Belgium Blue : Amazing Stones !

ok so im by no means experienced at this yet so i can only speak from current experiences ive had.

Basically i have a Straight that is shave ready and i use it / strop it and i also realize that at some-point i am going to have to stop getting others to sharpen my razor and do it myself.ive

so i decided that what i needed to help me practice and get ready for that day when i had to sharpen my razor i would buy a cheap razor from ebay (sub £10 ) i also bought a Belgium Blue Stone from Invisible Edge. After a lot of practicing and reading up on here about honing ive surprised myself and managed to get a decent edge on this cheap razor these Belgium stones really are fantastic value for money and seem to work miracles.

Hmm...the Belgian blue is a very slow stone and not generally thought to be a finishing stone. it's probably closer to a 6K.

Tell us about your technique. Maybe you made a discovery.

I tried the method described below and it gave a nice edge. I do not like to hone with electrical tape, nor do I like to deliberately dull an edge. There is also a Uniblue method that is likely somewhat faster. This is a direct quote from Dr. Ralfson's post on coticule.be:

"Here is how I perform the Dilublue, start as always with a razor dulled on glass, then I set the bevel using a thicker slurry than I would use on a Coticule, and I perform sets of 50 instead of 30 half strokes, expect this to take a little longer than when using a Coticule, then I thin the slurry to a milky like thickness, and perform 100 regular X strokes, after that I thin the slurry down again to a misty water like one, and perform a further 100 regular X strokes, that's it done, the HHT is usually a nice 3-4 and I find it typically improves less than a Coticule edge does after the 60/60 stripping on cloth/leather

Sounds very simple, only 2 dilutions and 200 X strokes once the bevel is set, and it is simple, however like I said it does take skill and practice to perfect, I would recommend doing it a good few times before you expect a wow moment during the shave, however once you have got it down, you should be rewarded with shaves as close and forgiving as you could wish for, and no resulting I'll effects to your skin.

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)"

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Hmm...the Belgian blue is a very slow stone and not generally thought to be a finishing stone. it's probably closer to a 6K.

Tell us about your technique. Maybe you made a discovery.

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Not at all a discovery. BBWs have been miss-labeled as "4-6k" for a while now, the truth is that they can be used in a similar fashion as a coticule at a fraction of the cost. i rather like mine and have gotten pretty good edges off it. there is some technique to it, i think. perhaps more than a coticule, because it takes some coaxing, but you can definitely get a shave ready edge with the signature Belgian characteristics - "cuts hair not skin".
It is probably true that there are stones with finer finishing characteristics that yield keener edges, but i get a good shave currently with this.

The method the dr. stated above, in my experience, is probably the most direct method to a good edge off these beautiful and underrated stones.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Hmm...the Belgian blue is a very slow stone and not generally thought to be a finishing stone. it's probably closer to a 6K.

Tell us about your technique. Maybe you made a discovery.

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I wish i had planned or thought out a technique but it was basically starting off using the slurry stone on the BB to develop what you may call a medium thickness slurry. then i just practiced my motions back and forth on the hone very light pressure, some x patterns, figures of 8 and then some simple back and forths (all this was to just get used to running a razor along a hone and keeping it flat).


the razor itself was bought from ebay (heres the link)
Imperial UK - SHAVING STRAIGHT CUT THROAT RAZOR on eBay (end time 26-Mar-11 21:44:18 GMT)

as you can see theres nothing special about it, i was warned by the seller when buying that it needs to be sharpened as its not shave ready, after about 20 minutes on the BB with a random mix of motions i re-tested it and it cut really well, not sure how long it will hold this edge but i was just surprised by how well the BB did its work.

hope this gives a bit of insight into how i managed to put an edge on this razor.

Have you shave tested this razor, as I have not had this exact model but similar ones of uk ebay and I could not get a good edge on them all, metal was just rubbish

Well done for getting a servicable edge from a BBW! I must admit they're not my favourite hone to use, they're very slow and I dont really like the edge they give. In the 18 months I've had my combo stone I think I've used it probably twice..?

But the most important thing is that you like the edge and are happy with the shaves!

BBW are used a lot, especially in Germany, for final polishing. Followed by CrOx you should be able to create a good edge for shaving.

I've always used my Belgian blue while honing and I agree it leaves a great edge.

Of course I always finish off on the coti whose edge I prefer more.

Maybe I will try just the bbw edge next time and see how that works out.

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Originally Posted by basil

I've always used my Belgian blue while honing and I agree it leaves a great edge.

Of course I always finish off on the coti whose edge I prefer more.

Maybe I will try just the bbw edge next time and see how that works out.

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There was a thread suggesting exactly that not long ago. I have a number of combo coticules and used to use the bbw with slurry before going to the yellow but pretty much leave it alone now. If you have a lot of patience and/or that is all you have it will get you there eventually. I prefer a stone that leaves a finer edge and gets you there faster. :beer2:Coffee is good this morning.

