass not the pro. I am not getting much cutting action for what I would think a 1K should be. I have watched the progress with a 30X loupe and it is very slow.
R
I'm surprised to hear that. I have the same hone and I find it's a very fast cutter, certainly on a par with the Chosera 1k.
The only thing I've noticed is it tends to glaze slightly faster than the Chosera but other than that it's a great stone I've found.
If I had to give away all my stones I'd keep the 1/4/8/16k Shaptons and my J-Nat. With that set up I can get a great edge on pretty much anything! :)
How recently did you lap your Shapton?
A Shapton Glass Stone and a Shapton Professional are two completely different animals...Quote:
Originally Posted by riooso
The Chosera will work better than the Glass Stone, but at the same time, the Professional will take the Glass Stone outside and teach it a lesson or three.
Here's a suggestion you might try. I've not ever done it with a Glass Stone since I reckon they're a lost cause, but it's a trick that can usually coax increased performance out of any stone. When I bother to give the Glass Stones another going over, I'll give this a try to see what happens myself, I don't expect anything different to what is described below.
Take a diamond plate of any size, a scotchbrite pad, a piece of wet and dry sandpaper, anything that you can scrub the Glass Stone with without leaving anything behind. Not another stone like a nagura please unless you know it's of the same or finer grit than the stone it's being used on.
Scrub the surface of the stone, focusing most of those areas that you don't use when sharpening. Make sure there's at least a film of water on the stone, not standing water. Create a thin slurry on the stone and use that to do the work.
Keep the slurry on the stone, work it around as much as you can and try to maintain consistency by adding only a little water at a time. Water on the blade from a rinse is usually enough to maintain the slurry. If the slurry goes black, good. If the slurry starts to create sticky areas, then work the liquid slurry into those areas to break them up and back off the pressure a little.
You're not aiming for mud like what comes out of a King stone or similar, just an artificially created slurry like watered down milk. It should speed things up without any detrimental side effects and allow you to at least get some use from the Glass Stone, and buying yourself some time to at least try something else (if possible) before you need to replace it.
The abrasive in the Glass Stones is good stuff, the problem is the binder which (I think) holds onto the abrasive for a little longer than what is good for it. Get some of that good abrasive out of the binder and make it do some useful work, and you might be pleasantly surprised.
If no good comes of it, hey, it didn't cost you anything but a little time.
Good luck, and do please let us know how it works out if you try it.
Stu.
It's funny how personal preference plays such a big part in our sport. I have used the Shapton on glass 1K to set bevels on around 500 razors and it works well. On the other hand, I am not a fan of the pro series at all. I have used them and they are OK, but I would prefer the glass stones over them. At the end of the day, I continue to use my Chosera 1K because it gives me the results I prefer with less abrasion than some of the more aggressive stones.
I will be trying a couple of new 1K's soon so who knows.........:angel:
Have fun,
Lynn
Yeah we have been using that trick on the Nortons, Naniwas, Shapton, Kings even the Chosera but we don't concentrate on the parts we don't use, we pretty much try and keep the hones as flat as possible. Slurry has been used quite a few different ways some to increase cutting power some to impart smoothness... In fact just about every Stone / Hone has been worked using various slurries.... Heck we even had some guys using a Spyderco UF with Diamond and CrOx...Quote:
Originally Posted by Schtoo
One thing you are going to have to learn with razors is Sharpness is only half the battle, with Razors you are going to drag that sharp blade across your face so Smoothness becomes quite important... Now with a ton of practice the two will come together for you...
There have been many Knife and Tool guys with the same attitude that you have right now, many become quite good at straight razor honing,,, many don't get it...
Thanks for the tricks. I will try all the above.
Can you please elaborate? If you are alluding to the idea that the GS 1k does not set bevels fast, I disagree, and if you are alluding to the idea that the GS 1k should be used only within the so-called "Shapton" system, I also disagree. So could you please clarify...Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Gark -- all this talk about bevel setting... Now I have to
buy another hone. I saw this 2K hone and HAD to have
it:
Naniwa Aotoshi 2k Green Brick
Months ago I posted a note on my Green Monster (CrOx on Balsa)
and when I saw this green brick I had to go for it. Other Razor forums
mention it with mixed reviews. But I want something to that does
not have the gritty gravel feeling of my Norton 1K yet has enough
tooth to refresh a bevel that does not need to be reset (;)).
Since I also have a block full of kitchen knives that will be happy
to visit this brick I pulled the trigger. I will get back with an opinion
in a couple months after I have used it a bit.
