Flattening stone:3 1000 stones vs diamond plate

With three stones one can make three(actually 6) really
flat surfaces. So you could use three 1000 grit stones
to flatten each other. Then one of these three stones
can be used to sharpen and the other 2 to flatten
the intermediate and the final polishing stone.

When the three stones are not flat anymore, you just
repeat rubbing them together to get them flat again.
Should not take long.

Why bother if one can just buy a diamond plate?

-Diamond plates are not superflat as far as I know.

-The diamond particles do shed and break and are
so hard they are likely to embed in the waterstones

So if you got a 8000 or even finer stone and you use
a diamond plate to flatten it, there is a (big?)chance
some particles of the plate will contaminate it and this
will effect the result.

-Diamonds are not forever. The plate can/will lose its
flattnes after some time.

###

Diamond pros:

-fast
-easy
-les messy

###

I am considering buying a diamond flattening plate. The atoma 400
seems a good choice. I also need a 1000 stone. I could just buy
3 1000 grit stones and(see above) not need the diamond flattening
plate.

I know, some are thinking ''interesting, why don't you try it''. I aint
rich man:) Maybe some here have experience with the three stone
technique. Also since there are many sharpening/hone addicts,
perfectionists I thought it would be a good idea to ask.

Thanks.

Sharpman

I use sandpaper and a polished granite plate, followed by polishing powders on said plate.

Seems like the 1000 grit stones would wear out fairly quickly--I've heard most of them are pretty soft, except for the pricier Chosera ones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimR

I use sandpaper and a polished granite plate, followed by polishing powders on said plate.

Seems like the 1000 grit stones would wear out fairly quickly--I've heard most of them are pretty soft, except for the pricier Chosera ones.

---

Hi Jim,

I use sandpaper too, but I could see the grit particles embed in my
waterstones. Also I don't like using sandpaper. Too much of a mess
/hassle.

The shapton pros are the hardest waterstones as far as I know. I
don't think they would wear out fairly quickly. Actuall they would
(I am guessing) take a very long time to wear out.

Sharpman

Sharpman, First you need to clarify on what you are sharpening as in every other thread you have posted you have talked about sharpening Plane Blades and this is very very different then what we are talking about...

To answer from sharpening Straight Razors..... I use a DMT 325 and have lapped Hundreds of Barber's hones, and have lapped my water stones Thousands of times, that includes Nortons, Naniwas, Shaptons, Coticules, Eschers, Chinese, Japanese, etc: etc: etc: and have never had a problem with wearing it out, or embedding grit...

I wore out one 1k stone so far it was a Norton 220/1k and I finally wore out the 1k side at about 3500-4000 razors...

This of course would have no correlation to honing Plane Blades as the steel , angle, and pressure is way different...

Edit.. I also used the "rubbing the stones together" routine way in the past, that is probably the best way to embed grit from one stone to another, at least in my limited experience with using it..

Sorry, do I understand it right? Do you suggest that you need three same stones of the same type and grit to flatten them on each other? Interesting. The only stones I have three times in my collection are some naturals CFs, Cotis, DTs ...).
Could be interesting to see how you don't embed the particles from Chocera in SS or Shapton.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by adrspach

Sorry, do I understand it right? Do you suggest that you need three same stones of the same type and grit to flatten them on each other? Interesting. The only stones I have three times in my collection are some naturals CFs, Cotis, DTs ...).
Could be interesting to see how you don't embed the particles from Chocera in SS or Shapton.

---

Yes, three stones of the same grit and type. You can use these to
precisely flatten each stone.

Rub:
1 A on B, A on C, B on C
2 B on A, B on C, A on C
3 C on B, C on A, A on B

Every time you do this, your stones get flatter. Just make
sure that your stones are not convex because that would make
things worse as the stones while rubbing them would rock.

Sharpman

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Sharpman, First you need to clarify on what you are sharpening as in every other thread you have posted you have talked about sharpening Plane Blades and this is very very different then what we are talking about...

---

Gssixgun,

I don't think it would matter at all. Flattening is flattening. The only
difference would be that for plane blades one(I think) would be
flattening more often than one would need to do for sharpening
razors.

Quote:

---

To answer from sharpening Straight Razors..... I use a DMT 325 and have lapped Hundreds of Barber's hones, and have lapped my water stones Thousands of times, that includes Nortons, Naniwas, Shaptons, Coticules, Eschers, Chinese, Japanese, etc: etc: etc: and have never had a problem with wearing it out, or embedding grit...

