Printable View
This is a combination stone I recently bought from the UK. The other side is a Dalmore Blue but what is this side, could it be a Water of Ayr?
It was very easy to lap so pretty soft. I honed a razor on it and the scratch pattern was similar to that of a Coticule. So it's a finisher but not that fine.
It's 17.6 x 4.8 cm, dark grey with tiny even darker speckles.
Looks kinda like a Tam O Shanter....which is 8k btw, and very gentle finisher....good for blades prone to micro chipping.
It does look like a ToS but it's much darker. I assume it's either a ToS or a WoA. I also have one of those tiny WoA pen knife hones which is actually pretty light. Although that may be from when they called ToS hones WoA :thinking:
Here are some WoA pictures for reference:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/679082-post1.html
http://straightrazorpalace.com/628100-post59.html
If paired with a Dalmore Blue it is most likely a TOS.
The WoA dual hones I've see were all paired with a TOS.
The normal progression would be DB, TOS, WoA.
I should have added that there are two types of Tams. The white one is the razor finishing stone. The stand alone darker ones I've seen were labeled for tools.
There are more than just two types of ToS hones. The two you mean are pictured by Oldengaerde in the second link. The two WoA in that picture seem to differ as well. The left one has blotches while the other one doesn't but may have similar speckles as mine.
Btw I've seen similar blotches in the swirly figured ToS hones. Compare this one of mine to Gugi's WoA:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi...x-IMG_0246.JPG
I reckon its a WOA.
Here's one I sold last month, and a pic partially wet:
[ATTACH]Attachment 58755[/ATTACH]
If the colours are true it looks exactly like my Mauchlineware TOS hone. But that one is approx. 100 years old.
Even then the naming of the hones was inconsistent as you can read here:
William (1795 – 1847) and Andrew (1797 – 1869) were the youngest of five children born to William Smith, who was a mason (builder) in Mauchline, and his wife Jean (Nee Merry). The brothers followed their father’s trade. In the 1820’s both still bachelors, the brothers were running a Hone stone factory at Milton Mill, near the Hamlet of Stair, on the North bank of the River Ayr. It has been assumed that the Smith brothers started as Box Makers in the village of Mauchline because they wished to have their own source of cases for their “Water of Ayr Stones”.
I never saw a Machline ware razor hone called other than Tam O' Shanter.
To be honest. Some time ago I got interest in WOA and TOS. What interested me that some of them were light coloured with dark spots and some other way arround. Originaly I thought dark background with light spots WOA. Light background dark spots TOS. I thought different veins in same quarry could produce different hones (like coti/bbw or Escher/Thuri) However recently I have acquired a few I believe originaly labelled TOSs with coulor range all over the place. This meand I am back to sqare one. Hopefully I will be lucky for change to get a few WOAs to compare. From the picture I would say TOS.
Although some WoA hones seem like they could be speckled I can't see any when looking at close-ups of WoA's. Based on these close-ups a very dark ToS seems more likely than a speckled WoA.
It's still a very nice combination stone of course :)
Here it is with my penknife hone to show the difference in color.
WoW, Lot's of variances in those hones....Stands to reason since they're natural's....
looks to me to be a tos
The backside took a bit longer to lap, it's much harder and I ran out of sanding meshes the other day. I don't want to hold out so here it is.
I have been wondering what grit my tam oshanter hone is. I got it when my grampa passed I thought 10 k but people here are saying 8k good enough. kellyw
Tams really do vary. You need to test it against a known variable. Use an 8K like a Norton or a Naiwa, and see if it improves the edge. This could be a shave test, or you could use a microscope to compare the scratch patterns.Quote:
Originally Posted by HELLGAP
HELLGAP, the ToS hones vary in grit. Some experienced members are very confident their ToS hones are about 6k. The scratch pattern this one made was finer than a fast coticule and similar to a finer Coticule. Hence I'm guessing mine is about 10k.
Some members may be able to estimate the grit of yours if you post a picture assuming there's correlation in the appearance of a ToS.