Green Brick, Green Brick Of Joy, Aotoshi 2k Green Brick
EDIT:
Sorry for being slightly off subject. I guess I will
have to dedicate my new green brick to bevel setting
or at least the process of setting a bevel and report
back on topic.
I would comment that at or about 1K sharpening and
edge shaping makes a big change and becomes honing
and polishing. A lot depends on the steel and the hones.
So one might consider three processes:
- Sharpening/ Bevel setting
- Honing
- Stropping.
I am alluding to neither, I am saying exactly that, don't mis-understand the purpose of the thread though, like many already have... We are talking about a dedicated bevel setting stone... Not the many "can do" stones that are out there, every stone mentioned is a good solid bevel setter for most every person out there...in fact most people don't actually even need a dedicated bevel stone...Quote:
Originally Posted by Stromeng
Also please re-read what I said about the Shapton, Fast and Smooth as compared to the Norton 1k that makes it a pretty darn good stone :)
Umm, a question.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
What happens if I already happen to know what 'sharp and smooth' actually is?
Just curious.
(I don't know where you got the idea that I don't know what sharp actually is, but I'm always willing to learn, if there is indeed something to learn. At the moment, I'm confident that getting the razor sharp enough is not going to be a problem at all. It's all the other details that worry me...)
Stu.
Proceed directly to shave test to see if "knowing" matches "doing" :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Schtoo
http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpr...940-Medium.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
Ok, now what? :hmmm:
(Yeah, I got bored last night. Chisels are too narrow and tend to dig in.)
Stu.
Oh yeah , Forgot to say it's best to use a razor :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Schtoo
Only had a plane blade available. Gotta make do with what I got for the time being...
Was pleasantly surprised actually. Very smooth, no nicks. Looking forward to an proper instrument. :)
Stu.
I know this is off topic but I really have to comment on the "knife" guy sharpening a razor. I have been sharpening knives for about 40 years, by hand, no jigs what so ever. I can feel the bevel as it is being made and as it is being polished. I have met some very talented knife guys and these top tier gents also relate to me that they use no jigs or crutches. Actually a razor has a built in "crutch" called the spine.:) I have a journeyman's card as finish carpenter, welder, and elevator mechanic. I had no trouble with the actual honing of a razor once I found out what rocks to use. I may be off base here but one very important attribute for being a master at honing, as a lot of the guys that have posted here are, is to have hands that have very good touch, feel and muscle control. Any individual that can take two pieces of wood or metal and mate them end to end with no light showing between the crack can, I assure you, sharpen a razor within a very short time.
Just an observation,
Richard
Good start :) Now, the next challenge is do the same with some Sheffield wedges & some extra Hollow Solingens. Get the 2 extremes wired & you'll have most bases covered :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Schtoo
Great thread! I only own a vintage coticule and have been having trouble setting a bevel on a coupple sheffield wedges. I have been thinking about getting a "dedicated bevel setter", and this thread has helped me narrow down the field to two candidates. Thanks fellas for letting us know what your personal choices are and why, it is a big help for someone like me.
Regards
Louis.
Schtoo, don't misunderstand us. We don't say that you can't sharpen things, nor you don't know about sharp and smooth, we are saying that razors are a very different animal. I am pretty sure that you will get the hang of it much faster than the majority of new guys. We are saying that a lot of knife nuts and others came here, who already shaved with their pocket knives a lot of times, just for kicks, or to prove how good they can sharpen. And there were a lot of them who had a hard time learning to hone a razor, so if you can sharpen anything doesn't mean you can hone a razor too. That said, it can happen that you will sharpen an old sheffield warped smiling wedge the first time with HHT5 and perfect no irritation BBS shave, but it is very unlikely :) You will see what we were talking about if you get a less than perfectly straight razor, with more than minor rework needs.
Well, I tried the Bester 1K on about 50 razors and this stone will be going to the closet. It is a harder feeling stone, but not as hard as the Shapton on Glass. It eats water even after a good soaking. This stone really loaded up quickly too. I won't necessarily say clogged, but definitely a ton of swarf on it and I had to clean/lap it every couple of razors. It is a slow cutter and I ended up finishing the bevel on every razor with a Chosera 1K. I was doing 3-5 sets of circles followed by 10 X strokes and not getting what I usually get on one set with the Chosera, Super Stone, Norton or Shapton Glass. I may play with this one some more, but doubtful. I have several others I want to test next.
