Think you know the Belgian stones?

For all you Belgian stone lovers out there, let me pose a math problem, for which I do not have the answer:

If the belgian blue is roughly 4,000 grit with 20-30% garnet crystals, and the coti is roughly 8,000 grit with 30-40% garnet crystals, and garnet crystals are what cuts the metal in our razors, then if you had to choose one stone as the only stone you could own, which would it be?

Keep in mind that: the garnet crystals in the belgian blue are larger and fewer, and the crystals in the coti are smaller and more plentiful.

and

Keep in mind that: you may occasionally have to reset the bevel, and you may occasionally purchase old razors just for the pure joy of honing them.

The Coticule without even thinking hard...

You're a good person for this question. Care to explain?

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

The Coticule without even thinking hard...

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Exactly what I was thinking, whilst not thinking hard.

Not really, as it is going to start another huge argument :)

Simply put, the right Coticule is a good solid performer in the right hands...

You have to understand that when you discuss any natural stone there are variances between them.....

Cotis are generally faster on slurry, so they are faster than a BBW for any work. Cotis are generally thought to be finer stones too. I would choose a coti.

Get a combo stone with a combo slurry stone.

Lol best of both worlds and you don't have to choose one over the other!

In the 1980s I used to go to barber shops and try and buy razors and hones from the old guys working there. I bought three separate coticules from three separate barbers. All were the yellow coticule with bbw reinforcement. Two yellow/blue glued and one natural. Reinforcement is what the blue was for and that is what each individual barber told me, independently. The yellow is the hone, the darker part is only there to protect the softer and more fragile yellow. In later years the quarries in Belgium began using slate to reinforce the yellow.

Some enterprising souls discovered that the bbw was a viable hone in its own right but it does not compare to the yellow. Never did and never will. The distribution and size/shape of the garnets is inferior to that of the yellow for the purpose of honing straight razors and that is not even debatable. Below is a page out of The Barber Manual, by Moler, circa 1921. Note the second photo of the page, where he states,"The rock is not a hone, simply the strength of the cutting part." He is referencing the bbw. They had not begun to use slate as a backing for the yellow until years later. Maybe the 1960s. The blue is alright for coarser work, maybe even better than the yellow for tools or knives, but for razors the yellow is the better hone.

Speed, performance and smoothness of edge the Coti wins for me. I have one glued combo and one older slate back. I never use the BBW side of the one. If it was a slate back I would be fine with that.

That being said both my Coti's are different. One is very yellow and a great smooth finisher. The other has a ton of red in it and cuts very fast (when it has a heavy slurry it cut like my 1000k stone) The both finish good, but I prefer the edge off the more yellow one (if that makes any sense :p)

The reason I say this is because natural stones (even ones mined from the same quarry and material) will preform different, but overall the coti will perform and it's been proven over time.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

The Coticule without even thinking hard...

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+1

Best Regards,
EL

A good coticule is far more versatile than a BBW, and there's nothing it can not do that a BBW can. A good coti can cut at 3-8K level with the application of slurry, and polish above 8K level, so it's not even a question which I'd choose given the choice.

In a way its ALMOST like asking, would you rather have: a 3/8 combo Naniwa, or just a 5K?

Another +1 for the coti.

I have a coti/bbw combo and I've used the bbw side all of twice. It just doesn't compare IMO.

The Coticule
It's great as a finisher and with slurry it's even more versatile.

I guess that settles that. I think I'll just imagine that my BBW is a sweet rock so I don't have to go out and sell it for a coticule. :cry:

No one said that the BBW is a bad hone, this wan't the question. BBWs are good, so are cotis. The majority like cotis better, if they have to chose only one. But HAD enables one to have more :D

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Originally Posted by daflorc

I guess that settles that. I think I'll just imagine that my BBW is a sweet rock so I don't have to go out and sell it for a coticule. :cry:

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I have found far more consistency amongst BBWs than among coticules, having said that I have not experimented much with the four that I have used. The general consensus is that they are all quite similar.

My point is that if you were to sell your BBW and get a coticule, many coticules are artificially bonded or naturally adhered to BBW, so if you were to sell it and get a combo, you'd still have a similar BBW.

