Caborundum 102- ??????

So after seeing a bunch of threads on these little carborundum barber hones, I took a look at ebay and the prices sure seemed right, so I got a 102.

I cleaned it up, and it sure is a neat little guy, in his old box. But when I decided to test him out, I was left with some pretty big questions.

What I did was this--I honed out a Hjelestrand I got recently to 12K on naniwa SS. I had a mirror bevel, and I gave it TWO x strokes on the dry 102. (The box clearly says it's ok to use dry.)

A couple of things happened. Under the microscope, the bevel was completely trashed. I mean, huge, deep scratches. The edge was turned into a hacksaw, as well.

Then, the arm hair test--I've honed enough razors to have the AHT calibrted to my face now, and I can tell with pretty good accuracy how well a razor will shave off of how it acts on MY arm hair. (Your results may vary, of course).

I had been getting nice, quiet lay-downs off the 12K, the hair falling like grass before the scythe. After the two strokes on the 102? Nothing. I could shave hair off my arm, but it tugged and pulled something awful.

You couldn't PAY me to shave off of that edge.

What's more, to hone those two strokes out, I had to drop back down to 5K to do anything to them; 8K wouldn't dent them. So from all I can see, my Carborundum 102 is roughly 1K. Maybe 800.

So, either the hone I have (which fits the box it came in perfectly) is not actually a carborundum 102, or y'all have some tough old faces...

Jim you are correct. i can say there is 2 possibilities. In fact they are pretty fast cutters. will kill the almost shave ready edge.
Next is you have clean it up. if you could saturate the stone in the Vaseline it will slow down the stones cutting power.Then you should be ok.

I wouldn't use it dry, that's just me. What I would do is use lather thinned out with some water so the hone is less rough. Also vaseline, like Sham said, smooths the stone out. Some of the boxes say to cook the stone in vaseline to seal the pours.

Barber hones in general, unless it's a norton one or something similar, is not going to be like a 12K SS edge anyway. When I use barber hones and the like I always follow them up with some paste to smooth the edge. Can we see pictures?

Sham, if they kill almost shave ready edges, then I don't really get how they can restore non-shaveready edges.

I did clean it, soaked in alcohol and scrubbed with a brush and cloth till no more oil came off.

Disburden, you use a barber hone and then a pasted strop? Doesn't that defeat the stated purpose of a barber hone, namely something you can use for a couple of strokes mid-shave to bump up a dying edge?

I might as well just keep a naniwa 12K in my bathroom...

I'll post pics in a bit.

I usually use Cerium which I don't think really sharpens much but adds mostly smoothness to the edge. Barber hones are cool and I do use them from time to time but remember they usually finish at 8K so if you want more you need to move up to something else after a touch up.

Why this stone ruined your edge is a question for me too...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimR

So, either the hone I have (which fits the box it came in perfectly) is not actually a carborundum 102, or y'all have some tough old faces...

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Or there may be something faulty about the stone, especially if you need to drop back to 5k to restore the edge

Does the box say "Razor Hone?" The Carborundum company changed product lines a few times over the years, and that means you'll find the same model number on the finest grit razor hone as well as the lower grit carpentry stone. (I think I posted something about the #201 in that case.)

Christopher

I have plenty of Barber hones. None sound like Jim's. I do use mine dry, with great results. I normally use a Swaty.
Jim: Yours does not sound like a finisher, especially if it'a a Carbo. Aren't they usually rough, like you said, 800-1k grit?
Utopian is the expert around here on Barber hones....

It really sounds like the stone does not go with the box. Either that or the hone has a high side.

Jim what is the exact dimensions of your stone. Your stone shouldn't act as 1k level. there is no way but carborundum will kill the shave ready edge. The reason stone acts such a matter is it is powerful cutter and user experience with barber hones.
if you have made more strokes with more pressure your edge will get chipped. i know you said you have done very few strokes.

Gentlemen, the box certainly says razor hone.
Attachment 66608
Attachment 66606
It's right at 10cmx3.7cm, or about 4x1.5 inches.

In addition, I also just got a 103 (this one is stamped 103 razor hone on the stone). It was slightly dished, so I lapped it out before I tried it. Comparing the scratch patterns from the stone, the 103 was much MUCH finer, so I reckon something's amiss.

I didn't lap the 102 at first, just scrubbed it with alcohol, acetone and a stiff brush.
Attachment 66609
Thinking this might not have been enough, I lapped one side.
Attachment 66607
I have not yet tried the lapped side, so there might simply have been something on the unlapped surface of the hone.

