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Does anyone use an escher only (no other hones in addition) for maintaining a razor indefinitely? how effective is this? is this something that was common in the past?
i've heard some people say that when honing from a 1k bevel setter on up to escher one should reach a 12k hone before heading to the escher as the escher will polish slowly, but do little to actually sharpen. what do people think of this idea? any reason why a 1k->4k->8k->escher progression wouldnt be as satisfactory?
I do not have an artificial hone past my 8K Naniwa. I have successfully honed 1-4-8-Escher, with the application of slurry before finishing on just water on the Escher. (As regards to finishing with water alone or slurry on an Escher is another controversial topic). It would certainly be easier and require less strokes on the (considerably more valuable/rarer) Escher if one was to employ a 12K hone prior to the Escher, but I for one do not need to do so and I am sure several others would confirm this.Quote:
Originally Posted by ezpz
My coticule leaves a finer finish than the 8K and at times as I have used it as an intermediate between the 8K and the Escher; however in my experience it just is not needed. Some may tell you the 12k is preferable because the Escher is rarer and its against your interest to 'wear it down,' but I highly doubt you are going to wear it down anytime soon, or at all. My Escher was around a long time before me and I am sure should any of my successors decide to use it, it will too outlive their successors.
BTW, if you do decide to get an Escher, please post pics. These are my favourite finishers and in my opinion out rival ALL other finishers. And I've tried a fair few!
1-4-8 or 1-3-8 here also, then the Escher...
The trick to finishing this way is to be a shaving sharp before the finisher, I feel very comfortable at "Shaving Sharp" off of either my Norton 8k or the Naniwa 8k if you don't, then go higher first..
My finishing routine is about 20 Pigtail strokes with a light slurry then dilute out to clear water over the next 20-30 stokes... This gives me that buttery feel to the edge that Eschers and good Thuringens are known for...
So pretty much I agree with Scipio :)
Edit: I misread part of your question, and Yes you can use the Escher as part of a One Stone Honing regime look at the thread on it that Lynn and I did ..
It would work, but your 8K may work better if your razor starts to pull, then use the Escher to polish/refine the edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by ezpz
On the progression, to be direct...no, you don't need anything over 8K before Escher. Key is though, you must have the razor shave ready at 8K. Ensure your razor is shave ready at 8K by shaving with it, then refine the edge on Escher. Use Escher with a light slurry, then dilute to just water you will have no problems at all. :beer1:
I use some intermediate finisher stones before I take the razor to the Escher or any high grade Thuringian stone. Saves on the Escher. Learn your final finishers. My 2cents.Quote:
Originally Posted by ezpz
MIke
I routinely go to my Escher at the end of my honing routines or following the 8K. I have used, 1-3-8K, 1-4-8K and 1-5-8K followed by the Escher with great results. Typically, I use 10 no pressure X strokes with just water to finish on the Escher and in most cases, the razor is ready to go. It is one of the best finishing stones I have.
You can also use your Escher for refreshing and again I just use 7-10 no pressure X strokes with water.
Have fun,
Lynn
thanks for the replys.. once i get back a few other razors ill try maintenance honing with my escher alone.
i have a barbers delight escher. also a 1k, broken 4k (barely usable, fine as a slurry stone), 8k, swaty, slow coti (something like 7"x1.5") a fast coti (4"x0.5" still very usable).. ive got a few other hones elsewhere..
i wish i had a good 4k to work with so i could move from 1k to 8k without bridging with 4k slurry on my swaty, or skipping the 4k altogether..
my razor is a smiling near wedge, wide bevel and wide spine wear..i think the wide bevel and spine wear might slow my work down a bit.. but i think the smile slows me down a lot by reducing the amount of contact i get in a stroke.
i could picture using a swaty and an escher to more easily maintain an edge..
i last honed my razor with a coti, when it starts to pull should i hit the swaty and maybe the escher? straight to the escher?
my sense is that even 30 xstrokes on water with the esher wouldnt bring it back. this may because its a smiling blade that requires more, or that it requires slurry to compensate for any slurry dulling off the coti.
ezpz lemon squeez-ee,Quote:
Originally Posted by ezpz
I would do like Lynn suggested and go from the 8K to the Escher. If you have a big smiley you will need to do a rolling X or half moon stroke on the 8K. You have to get the smiling edge consistent from heel to tip before you can move to the Escher or you will become frustrated.