---

I think you might not have noticed it, or it did not effect the result
very much. Diamond stones do lose, no matter how slowly, their
diamonds and there is no doubt that some will embed in the stones.
The effect would probably be very little if one goes from a 1000 to
a 3000 stone. But I do think that the diamond particles might be
problematic for the finishing stones.

I do remember some people writing that the DMT and atoma plates
mentioning these were losing their particles on the fine stones and this
resulting in a not so good polish sometimes.

Quote:

---

I wore out one 1k stone so far it was a Norton 220/1k and I finally wore out the 1k side at about 3500-4000 razors...[

This of course would have no correlation to honing Plane Blades as the steel , angle, and pressure is way different...

---

You make good points, but flattening is flattening. Whether one uses
a diamond stone or the three stone technique, the flattening itself is the same for sharpening razors as it is for plane blades.

The only difference would be the frequency of flattening.

Quote:

---

Edit.. I also used the "rubbing the stones together" routine way in the past, that is probably the best way to embed grit from one stone to another, at least in my limited experience with using it..

---

Yes that could happen as well. You got a good point there.

Maybe to solve this would it be possible to use a soft coarse stone to flattten the harder intermediate and finishing stones? I am thinking that because the middle and finishing stone are harder than the soft coarse(1000 grit) stone, the softer grit is much less likely to embed in the harder hone. Not sure though.

Just my two cents, which might be worth less than that.

Sharpman

Sorry but I disagree from experience...

One, the flatness of at least the DMT plates are way more exact then any water stone...

Two, the particle loss an the chance of embedding are a thousand fold worse with any other flattening media over the DMT plates...

Three, the fact that I have lapped literally thousands of times with the one DMT kinda tells me it is not shedding Diamonds at least not at any appreciable rate...

The same is also true of the Shapton DGLP except the part about lapping Barber's Hones

I have used the "rub the stones together" option in the past, the results are nowhere near as good... And I would definitely NOT rub any of my 1k stone together the chances of grit contamination form that would be much much higher then using a DMT...

Your idea of the low grit to a higher grit actual IME caused the worst of the embedding problems

Again I am speaking from Straight Razor honing experience, I have no experience honing plane blades, and those are quite different, so your results might be quite different too...
Note that I am only referencing the DMT plate(s) and the Shapton DGLP plate as those are what I have used...

[QUOTE=SharpMan;752456]Yes, three stones of the same grit and type. You can use these to
precisely flatten each stone.

Rub:
1 A on B, A on C, B on C
2 B on A, B on C, A on C
3 C on B, C on A, A on B

Every time you do this, your stones get flatter. Just make
sure that your stones are not convex because that would make
things worse as the stones while rubbing them would rock.

Sharpman

You are a lucky man. Is it more economical and effective for you to purchase 3 same hones instead of one and DMT plate. I am just imagining 220, 1000, 3000, 5000, 8000, 12000, 16000, 30000 and all of them 3 times. Can you succesfuly explain this to my wife? I promiss you a decent pint if you succeed.

I've been using a Shapton GDLP and a DMT 325 for a few years now with no complaints and I'm almost a compulsive flattener. I hone in the kitchen with the rock on the counter in front of the sink and the plate in the sink. Turn on the water and I might flatten a stone more than once in honing one razor. So far so good and no contamination from diamond particle loss with the plates. :beer2:

To address your original question, I doubt that you will find anyone using your "three stone" process who could advise you as to its effectiveness. To be honest, this technique sounds like the answer to a question that no one is asking. Of course this is just my opinion.

If you have a low grit stone that is flat enough to lap another low grit stone why do you need three of them? Just use it to lap the higher grit stones....of course, then it would be a lapping stone which brings you back to the beginning.

Maybe I'm missing the point here???:shrug:

WOW... out of words... uhhhhhh I would listen to Gsix. He kinda knows what hes talking about.

I have also used a diamond nagura and DMT plate at the XXC size and I can recall 1 time when a diamond might have embedded on a Jnat. The convenience, quickness and degree of precision of a DMT or Atoma is just head and shoulders above any other method I have tried. Though I am curious about the huge ceramic flattening plates.

3 stones to flatten each other out. I though my HAD was bad.:banghead:

[QUOTE=adrspach;752698]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SharpMan

Yes, three stones of the same grit and type. You can use these to
precisely flatten each stone.

