Coticule help - have an edge, but can't get it sharp

My coticule arrived Thursday and I've been playing around with it on three different razors. The seller said it's a slower coticule, so it took me awhile to get an edge, but I kept trying and now my razors can shave my arm very easily.

The problem is that I can't get much smoother than that. I tried shaving with one and it wasn't happening. It just wasn't sharp enough.

I'm not terribly impatient and am not demanding that I get a great edge a couple of days after receiving my first hone, but I want to know what I should be practicing. Here are my biggest issues:

I think I'm going to water only too soon. The edge needs to be sharp enough to pass a HHT before I go to pure water on the stone, right? My razors are not doing so hot on the HHT right now.

If my stone is a slower coticule, I probably need to work longer during each dilution phase of the dilucot method, right?

Once my edge can cut arm hair, should I use any pressure at all from there out?

After the bevel is set, should I still do half strokes, or should I alternate sides between each stroke.

Should I ever wipe off the stone and create a new slurry using dilucot? The videos say no, but not sure if that applies to slow cutters.

Thanks for the advice. My wife thinks I'm crazy for spending so much time running a blade against a stone.

This is part of what is tricky with using a coticule to do everything - you need a good way to assess how the edge is progressing, and you need to know how to take that assessment of the edge and figure out what amount of slurry to use on the coticule. (This is really something that occurs with any one stone honing method, not just coticules.)

The various "methods" out there are best attempts to produce a repeatible process that will apply to coticules in general. But all coticules work differently, so those "methods" will not be optimized for YOUR coticule. They can be a good starting point, but you'll have to tweak what you are doing.

In order to tweak, you need to have a good way to assess the edge, and you need to have some idea about how your coticule is affecting the edge. Both of these become a lot easier with more honing experience, and that is why I don't recommend a coticule to a new honer.

What I would suggest is that you create a light slurry and start doing X strokes. As you go, check the edge periodically. Use whatever test you are comfortable with, be it TPT or HHT or an arm hair test or whatever. Keep honing until you get no more progress. Maintain a light slurry all the while - you may need to raise more slurry and/or add more water at various times. When you see no more progress, rinse off the hone and do the same thing (hone and test) with just plain water. This process should help you learn your coticule.

Don't get stuck on how your razor performs on the HHT unless you know how the hair sample you use performs at a given sharpness level. The HHT is worthless for me. I am bald and my wife and stepdaughter have extremely fine hair that usually won't pass a HHT with a pro honed blade that is a wonderful shaver. You need to develop tests that work for you. You do that through trial and error and really paying attention to every detail. I used to drive myself crazy trying to get razors to pass the HHT, now I don't even use it anymore.

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Originally Posted by McNutt

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The problem is that I can't get much smoother than that. I tried shaving with one and it wasn't happening. It just wasn't sharp enough.

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Every hone has it is maximum potentials . You need to make sure your coticule is suitable for putting final edge to the straight razor

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I'm not terribly impatient and am not demanding that I get a great edge a couple of days after receiving my first hone, but I want to know what I should be practicing. Here are my biggest issues

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I agree every single hone specially natural ones will take time to learn them.

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I think I'm going to water only too soon. The edge needs to be sharp enough to pass a HHT before I go to pure water on the stone, right? My razors are not doing so hot on the HHT right now.

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Not really just forget about HHT.

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If my stone is a slower coticule, I probably need to work longer during each dilution phase of the dilucot method, right?

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This is obvious slower cutting stone will take longer time.

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Once my edge can cut arm hair, should I use any pressure at all from there out?

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NO

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After the bevel is set, should I still do half strokes, or should I alternate sides between each stroke.

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Doesn't matter as long as you are making even strokes on each side.

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Should I ever wipe off the stone and create a new slurry using dilucot? The videos say no, but not sure if that applies to slow cutters.

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Yes you can

Thanks for the advice. My wife thinks I'm crazy for spending so much time running a blade against a stone.

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Have patience and gl

Have you checked out coticule.be?
I get a good result using chest hair for the hht, read that on this site somewhere but I can't find the reference right now.