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Originally Posted by pedro083

Have you shave tested this razor, as I have not had this exact model but similar ones of uk ebay and I could not get a good edge on them all, metal was just rubbish

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Hi Pedro, yes whilst it wasnt a full shave and there is room for improvement it does shave both stubble and arm hair quite happily.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

There was a thread suggesting exactly that not long ago. I have a number of combo coticules and used to use the bbw with slurry before going to the yellow but pretty much leave it alone now. If you have a lot of patience and/or that is all you have it will get you there eventually. I prefer a stone that leaves a finer edge and gets you there faster. :beer2:Coffee is good this morning.

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I only have a coti combo so it's all I'm able to use.

Usually I set the bevel on the yellow side with a thick slurry and the slurry is black in 10 half strokes.

Then it's off to the blue with a slurry and I thin out until nearly water. I flip over and use the slurry that was already there with whatever blue slurry is still left on the blade and then I just go until I dilute down to plain water 10 laps at a time.

In the end I feel that this gives me a much smoother shave than anything else I have tried.

While I'm no expert honer I feel like I'm doing an ok job on my razors. Now would I be able to home other peoples? Probably not, it's just that I'm used to my Grelots and know what I have to do with my particular stone to get where I need too.

I've been thinking about maybe trying out other stones or methods but why change what worka for you!

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Originally Posted by basil

I've been thinking about maybe trying out other stones or methods but why change what worka for you!

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I used to use the same procedure you gave in your post. Later I found that after setting the bevel on a synthetic I could skip the blue altogether and start with a thin slurry on the yellow and dilute as I progressed. This worked as well as the blue/yellow progression. I can't say I won't go back to the blue/yellow again. Just depends on the mood. That is exactly why other stones and methods are fun. Depends on the mood and to some extent on the razor.

I think if honing is approached as a hobby, rather than just a way to maintain the razors, variety keeps it interesting. Nothing wrong with honing for maintenance either though. I suspect that the majority of our membership does exactly that.

Since the BBW compared to other hones has come up again here, I would recommend taking a look at this thread - http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-bbw-coti.html

I don't think the BBW is mislabled or misunderstood. I belive it is in the 6k-8k range with a very smooth edge feel. Much like the Coti is in the 8k-10k range with a very smooth edge feel.

I think it is people's understanding of what you need for a close and comfortable shave that is incorrect. You only need an 8k edge - Norton, Naniwa, Shapton, natural, whatever - to get a close and comfortable shave. You can even push down to about 5k (I did it off my Naniwas and really enjoyed it).

I think people get naturals, get a close, comfortable shave, and assume that means the hone is 10k at least. But that's just not true. If you want to get a more accurate estimate of a hone, try shaving with a razor off the natural hone in question AND a razor off a (5k, or 8k, or 12k) synthetic in the same shave. You'll be surprised, I think.


My only disclaimer is that naturals vary, and maybe you have one that is finer than most, but if you don't do an honest shave test against a known hone, you're not really being honest with yourself.

I 100% agree here with Dylan...

You have to compare the edges to get a any idea..

IMHO the 4-6k is accurate for the BBW and the 8k is accurate for most Coticules.. I think recently with so many people using things as a "Polishing" stone they forget that "Shave Ready" is at 8k and anything higher is not really needed.. I also think some is marketing and just plain hype...

I also believe that the "Estimates" that are given on all the forums are quite high in general..

I doubt any Barber hone is over 8k and think most are 6-8
I doubt any Coticule is anywhere near a 10k
or that a BBW is higher then 6
I believe that Eschers are in the 9-12k levels and most all Japanese naturals with plain water are no higher the maybe 12k (the slurry accounts for higher levels)
Thuringens I would bet run from 6-10k the finer ones being the more vintage ones...

I believe this upward trend in guessing grit levels can all be blamed on the Shapton GS stones :D
Ever since those stones started being used by us razor nuts the guessing game has reached higher and higher..
Many of us have tested and shaved the known grits down to even the 1k level, and a few of us have seen the you start getting pretty nice comfortable shaves at about 4k, by 8k life is really good, and higher then that is just gravy...

Well written Dylan :tu


Oh yeah BTW this is just my humble opinion JMHO and just a wee bit of actual experimentation and experience to back it up :D

I agree with Dylan and Glen.
I test all my naturals against 12k Super Stone and label them finer, same or coarser. No grits attached, because IMHO how the edge feels off a natural stone does not indicate necessarily the grit of the stone.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I agree with Dylan and Glen.
I test all my naturals against 12k Super Stone and label them finer, same or coarser. No grits attached, because IMHO how the edge feels off a natural stone does not indicate necessarily the grit of the stone.

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LOL I basically do the same with my 1k bevel setters and the Norton 1k

They are either Faster or Slower then the Norton 1k
Then I rank them as Smoother or Deeper cutting :D
Amazingly these are all rated as 1k synthetic hones and there are huge differences... Imagine the differences with Naturals :D

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I agree with Dylan and Glen.
I test all my naturals against 12k Super Stone and label them finer, same or coarser. No grits attached, because IMHO how the edge feels off a natural stone does not indicate necessarily the grit of the stone.