Rub:
1 A on B, A on C, B on C
2 B on A, B on C, A on C
3 C on B, C on A, A on B

Every time you do this, your stones get flatter. Just make
sure that your stones are not convex because that would make
things worse as the stones while rubbing them would rock.

Sharpman

You are a lucky man. Is it more economical and effective for you to purchase 3 same hones instead of one and DMT plate. I am just imagining 220, 1000, 3000, 5000, 8000, 12000, 16000, 30000 and all of them 3 times. Can you succesfuly explain this to my wife? I promiss you a decent pint if you succeed.

---

LOL:)

No, I meant only three 1000 grit stones. Use these to get
all three flat.

Once they are flat, you can use one of them to sharpen your razor on
and you can use the other two to flatten other stones. So you could
use the other two like diamond stones.

Of course diamond stones remain flat and the 1000 grit stones lose
their flatness whilst flattening the intermediate and finishing stone, but
from experience I know this does not really happen fast. Especially when
the 1000 grit stone is hard, like a shapton pro.

Sharpman

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill S

To address your original question, I doubt that you will find anyone using your "three stone" process who could advise you as to its effectiveness. To be honest, this technique sounds like the answer to a question that no one is asking. Of course this is just my opinion.

If you have a low grit stone that is flat enough to lap another low grit stone why do you need three of them? Just use it to lap the higher grit stones....of course, then it would be a lapping stone which brings you back to the beginning.

Maybe I'm missing the point here???:shrug:

---

Well the thing is that the low grit stone does not remain flat, as you
know. So how do you keep it flat.

Which brings up my question. Does using 3 stones of the same grit(to flatten each other) have a real advantage compared to a diamond flattening plate?

In my question there is no 1 low grit stone that is flat and which is
used to flatten other low grit stones. You need at least 3 same grit stones
to get true flat surfaces on the stones.

So you have 3(minimum) unflat stones, by rubbing them in a particular order you create 3 perfectly flat surfaces. One stone can be used to sharpen, the other two to flatten the intermediate stone and the finishing stone.

Let's try this 32 stone method:

-For example let me pick the shapton pro 1000. If you are going
to buy three of them, you are spending about 3 times 50 dollars=150
dollars. That is a 100 dollars more on the 1000 grit stone than you would have spent if you bought a diamond flattening plate because then you
would not need the additional two stones. But the diamond plate
itself costs somewhere between 80-120 dollars(as far as I know). Not
to mention the expensive shapton diamond plate.
Anyway, so costwise(initial expenses), they are the same.

-Convenience wise, the diamond plate wins.

-Flattness wise the 3 stone method wins. Remember the three object
method is used to create surface plates and straight edges. But as you
use the 1000 grit stone to flatten other stones, the 1000 grit loses its
flatness whilst the diamond plate remains the same. So I am not sure
which method produces flatter waterstones.

-grit contamination. I would have thought the diamond stone would have
been worse in this aspect, but I am told by some members here, they don't have any ill effects. The 1000 grit stone could actually be worse.

-How long would the 3 1000 grit stones last this way compared to the diamond plate? I have read quite on some forums on this subject. I read
that on average the diamond plates(only used on waterstones) last about
2-4 years. They continue cutting, but very slowly and flattness becomes
an issue. Some say the diamonds just disappear on the plate, very little diamond particles remain.

I think the 3 1000 grit stones would definitely outlast the diamond stones
in this regard.

Just some thoughts.

Sharpman

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Memorael

WOW... out of words... uhhhhhh I would listen to Gsix. He kinda knows what hes talking about.

I have also used a diamond nagura and DMT plate at the XXC size and I can recall 1 time when a diamond might have embedded on a Jnat. The convenience, quickness and degree of precision of a DMT or Atoma is just head and shoulders above any other method I have tried. Though I am curious about the huge ceramic flattening plates.

3 stones to flatten each other out. I though my HAD was bad.:banghead:

---

That is interesting. I wonder could it be that the diamond particles
when they break of the plate, are so small that we do not really
notice them embedding in our waterstones.

Sharpman

Sharpman,

I think you might have to be careful.

(From my experience of making telescope mirrors) - you start out with two (2) plane discs of glass. By use of abrasive and rubbing motions against each other, one disc evenutally becomes convex, the other concave.