I tried again with a slightly thicker slurry than I was using after the bevel was set. I was able to shave with the razor and am very happy. The razor was far from smooth, but that's something I think I can correct. I feel like I'm slowly connecting with the coticule now. Thanks again.

It takes a lot of practice to use the dilution method on a coticule and you need to really spend some time with your individual coticule to learn its characteristics.

You could also try the "Unicot" method, which involves creating a second bevel. I found it to be a bit easier than the traditional dilution methods, but i just dont like using tape because I am lazy.

Or it could be that your honing is fine and for whatever reason you do not like the edge off a coticule.

I would not worry too much about the HHT. Do you have any other razors that you know are shave ready that you could try the HHT on to see how your hair reacts to the test?

One of the things that helped me the most is actually seeing the edge that you're honing. Howto do that, the pocket microscope. Really though it does, it can help to tell you that you need more slurry or not. They're only about ten dollars on ebay.

Success!

Tonight I tried honing an old ebay razor that I hadn't touched yet. I used a pretty thick slurry to give it an edge. I did this in two phases, washing the coticule in between. Next I worked on the edge with a decent slurry, washed, and followed by a weaker slurry, etc. I went away from the dilucot method by washing the coticule in between instead of slowly diluting it, but the razor passed the HHT with flying colors and gave me a super smooth shave.

It's crazy the difference between a sharp razor and a really sharp razor. My other razors, even one that was bought "shave ready" hesitated a bit when they hit heavy patches against the grain. This razor never hesitated and my strokes had much more confidence.

Thanks for the help!

Easy coticule with slurry can take a fine edge off but perfect for getting bevel correct best reverse hone in circles, then to get an edge water onlyIf the edge still not there or comes off you know your getting there false edge has gone what we want,reverse hone with slurry you will get a different feel back sound as though you have no high spots,then water only very gentle hone the correct direction,super sharp should result,i swear by mine,maybe some feel skill experience needed but take it from me its not rocket science youl be fine.

I am a big fan of sentences.

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Originally Posted by adductum

Easy coticule with slurry can take a fine edge off but perfect for getting bevel correct best reverse hone in circles, then to get an edge water onlyIf the edge still not there or comes off you know your getting there false edge has gone what we want,reverse hone with slurry you will get a different feel back sound as though you have no high spots,then water only very gentle hone the correct direction,super sharp should result,i swear by mine,maybe some feel skill experience needed but take it from me its not rocket science youl be fine.

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The Coticule can have this kind of an effect on people. :shrug:

The Magical Mystical Stone that it is.

my personal experience with coticules is that they are so highly over rated as a finishing stone its down right disheartening. There are some stones out there i suppose that do a superb job, but of the 6 or so ive tried, and the razors ive sent out for professional honing on a coti, ive never been impressed. Theres a mystical code that needs to be discovered and cracked, and its different for every stone. the shaves are smooth but on my facial hair its tug central. My advice is sell it and get a known quality jnat. they are superior in every way to any coticule. check japanese-whetstones.com.

All I can think after looking at the price tag of those Jnats is this: There isn't any 8 x 3 x 1/2" rock on this planet worth more than what they charge for a quality coticule or Arkansas hone. And after Using a Welsh slate, I would be hard pressed to justify spending that. But to each his own. Maybe one day I'll stumble across a coticule for a good price in an antique shop.

Guys I,ve had several razors honed on several different stones, I guess I,m going to say that everyone likes their hones and will never agree. I shave with a razor that was honed on Jnats, and Zulu, and arks. Plus naniwas pretty hard to beat either, but the 12k naniwa followed by chrome ox seems as good as the others, all my blades are smooth and keen, also just now trying CBN and its doing pretty darn good too. Have not tryed a coticle or Escher yet, but I,m going to take a guess and say in the right hands they produce a great edge also. Those who swear by theirs usually have an investment that makes them like them more, no different than I feel I like my custom razors better than vintage, so there that should clear it up as good as mud, but a good synthetic is producing a lot of great edges. Tc

I've got a 175x40 La Grise and a #8 La Dressante bout. I've used them for over a year now. My first experience, I honed a non-shaveready Bismarck and got an exceptional edge. This can't be too hard... I have yet to win the same success on 6 other razors over a year's time. I can get a decent edge that shaves well enough, but I just can't duplicate the edges put on my razors by better honers with different stones. I believe I can get more out of my rocks with time, but am seriously considering a Black Ark for a new finisher.