Depending on how much hone wear is on the spine you may need to tape. I don't like to tape but it can bring the angle back to what the OEM had intended for the blade.
You can do some passes with "gulp" slurry from the Escher, it will cut. then finish with just water and 7 to 12 feather light passes. This is why I use intermediate stones prior to my Eschers. I have used a Barbers Delight and it is an extremely fine stone. I hope this helps , have fun and practice.
Mike:D
yeah, i do rolling x's on all my hones, except for maybe my 4"x0.5" coti as it does it for me. i don't think my bevel angle has changed much at all. i also use the hht to check my edge all over.
Escher's make great finishers, as a matter of fact, it's my favorite finisher. I love the edges I get off mine. So buttery smooth.
I routinely go from an 8k to an Escher, You can also use it as a touch up hone in lieu of a Barber hone. If I have a blade that's dulling, tugging, pulling, I'll generate a milky slurry and do 10 lapps, then 10 with water...Good as new....
I use my Escher after the Naniwa 12k...is that unnecessary :hmmm:?
Here is my progression: 1-3-8-10-12-Escher... so I could just go with 1-3-8-Escher with similar or better results?
For touch up I do 10 laps with light slurry, and then 20 with water: HHT4 again or better. One question: I generate slurry with a DMT card (1200grit)...is that ok? unfortunately I do not have an Escher slurry stone...
I agree that the Escher is a great finisher. As far as using it for maintenance or one stone honing ..... look at the average price of an Escher as opposed to a Norton 4/8 or a Naniwa superstone. Like hi_bud_gl says, you're just wasting an expensive and rare stone to accomplish the same thing that you could with a less expensive and more readily available hone. I reserve my Escher for final finishing only.
Just buy a barber's hone for 30.00 and you'll be set, such as a swaty or a Carborundum.
I wouldn't use my YG escher as a barber's hone even though it'd work VERY well in that role, but why waste my $600.00?
ive never worked with a naniwa 12k, and for all i know i couldnt tell the difference between it and my escher. i do however prefer escher edges over my 8k, so if i stepped down to the 8k, id finish on my escher anyways.
if i work with slurry i guess i'd use up some stone. if i work with just water i'd hardly use up any at all. most ppl seem to recommend a few laps with slurry then a few laps with water. if i could maintain sharpness with an escher and water i wouldnt worry about using up the stone. as far as using the escher alone it almost seems like id have less honing to do as i wouldnt have deeper scratches from a more coarse hone to polish out.
my escher is thick, didnt cost me an arm and a leg (almost nothing), will last more than a lifetime. my escher rubbing stone will wear out before the hone will, but still probably not in my lifetime. i hope in the future some one somewhere will cut down an escher for those of us who need slurry stones.
ive got a swaty, what im pretty sure is a 00frictionite (looks like frictionite colouring, has some other imprint on it, but came from an antique store in a 00frictionite pouch which it fits perfectly) and a dubl duck razor hone. when it comes time for a touch up i might start with the swaty to bring it back, and see how i like that. if i get it sharp enough but not smooth enough ill head to the escher.
if i can use my finest finishing hone for maintenace, accomplishing everything in one step, i dont see why i wouldnt unless it took much more time. because im honing a smiling wedge i figure it might take a little more than 10 laps slurry, 10 laps water, but it seems like it shouldnt take an unreasonable amount if time.
one of the things im taking away from this thread is this: if i want my escher to cut use slurry. if i want it to polish, use water. sound about right?
disburden: okay, so i looked at your post again after.
and im still scratching my head a bit. wondering if you meant replacing the progression:
escher w/ surry -> escher w/ water
with
barber hone -> escher w/ water
or if you meant replacing my use of the escher entirely with a barber hone. having an escher without using it at all seems like a bigger waste to me. at that point your not wasting _some_ escher stone, you are wasting the whole thing by not using it at all! with the possible exception of the highly sought after norton razor hone ive never heard anyone saying they prefer the edges off their barber hone to the edges off their escher. so why not use the escher? thanks, just curious.