Could this happen in the case of hones rubbed against each other, particularly if the hardness of the two hones were similar ?

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PhatMan

Sharpman,

I think you might have to be careful.

(From my experience of making telescope mirrors) - you start out with two (2) plane discs of glass. By use of abrasive and rubbing motions against each other, one disc evenutally becomes convex, the other concave.

Could this happen in the case of hones rubbed against each other, particularly if the hardness of the two hones were similar ?

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ

---

Russ, very good point.

That is why I said you need at least 3 stones. Using two stones
causes one being convex and one being concave. This way, they
fit in each other.

The only way 3 stones fit in each other is only possible if they
are flat. That is why rubbing 3 stones in a particular order
does not cause concavitity/convexity, but perfect flattness.

You do need to make sure the stones are not convex, because
this causes rocking.

Check this link for more info:

Making Accurate Straight-Edges from Scratch

Sharpman

Sharpman, I see you can't be convinced. The diamond stones blow EVERYTHING away in any aspect. Do not believe us, go and buy your stones. Reading what you are writing, you never wanted to hear any opinions about diamond stones, you want to hear that your process is the best, and it owns diamond.

You say that diamond will get embedded, you say it won't be flat, you say it will wear out, but you don't have a clue about it, because you never tried it. Otherwise you wouldn't say such silly things. The diamond plates have been tested by thousands, and no one had a problem with them.

Its not a coincidence that everyone is using them, even those who are sharpening dozens of razors a day.

BTW, a 325 DMT costs about 50$ shipped, much cheaper than what you are saying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jeness

Sharpman, I see you can't be convinced. The diamond stones blow EVERYTHING away in any aspect. Do not believe us, go and buy your stones. Reading what you are writing, you never wanted to hear any opinions about diamond stones, you want to hear that your process is the best, and it owns diamond.

You say that diamond will get embedded, you say it won't be flat, you say it will wear out, but you don't have a clue about it, because you never tried it. Otherwise you wouldn't say such silly things. The diamond plates have been tested by thousands, and no one had a problem with them.

Its not a coincidence that everyone is using them, even those who are sharpening dozens of razors a day.

BTW, a 325 DMT costs about 50$ shipped, much cheaper than what you are saying.

---

Did you read this, quoting myself:

Quote:

---

Let's try this 32 stone method:

-For example let me pick the shapton pro 1000. If you are going
to buy three of them, you are spending about 3 times 50 dollars=150
dollars. That is a 100 dollars more on the 1000 grit stone than you would have spent if you bought a diamond flattening plate because then you
would not need the additional two stones. But the diamond plate
itself costs somewhere between 80-120 dollars(as far as I know). Not
to mention the expensive shapton diamond plate.
Anyway, so costwise(initial expenses), they are the same.

-Convenience wise, the diamond plate wins.

-Flattness wise the 3 stone method wins. Remember the three object
method is used to create surface plates and straight edges. But as you
use the 1000 grit stone to flatten other stones, the 1000 grit loses its
flatness whilst the diamond plate remains the same. So I am not sure
which method produces flatter waterstones.

-grit contamination. I would have thought the diamond stone would have
been worse in this aspect, but I am told by some members here, they don't have any ill effects. The 1000 grit stone could actually be worse.

-How long would the 3 1000 grit stones last this way compared to the diamond plate? I have read quite on some forums on this subject. I read
that on average the diamond plates(only used on waterstones) last about
2-4 years. They continue cutting, but very slowly and flattness becomes
an issue. Some say the diamonds just disappear on the plate, very little diamond particles remain.

I think the 3 1000 grit stones would definitely outlast the diamond stones
in this regard.

Just some thoughts.

Sharpman

---

I have used a diamond plate. Not DMT or Atoma.

The tone of your post is strange.

Sharpman

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SharpMan

The tone of your post is strange.

Sharpman

---

No, what is strange is you preaching this bizarre method of lapping while pretending you're asking a question. You also make a lot of incredible assumptions in order to make your point-- one of which is that razors require a honing surface that is less-flat than a plane blade. Perhaps, Sharpman, you would consider learning to hone a razor before acting as though you are familiar and competent with our methodology-- something which I would consider a common courtesy. I certainly would not have the audacity to come to site dedicated to straight razors to seek information about plane blades without showing at least some cursory interest in razors.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BKratchmer

No, what is strange is you preaching this bizarre method of lapping while pretending you're asking a question. You also make a lot of incredible assumptions in order to make your point-- one of which is that razors require a honing surface that is less-flat than a plane blade. Perhaps, Sharpman, you would consider learning to hone a razor before acting as though you are familiar and competent with our methodology-- something which I would consider a common courtesy. I certainly would not have the audacity to come to site dedicated to straight razors to seek information about plane blades without showing at least some cursory interest in razors.