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Originally Posted by Marshal

All I can think after looking at the price tag of those Jnats is this: There isn't any 8 x 3 x 1/2" rock on this planet worth more than what they charge for a quality coticule or Arkansas hone. And after Using a Welsh slate, I would be hard pressed to justify spending that. But to each his own. Maybe one day I'll stumble across a coticule for a good price in an antique shop.

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Alex posted a jnat from a Japanese site that cost $30,000. There is definitely a line of diminishing return. You can get great jnats for the same price, and cheaper, than coticules. If you email garret he will explain all of that. He has stones for any budget and use. My newest jnat cost more than I'd ever imagine spending on a rock, but it performs better than any other rock I've bought, and I've bought many. So in my mind it makes sense one really good rock is better than 10 mediocre ones.

Meh, I'm not knocking anyone's choice in what rock they use for their razors. Synthetic, natural, American, German, English, African, Japanese, Chinese...they're all a means to an end, and there's a chair for every butt. Just a matter of figuring out which chair yours belongs in. Just pointing out that my response to them is the same as when I saw the tag of a Thuri. "Probably a really nice rock, but not 400-800 dollars worth of nice rock..." YMMV.

I'm kinda with cau in that I want to pick up a black Arkie. But at the same time, I should probably just stop looking at all of these shiny naturals and learn to use the hones I already have at hand! :beer1:

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Originally Posted by prodigy

my personal experience with coticules is that they are so highly over rated as a finishing stone its down right disheartening. There are some stones out there i suppose that do a superb job, but of the 6 or so ive tried, and the razors ive sent out for professional honing on a coti, ive never been impressed. Theres a mystical code that needs to be discovered and cracked, and its different for every stone. the shaves are smooth but on my facial hair its tug central. My advice is sell it and get a known quality jnat. they are superior in every way to any coticule. check japanese-whetstones.com.

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Coticules rule, It's that simple,,,, Excalibur was honed with a coticule

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Originally Posted by prodigy

Alex posted a jnat from a Japanese site that cost $30,000. There is definitely a line of diminishing return. You can get great jnats for the same price, and cheaper, than coticules. If you email garret he will explain all of that. He has stones for any budget and use. My newest jnat cost more than I'd ever imagine spending on a rock, but it performs better than any other rock I've bought, and I've bought many. So in my mind it makes sense one really good rock is better than 10 mediocre ones.

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In Japan there are those who purchase Jnats as collectable items. They don't use them. They display them and prize them for the location they came from and the patterns on the stone as well as the composition. 30 Grand (to those folks) isn't a lot of money for one of these babies. I've been told some sell for over 100 grand.

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

Coticules rule, It's that simple,,,, Excalibur was honed with a coticule

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I doubt that I will ever take advantage of Lynn's free first honing on my new Boker, but if I ever do there will be a note to him requesting that the razor be honed on his coticule. All these years of shaving with a coticule finish edge is why I hate my shavette and safety razors.

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

Coticules rule, It's that simple,,,, Excalibur was honed with a coticule

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You're sure it wasn't a Welsh slate...? Lynn Melynllyn perhaps?

Try honing under slow running water. No slurry or anything. My Coti became a new stone when I tried that. From what I understand, before the 50's or 60's Coti's were never sold with a slurry stone.
any way it's working for me. Did you flatten your stone before using it?

Slawman

Slawman is right. I'm still new with coticules, but I have had a lot more great results with just running water then with slurry's

Off the wall question, but I always thought the slurry was for the "between phases" to make it behave like a lower grit hone, and you wanted to dilute it until the final phase where you end with just a little water on the hone - or perhaps running water if that's an option. I can see where that would be beneficial. Is that not the case?