Here are a couple picture I dont think they are very good but here goes. It says on the box its a very smooth slow cutting for fine tool edges. one the edge of the box says 5x5x1 .Tam O shanter scotch hone My guess was 8k but I dont have anything to compare too. Looks identical to the other one shown in this thread. http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/n...1-03-20001.jpg http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/n...1-03-20002.jpghttp://i304.photobucket.com/albums/n...1-03-20004.jpg
If it helps, here's a TOS from approximately 1880 in an original Mauchline box. I've included a closeup shot on white paper (for proper color rendition.)
The hone looks very simular in color maybee more gray but the bottom is near identical . Thanks for your help so far . kellyw
The picture above is almost a mirror image of my Machline ware TOS. The edge it produces rivals that of an Escher. Which however does not mean it has the same grit size. Grit size and honing results do not necessarily run parallel.
Seriously?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
I just lapped it for the first time this weekend, and haven't used it yet. I just assumed it was a mid-grit sharpener (too fine for bevel-setting and not fine enough for finishing.) But again: I haven't used it yet. Perhaps I'll slide a razor on it tonight. hmmmm.....
I'll report back later.
Tried the TOS last night.... I shaved off of it (after stropping, of course) and while it was able to shave, I wouldn't classify the razor as being "finished."
Perhaps that's just my hone, but I suspect that if I ran that blade over my Coticule then the edge would significantly improve.
I've had a number of tams come and go and still have two. I've never shaved off of one (after stropping of course) but I might give it a try. I have used one followed by a Water Of Ayr and the results were very nice. Right now I'm mostly finishing with a Nakayama asagi that I got from a forum member by way of So Yamash!ta. It seems to be the best finisher I've used to date but that is another story.
Where did you use the Tam? I figure that's certainly between a 1K and a Coti, precisely where I use my BBW. And while I've read with great interest all the recent hubbub about using BBWs from beginning to end I continue to treat it as a mid-grit rock best suited for sharpening, rather than bevel-setting or finishing. I think of the Tam in much the same way. Same for my Dragon's Tongue. For me, the BBW, TOS, and DT all go into the same use categoryQuote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
The only "hole" I can think of in my progression is between my Coti and the Charnley. Sometimes that jump just seems like too much. But it's probably my technique. Before everyone jumps in a screams "Escher," let's just say that I don't want to use one. The same goes for a generic Thury. I'm not in any kind of hurry to find a rock to go between my Coti and the CF; I love shaving off of both, but if I had to pick up another rock it would go there.
Interesting, Im not sure if I prefer my favourite Charnley or my Escher. Probably on most razors, the Escher, or my Thurry.
Back to Tams...Ive have had 2 - a 'White Tam' and a generic grey one. The White Tam improves an Naniwa 8k edge. I wouldn't say it is a particularly useful hone, as it is not as fine as a my coticule, neither is it as course as my 8K and the gap between them does not need bridging.
I really only use it when Im bored, or require a back-up hone when something just isn't working well.
It is meant to be great for razors prone to micro-chipping, however as far as I am aware I've not yet encountered this problem...
But we're rockhounds! Just possessing the rock is enough for me.
True that! :beer1:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scipio
Although, just to get back on track to the thread that has now been officially hijacked, I figure that there is a big jump from my Cotis to my CF, and have always been on the lookout for a jump-hone. It's not a big pressing need. I love the edge off my Cotis, and don't really care what "grit" they are. I use 'em and love 'em. I really only use the Charnley when I'm looking for something new to do.
side note: why are the images I've uploaded gone? I'm not hosting them; I uploaded them when I posted. It happened in another thread too. hmmmm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkinLondon
Not sure what you're using before the coti, but if I were going 8K - Coti - Charnley, and felt I needed an intermediate between the latter 2, Id get rid of the coti altogether (or use as an alternative finishing/honing system) and employ a 12k Naniwa, or a Thurry.
Then it would just be 8k - Thurry/12K - Charnley.
OR why not just use slurry on the Charnley?
EDIT: Just remembered you're signature. In that case go for a 12k Nani, 16K shapton or Thurry. I suspect you dont want a synthetic, so you're gona tend towards the Thurry. I wouldn't have thought you'd need it, but I dont know how fine your coti is so I can't say.