---

Another strange post. It seems like I would be telling people to
stop using diamond plates to flatten and start using the three stones
method instead. I'm tyring to compare the two methods and am asking for information. Some things I know myself so I comment on that.

In fact I tell that using a diamond flattening plate is more convenient.
I also say that while the three stone method will give perfect flattness
on the 1000 grit stones, you will lose this flatness once you use
it to flatten other stones with.

Show me where I say that a razor would need a less flat honing
surface compared to plane blades. You can't because I did not
ever say so. The only thing I said in this regard was that the the honing surface of a razor probably needs less flattening meaning the frequencey of flattening is probably less.

When you sharpen plane blades, it is much more difficult to use the whole stone. So you quickly end up with a concave stone which needs flattening often. Because many people sharpening plane blades use a jig, this concavity should be corrected as soon as possible.

I am guessing that with a razor this is not the case becaues you
can use the whole stone.

My topic is about flattening with diamond stones vs the three stone
method. Pro's and cons. It's about nothing else.

Sharpman

Okay. I don't think that a surface flat enough for straight razor use, wouldn't be enough for anything else. You are saying that your 3 stone method will give you "perfect" flatness, but it won't. Maybe it will be flatter than with a DMT or DGLP for the firt 2 strokes, but after that, it won't make a difference. We talk about waterstones, that dish after all. It won't even make a difference on ceramic stones either, but on waterstones, that level of flatness you are talking about, it totally overshoot. Because the flatter it is, it will loose its perfect flatness faster.

So in my opinion your 3 stone method has no advantages. You would never feel the difference between the two lapping methods, besides that yours is more expensive, and slower.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jeness

Okay. I don't think that a surface flat enough for straight razor use, wouldn't be enough for anything else. You are saying that your 3 stone method will give you "perfect" flatness, but it won't. Maybe it will be flatter than with a DMT or DGLP for the firt 2 strokes, but after that, it won't make a difference. We talk about waterstones, that dish after all. It won't even make a difference on ceramic stones either, but on waterstones, that level of flatness you are talking about, it totally overshoot. Because the flatter it is, it will loose its perfect flatness faster.

So in my opinion your 3 stone method has no advantages. You would never feel the difference between the two lapping methods, besides that yours is more expensive, and slower.

---

Just to make sure I am not misunderstood. I am not saying sharpening
razors requires a less flat honing surface. I am guessing that since the
whole stone can be used whilst flattening razors, the honing surface
would require less flattening because(again guessing) it is inclinded to
stay flatter.

When you sharpen plane blades , usually the middle of the stone is
used more and therefore it becomes concave quickly requiring
the stone to be dressed more frequently compared to when sharpening
razors.

Ok, your point on the waterstone of 1000 grit being flatter initially but losing
this very fast(after a few strokes)is very good one that I brought up
earlier too.

This is what I was thinking. A finishing stone will require very little flattening
because it only polishes, so it dishes very little. So maybe the very flat 1000 grit stone would make a polishing stone flat before this same stone would lose its own flatness.

I am thinking this because I have used(as experiment) my 1000 grit naniwa
SS to flatten my 8000 grit SS. I noticed a lot of mud of the 8000, but almost
nothing of the 1000 grit. This made me think that a 1000 grit stone dishes
very little when flattening a polishing stone. Also the 1000 grit SS stone is
a very soft, muddy stone.

I have been told and have read that the shapton pro 1000 is a much harder
and significantly less dishing stone compared to the naniwa 1000 SS. So now I am thinking if my naniwa stone is dishing very little whilst flattening my naniwa polishing stone, then very probably the shapton pro will dish even
less whilst doing this same thing. Make sense?

I could just go and buy three shapton pros 1000 grit and test this method,
but because I am not rich, I thought why not ask the sharpening guru's
here(whom I respect very much!). Maybe they tried what I am thinking
and can tell me their experiences.

Sharpman

Additional info: I don't think it is important to mention that I
don't sharpen razors, but only plane blades. Flattening is
flattening as far as I know. The discussion is about the
pros and cons of using a diamond plate to flatten waterstones
vs the three stone method to do this same thing.