BUT, (and I'm touching major ground for largely subjective debate) why do you want a coticule? I can advise that the vast majority of vintage Thuringians and Eschers which I have used have exceeded the edge left by the cotis I have used. In fact, they exceeded all but one coticule, and that is the only coitcule I ever kept, the rest never left a shaving edge to my taste; and it was en par with the Thuringians, neither better nor worse.

Do yourself a favour: obtain a vintage Thuringian.

Thank you for the reassurance that I didn't make a terribly wrong decision.

And,

Reason why I think I might want a coticule is because I like the idea of having in my possession a rather rare and coveted rock, which I can also sharpen razors on :)

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

The Coticule without even thinking hard...

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correctamundo :)

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Originally Posted by daflorc

You're a good person for this question. Care to explain?

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Your numbers are extremely insufficient to answer the question. You are forgetting that those garnets live in a matrix and its properties are just as important as anything else.

However the answer 'coticule' that you're getting is based on experience with these hones (multiples of them) and that final test how the hone sharpens the razor, not only takes into account every variable, but also is the only one that matters.

So, yes, if you've used these hones there is no need to think, they perform very differently and the coticule is much more versatile (on average, of course, the variations among both types are fairly big).

I have both and I like the coticule as a finisher and it gives me a good result. The Blue I mostly look at. It's too slow and I have other stones that work much faster. Yes it has potential but in the scheme of things there are just better choices out there.

Coticule. You can set a bevel and go all the way to a polished finish on one stone.

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Originally Posted by daflorc

And,

Reason why I think I might want a coticule is because I like the idea of having in my possession a rather rare and coveted rock, which I can also sharpen razors on :)

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I can totally understand HAD and wanting a coticule just to have one. Definitely nothing wrong with that. But it is a misconception to say that coticules are rare, and I don't think they are particularly coveted either (at least not as much as most other natural finishers).

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Originally Posted by daflorc

if you had to choose one stone as the only stone you could own, which would it be? ...you may occasionally have to reset the bevel, and you may occasionally purchase old razors just for the pure joy of honing them.

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This is like asking if I had to dig a ditch would I rather choose a teaspoon or a tablespoon

I'd choose the Norton 1k and finish my honing on strops.

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I'd choose the Norton 1k and finish my honing on strops.

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Clever answer, but I'd rather have go for 4/8k. Or Naniwa 3/8k. Same difference and both 'one' stone. Can set bevel and finish to 8k level

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daflorc

For all you Belgian stone lovers out there, let me pose a math problem, for which I do not have the answer:

If the belgian blue is roughly 4,000 grit with 20-30% garnet crystals, and the coti is roughly 8,000 grit with 30-40% garnet crystals, and garnet crystals are what cuts the metal in our razors, then if you had to choose one stone as the only stone you could own, which would it be?

Keep in mind that: the garnet crystals in the belgian blue are larger and fewer, and the crystals in the coti are smaller and more plentiful.

and

Keep in mind that: you may occasionally have to reset the bevel, and you may occasionally purchase old razors just for the pure joy of honing them.

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This math problem is as hard as asking who the president is of the USA given he lives in the White House, is good at basketball, his first name is Barack and his last name sounds like Osama to his daughter.

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Originally Posted by daflorc

For all you Belgian stone lovers
....snip....
and

Keep in mind that: you may occasionally have to reset the bevel, and you may occasionally purchase old razors just for the pure joy of honing them.

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You said "occasionally" and that decides it.

The majority of the time you apparently need to maintain
an edge. Thus for the majority of time you want a good coti.
Occasionally you want a more aggressive hone like a BB.
Should a good slury on your coti not cut it -- send it out or
pick up a 1K, 2K or 3K man made hone or a combo from
Norton or Nainwa. The choice has more to do with timing and
availability... and yes you can also get a BB if you see
one you want or a good price.

As for setting a bevel on the cheep check out
the 15 & 5 micron abrasive films from Woodcraft (Pinnacle
sharpening system). Applied to a solid flat surface like
a granite tile or plate glass there may be no more cost effective
solution for the occasional bevel setting need.