Yes, it is very much the case. The slurry works by using loose garnets moving between the blade and the stone akin to lapping paste. The steel is removed relatively rapidly in this method. As the slurry is diluted, the number and density of garnets is reduced accordingly and cutting is slowed. With water only, you are only cutting with the very tops of garnets that remain embedded in the stone. Because the exposed part of the garnets is more rounded in appearance than spiky, they produce a very smooth edge, are much less prone to microchipping, and make overhoning more difficult if not impossible. However, this same structure also means that they don't produce acute microserrations that other hones (especially synthetics) do and are perhaps less forgiving of less keenness.

See the following for more information:

http://coticule.be/dilucot-honing-method.html

http://coticule.be/faq-reader/items/...garnets41.html

http://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/info%2020...whetstones.pdf

See pages 14 - 17 of the latter.

As far as using water only, that's what you should be doing when finishing - you will never get a satisfactory shave off slurry. You do not need to use running water, just keep the water on the surface refreshed as needed to prevent drying out. Some coticule veins tend to self-slurry when honing with water, and the water will require constant refreshing with these types. See this document for detailed descriptions of the different veins, how they behave with water vs. slurry, and much more:

http://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/info%2020...whetstones.pdf

Exactly sqzbxr......keep the thing super wet. I don't use running water but I have a spray bottle at the ready and keep it flooded with water.

I got my coticule and my Wade and Butcher when some cousins cleaned out my great uncle's personal belongings. I know the thing is over 100 years old because he was born back in the 1870's. What was neat about this stone is that it came to me virtually unused. The top had never been lapped and the layer of coticule is thick. I lapped the thing on 1500 w/d..........took forever but I have a stone that I protect with my life.

Great story about the history of your great uncle's hone! Would love to see some pictures if you get the chance.

For finishing, I was told to use the running water to keep the loose garnets & swarf away from the blade so you have less scratches to deal with.I tried it both ways & looked at both edges under my microscope & the edge looked less scratched with running water. Lord knows I am no expert by any means But this made a difference.
Today I picked up some 12,000 grit I guess it's nano cloth or cloth backed sand paper. I have an old L. West razor that I had worked up to 10,000 on stones& I just did 20 rounds on this material & 50 rounds on my Koken shell Horse hide strop & WOW, I could never get this razor to cut hanging hair & it did it well. I am a happy camper!

Dave Huffman ;-)

I think ive got it right,a coticule produces the best shaving edge not the sharpest necessarily.A synthetic stone can produce an extreemly sharp edge,unfortunately often producing an uncomfortable shave due to scratching pattern on the edge,fortunately for us if that blade is subjected to a coticule water only no slurry,one can get the best of both worlds,the coticule will not remove the super sharpness of the synthetic,but will smooth out the scratches,giving the best shave.I believe a coticule is best for bevel use as the slurry, although will take the extreemly sharp edge off a well honed razor, will for bevel use keep
burrs and false edges at bay creating the perfect bevel.Anyhow that is how i understand it.Unfortunatly i have a couple of french razors and a japanese that doesnt do too well due to very hard steel on my coticule
Ive ordere a Sigma 11 select for this, i will give a final finish on the coticule without slurry for the perfect edge.Sorry if the English is not up to much.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I am a big fan of sentences.

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Take it easy on Gary Haywood, he's a coti expert.

Alot depends on your individual coticule. Rather then going by vein, go by hardness and speed and time. Harder coti's will often take more time, while coarser ones most often take less at setting an edge. I don't bother with that x-stroke and pressure crap. I use have strokes with consistent pressure like I was using an erasure on a pencil marking and go through 3 stages (heavy slurry, BBW or medium slurry and light slurry to water only or even water with dish soap). I get consistent results everytime and I find cotis to be easy and an enjoyment to use compared to the boring synthetics where you have to count strokes and get predictable results.