Whether a stone has dished because a razor or a plane blade
has been sharpened on it does not matter as far as I know.

So again, please lets keep the thread on the pros an cons
of flattening waterstones with diamond plates vs the three
stone method.

Thank you.

Sharpman

What we are trying to explain is that not one person Honing razors would use that method..

We don't need it on any level.. We don't dish stones, we barely touch the things and we simply re-fresh with a few quick laps of a Diamond plate/Lapping Stone and we are good to go... Even those of us that hone a ton of razors, most people on this forum hone maybe 1 razor a month if that they really would never use that system...

Even re-lapping the stones for flatness using a grid takes us a mere minute or two.. The initial lapping for flatness when we buy a new stone is the only chore, after that we rarely need to lap for flatness...

This is exactly what I have been pointing out all along, what you are sharpening and what we are sharpening are two totally different animals...

Which is exactly why most every one of your threads has the same discussion, which is why I explained that you need to make it quite clear that you are discussing Plane Blades ie: tools not Straight Razors as this will just keep happening...

And for one last time I don't know where you can up with the Diamond shedding thing but that has not been most of our experiences here on this forum ,,, The only problems people have had with Plates is Lapping without using enough water , to low a grit of stone that you are lapping, or a defective plate which is quite obvious...

Most Razor guys have one 1k stone and some don't even have that, there are a very few of us idiots that own more but honestly the thought of rubbing my Chosera against my King and my Norton or my Naniwa or Shapton to get all of them flat just really does not appeal to me in the least... Buying three stones that are all the same to lap them flat, would not be an option that I would choose either...


I don't know how else to word it and I apologize for coming on strong but you just don't seem to understand the differences between the two sharpening systems here...

let me illustrate


Plane Blades-------------------------Miles------------------------------Straight Razors

TBH I don't own a plane, have never sharpened one, and I don't have any interest in the topic. My thing is straight razors. As gssixgun points out, straight razors require a honing method specific to them that has no relationship to tool sharpening beyond utilizing some of the same hones. It is as if we were talking about ways of cooking soufflés and someone comes into the conversation with methods for pan frying steak. You are welcome on SRP but you might find a tool forum more rewarding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

What we are trying to explain is that not one person Honing razors would use that method..

We don't need it on any level.. We don't dish stones, we barely touch the things and we simply re-fresh with a few quick laps of a Diamond plate/Lapping Stone and we are good to go... Even those of us that hone a ton of razors, most people on this forum hone maybe 1 razor a month if that they really would never use that system...

Even re-lapping the stones for flatness using a grid takes us a mere minute or two.. The initial lapping for flatness when we buy a new stone is the only chore, after that we rarely need to lap for flatness...

This is exactly what I have been pointing out all along, what you are sharpening and what we are sharpening are two totally different animals...

Which is exactly why most every one of your threads has the same discussion, which is why I explained that you need to make it quite clear that you are discussing Plane Blades ie: tools not Straight Razors as this will just keep happening...

And for one last time I don't know where you can up with the Diamond shedding thing but that has not been most of our experiences here on this forum ,,, The only problems people have had with Plates is Lapping without using enough water , to low a grit of stone that you are lapping, or a defective plate which is quite obvious...

Most Razor guys have one 1k stone and some don't even have that, there are a very few of us idiots that own more but honestly the thought of rubbing my Chosera against my King and my Norton or my Naniwa or Shapton to get all of them flat just really does not appeal to me in the least... Buying three stones that are all the same to lap them flat, would not be an option that I would choose either...


I don't know how else to word it and I apologize for coming on strong but you just don't seem to understand the differences between the two sharpening systems here...

let me illustrate


Plane Blades-------------------------Miles------------------------------Straight Razors

---

My original post:

Quote:

---

With three stones one can make three(actually 6) really
flat surfaces. So you could use three 1000 grit stones
to flatten each other. Then one of these three stones
can be used to sharpen and the other 2 to flatten
the intermediate and the final polishing stone.

When the three stones are not flat anymore, you just
repeat rubbing them together to get them flat again.
Should not take long.

Why bother if one can just buy a diamond plate?

-Diamond plates are not superflat as far as I know.

-The diamond particles do shed and break and are
so hard they are likely to embed in the waterstones

So if you got a 8000 or even finer stone and you use
a diamond plate to flatten it, there is a (big?)chance
some particles of the plate will contaminate it and this
will effect the result.