If someone wants to play with this stone, I'll be happy to loan it to you. I'm betting it will get a little workout at the MO Gathering in a few weeks.
Have fun,
Lynn
Lynn, I'm not surprised.
But it does give me some insight as to what's 'desirable' in a bevel setting stone for a razor. Not completely of course, but some more ideas.
You'll probably find that cleaning more than lapping was required, the Bester stays pretty flat no matter what you do to it. Blessing for some, curse for others. It has a good reputation for knife sharpeners and Japanese tool users, but I found it to be a little gutless in the end but capable with most any steel presented to it, the tougher the better. Compared to the Chosera, slower to a degree but has a much wider operating envelope, so for tough stainless it might be a better choice and really makes it's mark with very tough steels like HSS.
All that tells me is the abrasive is good and hard, porosity is a little too great, binder is hard and durable. In some cases, the binder/abrasive match reasonably well, other times, not quite so much.
If you've got some tough battleaxe of a blade kicking around, give it a shot. On less tough steels, meh. I don't think you're playing with anything that a Chosera or Shapton struggles with, so the Bester's not going to be of much benefit. Maybe someone will like the feeling though, since there's no accounting for taste. :hmmm:
Just a passing observation... ;)
And looking forward to more information as it arrives.
Stu.
OK, two more tested. Around 50 razors on each. Maybe a few more.
Arashiyama-Had a little grainy feeling to start, but it went away with a simple lapping. It required a light soaking, but is not a thirsty stone. It has a medium hard feeling that is similar to the Chosera. Pretty decent feedback. It is a nice cutter and shows swarf collection, but no clogging. Not quite as fast a cutter as the Chosera, but very close. Results were good with this stone. Although, I still prefer the Chosera, this is not a bad stone at all.
Sigma Hard-This stone was a bitch to lap for starters. Even with soaking for 15 minutes, this stone stayed pretty thirsty though out the honing regiment. It has a hard feel to it with decent feedback. The swarf definitely loads up and it clogged at around 3 razors. It is a decent cutter, but again, not as quick as the Chosera. Results were decent.
With both these stones, I was able to set usable bevels. I liked the Arashiyama so far, the best of the 3 new ones I've been playing with. I'll continue to play with these stones and have a Sigma Soft to test next. I have been sticking with sets of 40 circles with pressure in each direction followed by 10 X strokes. The Sigma Hard and Bester needed additional sets on virtually every razor. Not so with the Arashiyama. All razors tested were in decent condition although there were a couple of ebay dogs in there so I got to compare multiple sets on the Chosera to these stones. I'm going to try to put a couple hundred razors through each of these stones going forward to see if my opinion's on them changes.
So far, I won't be giving up the Chosera as my main bevel setter, but I would have no problem using the Arashiyama as an alternative.
Have fun,
Lynn
This is an awesome post!!! Answered like 10 questions that i had
Great post, thanks for the info Lynn, just to check is the Arashiyama you mention:
Arashiyama 1000 Grit
After typing moments ago that in 5 years I never really felt the urge to upgrade my King 1k I'm feeling a touch of 1K HAD.
That is the Arashiyama that I have. I really like this hone. It feels rather gritty compared to most 1k's, but I like its feedback, and gritty is not so bad for a bevel setter. The scratch pattern observed under magnification is deeper than that of a Naniwa Chosera 1k, but it is easily removed with a Naniwa SuperStone 3k.
I love this thread. I thought I'd give it a "BTTT" bump (Back To The Top)
Seems to me this thread is timeless and could be fitted in as very useful.
Sticky material?
Anyway, enjoy again.
I'll chip in a vote for the Shapton Pro 1.5K, I don't think it has been mentioned yet. I got rid of my King and picked the Shapton up a few weeks back. Grit wise it's rougher than the King 1K but it's hardwearing, fast, splash & go and makes short work of bevels.
Awesome thread for bevel setting stones for people just starting or looking to get started honing.
Have not been honing long myself but found out quickly from numerous Gssixgun posts that 90% of honing and/or restoration is an excellent bevel set.
Been using a King cuzz it was cheap and works OK for hollow grinds but just got my first really heavy wedge and man is it slow!! So now in the market for a good bevel setter with a little faster cut and this thread was invaluable in helping narrow my decisions!
Thanks to all who contributed info here, it helps a noob a lot!!
This is really a great thread!!
My King "Ice Bear" 1200 with slurry is super fast and without slurry is medium fast and starts the polishing/refining phase