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Originally Posted by prodigy

my personal experience with coticules is that they are so highly over rated as a finishing stone its down right disheartening. There are some stones out there i suppose that do a superb job, but of the 6 or so ive tried, and the razors ive sent out for professional honing on a coti, ive never been impressed. Theres a mystical code that needs to be discovered and cracked, and its different for every stone. the shaves are smooth but on my facial hair its tug central. My advice is sell it and get a known quality jnat. they are superior in every way to any coticule. check japanese-whetstones.com.

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You must have had the misfortune of being given 6 or so duds for coti's. My la grosse jaune leaves an edge, second to none, including the J-nats. I'm talking sharp as a shapton and velvety smooth. I personally, would rather use coticule then anything else to be quite honest.

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Originally Posted by Benz

I doubt that I will ever take advantage of Lynn's free first honing on my new Boker, but if I ever do there will be a note to him requesting that the razor be honed on his coticule. All these years of shaving with a coticule finish edge is why I hate my shavette and safety razors.

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This.

After shaving with a coticule edge for nearly a year now, I'll never go to a synthetic. The edges I am getting are so good to my skin, that the harshness of a synthetic has no appeal to me.

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Originally Posted by Slawman

For finishing, I was told to use the running water to keep the loose garnets & swarf away from the blade so you have less scratches to deal with.I tried it both ways & looked at both edges under my microscope & the edge looked less scratched with running water. Lord knows I am no expert by any means But this made a difference.
Today I picked up some 12,000 grit I guess it's nano cloth or cloth backed sand paper. I have an old L. West razor that I had worked up to 10,000 on stones& I just did 20 rounds on this material & 50 rounds on my Koken shell Horse hide strop & WOW, I could never get this razor to cut hanging hair & it did it well. I am a happy camper!

Dave Huffman ;-)

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An easier and even more effective method is to use water mixed with dish soap. The slickness of the dish soap takes it to a different level that water only hasn't yet done for me, in fact I can get my edges wicked sharp using this method.

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Originally Posted by adductum

I think ive got it right,a coticule produces the best shaving edge not the sharpest necessarily.A synthetic stone can produce an extreemly sharp edge,unfortunately often producing an uncomfortable shave due to scratching pattern on the edge,fortunately for us if that blade is subjected to a coticule water only no slurry,one can get the best of both worlds,the coticule will not remove the super sharpness of the synthetic,but will smooth out the scratches,giving the best shave.I believe a coticule is best for bevel use as the slurry, although will take the extreemly sharp edge off a well honed razor, will for bevel use keep
burrs and false edges at bay creating the perfect bevel.Anyhow that is how i understand it.Unfortunatly i have a couple of french razors and a japanese that doesnt do too well due to very hard steel on my coticule
Ive ordere a Sigma 11 select for this, i will give a final finish on the coticule without slurry for the perfect edge.Sorry if the English is not up to much.

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My razors are TI's with the new Carbonsong 135 steel, they are probably the hardest steel of any carbon steel razor out there, but the coticule works wonders on these. Maybe using more pressure will solve the issue for you?

Coticules will cut pretty much any steel. Mine cut my HSS (high speed steel) razor with no issues. The problem most people have with them I think is that in going from slurry to water they aren't working back down to the apex. Using slurry slightly convexes the bevel, and for some coticules it takes a LOT of honing to get back to the apex on straight water (if you switch from slurry directly to straight water it will be very obvious that all the work is being done on the bevel on the side away from the apex - it will get very shiny there and remain dull at the apex end).

That is why in many cases I recommend unicot method for folks new to coticules. If you are having trouble getting a good edge with a coticule, put a layer of tape on the spine and do 30 laps on straight water then strop - if that doesn't get you a good shaving edge, something else is wrong - like your bevel isn't fully apexed.

The only exception to that would be if you have a very soft coticule that self-slurries. Those are tougher to get a good finish on. You can try finishing under running water but that may not do it either - last ditch you can polish the surface up to a high level with wet/dry to something like 2k and then try again under running water.

I'm going to experiment with moving from the coti on water to moving to the BBW on soapy water since the BBW has fewer garnets.