-Diamonds are not forever. The plate can/will lose its
flattnes after some time.

###

Diamond pros:

-fast
-easy
-les messy

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I am considering buying a diamond flattening plate. The atoma 400
seems a good choice. I also need a 1000 stone. I could just buy
3 1000 grit stones and(see above) not need the diamond flattening
plate.

I know, some are thinking ''interesting, why don't you try it''. I aint
rich man Maybe some here have experience with the three stone
technique. Also since there are many sharpening/hone addicts,
perfectionists I thought it would be a good idea to ASK.

Thanks.

Sharpman

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Responses I got:

Quote:

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Sharpman, I see you can't be convinced. The diamond stones blow EVERYTHING away in any aspect. Do not believe us, go and buy your stones. Reading what you are writing, you never wanted to hear any opinions about diamond stones, you want to hear that your process is the best, and it owns diamond.

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Quote:

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Perhaps, Sharpman, you would consider learning to hone a razor before acting as though you are familiar and competent with our methodology-- something which I would consider a common courtesy. I certainly would not have the audacity to come to site dedicated to straight razors to seek information about plane blades without showing at least some cursory interest in razors.

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Quote:

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I don't know how else to word it and I apologize for coming on strong but you just don't seem to understand the differences between the two sharpening systems here...

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Sharpman

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

TBH I don't own a plane, have never sharpened one, and I don't have any interest in the topic. My thing is straight razors. As gssixgun points out, straight razors require a honing method specific to them that has no relationship to tool sharpening beyond utilizing some of the same hones. It is as if we were talking about ways of cooking soufflés and someone comes into the conversation with methods for pan frying steak. You are welcome on SRP but you might find a tool forum more rewarding.

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I am almost starting to doubt that.

Sharpman

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SharpMan

I am almost starting to doubt that.

Sharpman

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Looking at your posting history I see that all of your posts are related to hones. Many of SRP's members have a great interest in the topic and I am one of them. The thing is, while some members may have a background in tool sharpening, the SRP knowledge base is applied to hones relative to straight razors. Honing those is worlds apart from the techniques used in honing plane blades, chisels and the like. I think this is where there is some static arising in the dialogue.

I'm not suggesting you leave, but only that you might be happier in some place like the ShaptonUSA forum where people using the same assortments of hones discuss honing the same instruments that you are honing. OTOH, if you acquire some straight razors, begin honing and shaving with them we then have some common ground to help each other out.

I ride mountain bikes and road bicycles. I don't go to a moto cross forum to discuss riding techniques, tires and rims or wheelbuilding. I go to bicycle forums where people are doing the same thing.

I've come to know Jimmy quite well over the last couple of years and we talk here a lot. If he says you're welcome here then you can safely assume that he means what he says...!

The problem we're getting here is that you are looking at lapping plates and the technique of lapping as someone who hones plane blades. We are looking at the same thing from the point of view of people who hone razors. Whilst the idea behind this (having flat hones to use) is the same, the reality is different.

You say yourself that your hones dish out really fast, that they need lapping often and so on... For us, the hones hardly dish at all as we use little or no pressure when honing and a 325 DMT makes a fine lapping plate. I've used mine on my Shaptons, Naniwas and 1k Chosera plus all my naturals. None of those stones have diamond embedded in them and the DMT has worked great.

We often find knife guys coming here looking for honing tips running into problems as well, because knife honing and razor honing are two totally different beasts. The same applies with plane blades - The techniques simply are not interchangeable.

I completely understand that you are looking to compare your three stone method to our DMT/DGLP method. The thing is though, that your method is suitable for what you want to do and our method works for us razor folk.

If you come here and ask a load of razor folks what they think of a plane blade technique, they're all going to tell you that its rubbish and no good. Thats not because it is actually a rubbish technique, but because it doesnt work from our point of view.

You're asking the right questions, but to the wrong audience IMO.

Its like asking a Formula 1 engineer about tire pressures for the Dakar Rally. He'll know all about tire pressure within his field, but not so much outside it. The same applies here: We can talk all day about lapping hones for razors, but we cant really help you with your plane blade techniques.

Again, you are welcome here, but you'll probably find a tool forum can help you out more.

Alright, gents. I think this thread has gone far enough and shown where it will continue to go. This thread is now closed.