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me too, me too. with respect to being in agreement.

I too agree with Dylan. OTOH, I no longer even try to apply a grit # to natural stones. I have in past posts repeated what I've read but basically the individual stone either works well for me or it doesn't. Some give me a finer shaving edge than others. :shrug:

I just received a new BBW with the intent of using as a progressive step before using my coti. The idea of using two identical razors to test / compare the BBW to the coti sounds like a great way for me to use the new BBW.

I have two TI Super Gnomes that I can start to test this weekend.

The BBW does a fine edge, as the recent study showed. I've done the uniblue (tape) but tat2ralphy gave a good method for no tape, using normal x-strokes, rather than the uniblue backstroke. I've only done one each with the method, but the uniblue was a bit crispy for me - 'toned it back down w/ the coti on water. The Dilublue from Ralphy was coti smooth - very satisfying.

I've resorted to backstrokes on the BBW if I have any trouble bringing the keenness up on a blade.

I used to think BBWs left a great edge after shaving with cartridge razors then only experiencing the edges of BBWs and cotis. Im sure they'd still leave what I'd consider a respectable edge, but I prefer an Escher's edge.

Im not surprised many people believe a BBWs edge to be satisfactory, considering 90% of sharpness comes off a 1K, and 95% of 4k, 99.5% of 8K etc...4-6K is fine....especially when many of the secrets of honing are in the hand. Neither would I be surprised if some honers amongst us can achieve a superior edge of a BBW than others can of 8Ks and above.

Bottom line: My edges are far more comfortable off Thuringians.

I posted a while ago about this BBW that I have that leaves godly edges. Finer than the coticule side... IDK... The thing is, I did this little experiment where I polished a piece of metal with the slurry and the scratches from the BBW are definitely bigger. The coticule side though seems to work faster??????? I decided to drop that before I went crazy and just decided that the BBW leaves a hell of a good edge. The feel of the blade on the face though is different, the coticule seems to be smoother but doesn't cut as comfortable as the BBW side, but! the BBW leaves the skin a bit red and is harsher.
Anyway I decided to drop that experiment, the edge of a Jnat is best to my liking. Puma plus Jnat= hair squeegee and I just don't mess around with all that anymore. My sanity has no price.:D

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Originally Posted by pinklather

The BBW does a fine edge, as the recent study showed. I've done the uniblue (tape) but tat2ralphy gave a good method for no tape, using normal x-strokes, rather than the uniblue backstroke. I've only done one each with the method, but the uniblue was a bit crispy for me - 'toned it back down w/ the coti on water. The Dilublue from Ralphy was coti smooth - very satisfying.

I've resorted to backstrokes on the BBW if I have any trouble bringing the keenness up on a blade.

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I have been using the Dilucot method, which I like the results very much, so I will use the same method with the BBW... Dilublue. I'll use my white scaled gnome on the coti, and the black scaled gnome on the BBW. I bought them both at the same time, so I'll look for serried differences, wear differences, etc.

I'm going to try a couple test razors on the BBW to get a feel of the stone before comparing the BBW to the Coti this weekend.

I am afraid we are once again focussing too much on grit size here. It is the shave test that counts at the end of the day.

We all know that edges of say 10K diamond hone behave totally different from edges off 10K aluminium oxide. Grit size is particle size. Diamond particles are spikey, coticule and BBW particles are almost spherical.

I honed my TI Super Gnomes this past weekend, using my white one on my coti and my black one on my BBW. I followed the Dilucot and 'Dilublue' method.

I went right to the shave without stropping. They both shaved okay, with the coti the more comfortable of the two. Using a magnifying lens it does seem the markings on the blade are more visible on the black than the white, so it seems the BBW is a bit more coarse than the coti.

After the initial shaves, I used my felt strop with 0.5 diamond spray to clean up the job a little. 20 laps on the BBW black, 10 laps on the Coti white. I tried the black this morning and the 20 laps on felt made it better, but still needed a little more, I did 10 more laps on felt. I'll test the white with only 10 laps on treated felt tomorrow.

Basically, I feel I could 'get by' with just a BBW and a pasted strop, if I had to. But Why??? There is always a 'better' way :)

quick question: does it matter if i make my slurry on my belgian blue with a nagura stone, or should i use a bbw/coti slurry stone?

I would think you are honing with the nagura slurry instead of bbw slurry.

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Originally Posted by Kees

I am afraid we are once again focussing too much on grit size here. It is the shave test that counts at the end of the day.

We all know that edges of say 10K diamond hone behave totally different from edges off 10K aluminium oxide. Grit size is particle size. Diamond particles are spikey, coticule and BBW particles are almost spherical.

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I totally agree. There are a lot of examples showing that you can get a good shaving edge off of many hones, you just need to know how. Some are easier, some are faster, but in the end, the skill does only matter. (almost)