Different strokes for different folks. I have had a couple of Charnleys and didn't like them particularly. I've got a slue of coticules and have liked some of them but vastly prefer my Eschers. My j-nat may have shot them out of the saddle though.
As for the Tam, I was told by Randydance, that it is best used with slurry. I've used it following the norton 8k but that was a long time ago and I followed it with something else. That one is gone. I have a very light colored vintage tam that is great for sharpening pocket knives. I've not done much with it on razors.
I have a dual tam/woa that I've used with razors recently. Within the last couple of months. Norton 4/8, tam with slurry, woa to finish and got a very nice edge from that series. That is about the limit of my current experience with them but I will eventually mess with it some more.
That's all interesting. So you both (Scipio and Jimmy) would use the Tam after a Naniwa 8k. I just assumed that its natural place was before the 8k.
Scipio: I'd be happy if I only had a naniwa 1K and a Coti. I can do almost anything with that combo. And most of the time (because I know that my current razors have good bevels) I only use a Coti, foregoing the use of either the BBW or CF. Like I said: I'm very happy with my Cotis.
But when I'm playing around, I group the BBW, TOS and DT into the "sharpening" category of hone, and go from one of those to my Coti before calling it a night.
As for the Tam w/slurry, I'm still a bit uncomforatble using a DMT card as a slurry stone. I suppose that I've always thought that I was ruining a perfectly good lapped surface when I use that thing. If I had a Tam slurry stone then I'd try it. Still, slurry stones (in my opinion) only impact a hone's speed, not its "grit" level. I'm not sure that using slurry (or not) would move the Tam from prior-to-8k to after-the-8k.
Man, this thread is seriously hijacked. I feel like the Carlos the Jackel of SRP right now. We should finish this discussion in Tripoli or Havana and wear a beret with dark glasses and sleep with flaxen-haired beauties who drive wild and are fast with a knife. Or a razor. Whatever.
I guess I need to test my Mauchline ware TOS on more razors. It fixed my Thiers Issard Silverwing. I could not get it to shave comfortably using a modern day coticule, a vintage coticule, an Escher, a vintage Thuri, a Hohenzollern or even the Nakayama.
Could it be the Mauchline ware TOS's are finer?
Well, mine is certainly a Mauchline-ware TOS. The TOS won two awards, one in the 1880s and another in the 1890s, if I recall correctly. Mine is glued into a mauchline box with a stamp for only one of the awards, dating it approximately 1885. There's a photo earlier in the thread that only some of us can see. It's my understanding that in honor of the 100th aniversary of the Ayreshire poet Robert Burns' poem "Tam O'Shanter, The Ayrshire Hone Quarry (don't kill me people--this all from memory) renamed all their Water of Ayre hones to Jonny Suter, Tam O'Shanter, and another who's name I forget. There was an anouncement about the name change in the newspapers, and you can find it online somewhere. At some point when I picked up the hone I thought that it might actaully be a WOA because very few of us had ever seen a real one, and the manner in which they were named by the quarry is undocumented. I enjoyed being under the delusion that I might actaully have a WOA. This was, of course until I found tons of Tam photos. I've got a tam.
But it's also been mu understanding that the only Ayeshire hones comporable to Escher's, Charnleys, Fine Coticules, Nakayamas, etc... were the Water of Ayre hones, not the one's graded as Tams. So to hear that a Tam can be used post-coticule isn't something I can accept without testing it.
I've got the pamphlet, "Ayrshire Hone-Stones" by D. Gordon Tucker, that gives a history of these stones. My impression from reading it is that the various mines that harvested these stones were a bit informal in using the WOA name. IOW sometimes tams may have been referred to as WOA in past years. The WOA I've got is black and has no visible specs or dots as a tam does. Before getting that one I had and sold a small stone marked WOA Pen Knife Hone. It was very dark but had the specs characteristic of the tams.
Just my $.02 here... I have the light colored Tams with dark speckles. I have used it many times over a number of years. The best use I have found for it is with a slurry and used between a 4K & 8K. That is as a 6K stone. It has one great additional quality when used with a slurry. It removes microchips like a champ. Mine are very hard stones and it takes a lot to work up a slurry.
FWIW :)