I respect the fact that the Escher is rare, but unless you're professionally honing razors i.e. more than touching up several razors, you'd have a very hard, if not impossible time 'wasting' the Escher. Considering both how long we live and that the Escher is there to be used, I say use it. A moot point besides is that most of our Eschers have had at least one owner before us.....though I know some of us are lucky enough to have NOS!
I have used my Barber's Delight Escher for a couple of years for one hone maintenance. It works very well. Nowadays I use the Escher first followed by the Nakayama.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ezpz
Usually when you need to touch up with a barber's hone, you need work done to bring the edge back because of pulling on your beard. I wouldn't use an Escher with slurry to sharpen a blade back from pulling, but that's just me. I would much rather use the 4 strokes with a Swaty and then polish on the Escher, otherwise you can take 300 strokes on an Escher to do the same thing depending on the color and how dull the razor was getting, etc.
I never use water on an Escher, only slurry, like the label said.
I disagree - you are saying that a razor that begins to pull would need 300 strokes on an Escher? And a barber hone, then an Escher is preferable?
If this works for you then that's great, but I highly doubt manufacturers of these hones ever intended for them to be used together in such a progression, or that barbers in practice ever used them as such. Reading has taught me it was one or the other.
The above is trivial, but I can confirm that if one of my razors is pulling, then FOR ME, USUALLY, 20-30 strokes on an Escher with slurry brings back that edge. As regards to wasting the Escher, I'll reiterate, it is what they are for.
If this merely polishes the edge and doesn't quite bring it back, I'll go to the coticule or the 8K.
I may have been exaggerating when I said 300 strokes on an Escher will do the same thing as a barber's hone but it depends on the color of the Escher and the barber's hones we're mentioning as well. The Dark blue Escher I once had was extremely slow and took a lot of slurried strokes (70 or more) to do what my YG would do in 20 strokes.
I only use my Eschers as an absolute finish polisher in my honing progression, sometimes after the 8K, Coticule, Jnat Oozuku Asagi combination that I've been using for a few months now. Coticules, to me, aren't fine enough to finish a razor alone but I like how they progress and lean my razors into my natural finishing progression which is why I use them. Some people may say that's nonsense...
When I use the Y/G Escher as a final polishing stone, I use about 40 strokes with slurry, I never really make less than that. I know for a lot of people I am someone that "uber finishes" their razors and that can be considered a waste of time, which is fine but I find I like the edges better when I progress through multiple finishing hones at the end of my Synthetic honing. The same thing can be said on how I recommend to use a barber's hone first to touch up the edge and then smooth it out on the Escher with slurry. I just think it's faster to use a barber's hone first and less prone to wearing the Escher stone that cost you $700.00 that is also a collectors item. It's true these stones were sold for a few dollars when they first came out and were intended to be used until gone but things change that mindset when there is a lot of money involved and as things become antique and collectible through popularity. I also doubt the creator of these hones knew they'd be used in a Naniwa 1K, Norton 4/8K, coticule, Jnat, Escher finish progression for a razor either...
Whatever works for you guys is fine by me!
20 laps on the Y/G Escher without slurry is all it takes to get a pulling razor back in business. Unless you are a professional honer you'll never wear your Escher out unless you tend to use a very thick slurry and wash it off after every razor you touched up. Besides. what's the point of sparing an Escher? It will survive you, your son and grandson.
Tools were and are made to be used.
Exactly. YOU ARE NOT GOING TO WEAR THE ESCHER WITH 'NORMAL' USE!
Another point I thought I'd mention - the HHT means very little, but do any of you find that it is harder to pass such test using an Escher, particularly with slurry? An 8K will pass it, a Charnley or coti usually does, but surprisingly not often with an Escher.
i found just that hht of escher reduced, if i went back to coti/water it improved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scipio
I remain curious.
I assume some, if not most, of you guys are using one piece of tape when doing your honing on the 1-3-8 hones and you probably keep the tape on when you go to your finisher.
Now my question…..when you later return to the finisher for a touch-up, in my case it would be a dark Escher, can I give it 20 or 30 laps without tape….or do I have to add tape for only the touch-up?
After all, I never strop with tape.
Thanks for your insights.
Freehand
If you use tape to hone then you need to use tape to hone, finish, touch up, etc. Even if you got to a pasted surface for polishing you should keep the tape on. Only remove the tape for normal linen and leather stropping.
ANY time you revisit the stones you will need tape unless you reset the bevel without tape.