Attachment 66605

Can't help you out with your 102 but I do have a 103 which I'm very pleased with. Did you have a stone stamp on your 102 or just a box stamp? Both came stamped on mine but cleaning the hone removed the stone stamp.

I'd wager the stone and the box are perfect matches. The stone just needs a little lapping love. =)

Enjoy,
Me

if you use Carborundum stone on a blade which finished on Japanese or and Escher before your blades edges will have saw tooth if you inspect the edge under 100x magnification.
Let me explain a little more.
when you hone the blade on finishing hones(japanese ,Escher etc) usually end of the honing you will have perfect straight line edge.
if you instead of finishing stone use carborundum stone you will not have that line. you will have saw tooth edge?
This is what happens(my thinking)
You check the edge under magnification and see the edge similar to 1k level(saw tooth) and this is confuses you.
You think every single time when you check the edge if you see saw tooth that means edges level in 1k around.
In reality it is not so.
you would have saw tooth on 1k level or 8 k level.(this will make you more confuse).I fully understand this is new for most of You.
Now if you pick up 8k level saw tooth edge and shave with it you will be fine.
Excellent example to this will be Turkey oil stone.
when you use that stone edge will form saw tooth but that edge will cut similar to 8 k level edge.
hope this helps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

if you use Carborundum stone on a blade which finished on Japanese or and Escher before your blades edges will have saw tooth if you inspect the edge under 100x magnification.
Let me explain a little more.
when you hone the blade on finishing hones(japanese ,Escher etc) usually end of the honing you will have perfect straight line edge.
if you instead of finishing stone use carborundum stone you will not have that line. you will have saw tooth edge?
This is what happens(my thinking)
You check the edge under magnification and see the edge similar to 1k level(saw tooth) and this is confuses you.
You think every single time when you check the edge if you see saw tooth that means edges level in 1k around.
In reality it is not so.
you would have saw tooth on 1k level or 8 k level.(this will make you more confuse).I fully understand this is new for most of You.
Now if you pick up 8k level saw tooth edge and shave with it you will be fine.
Excellent example to this will be Turkey oil stone.
when you use that stone edge will form saw tooth but that edge will cut similar to 8 k level edge.
hope this helps.

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A lot of insights here.

A stone whose abrasives are low in Mohs hardness(stone medium can be dense but without abrasives being hard enough) can polish the edge without sharpening it in a lasting manner(some barber hones). A stone containing abrasive of higher hardness can sharpen the steel in a lasting manner without giving a mirror polish(the natural material corundum, the purest form of natural aliminium oxide stone could be an example for this).

Vaseline idea sounds interesting.

Carborundum stone involves some type of pressure chamber for its abrasives' processing combined with a sintering process. It would be still a challenge to control the pressure chambers to continuously get the desired hardness for the material. The homogeneousity of the crude abrasive in size and hardness could be desirable for better results. In short, this could be simply be a bad apple.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SewerGuy

Can't help you out with your 102 but I do have a 103 which I'm very pleased with. Did you have a stone stamp on your 102 or just a box stamp? Both came stamped on mine but cleaning the hone removed the stone stamp.

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I have to go along with this post, I have both. The 103 is the finer of the two and is the only thing that will make an edge on a no name solingen I have. The 102 seems to be a good bit coarser than the 103. The earlier post of using petroleum jelly or lather might make a great deal of diference. The 102 seems a bit smaller in size than the 103; if only by a couple mm.
Respectfully
~Richard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

if you use Carborundum stone on a blade which finished on Japanese or and Escher before your blades edges will have saw tooth if you inspect the edge under 100x magnification.
Let me explain a little more.
when you hone the blade on finishing hones(japanese ,Escher etc) usually end of the honing you will have perfect straight line edge.
if you instead of finishing stone use carborundum stone you will not have that line. you will have saw tooth edge?
This is what happens(my thinking)
You check the edge under magnification and see the edge similar to 1k level(saw tooth) and this is confuses you.
You think every single time when you check the edge if you see saw tooth that means edges level in 1k around.
In reality it is not so.
you would have saw tooth on 1k level or 8 k level.(this will make you more confuse).I fully understand this is new for most of You.
Now if you pick up 8k level saw tooth edge and shave with it you will be fine.
Excellent example to this will be Turkey oil stone.
when you use that stone edge will form saw tooth but that edge will cut similar to 8 k level edge.
hope this helps.

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Sham,

As I said, I tested the stone on a razor finished on a 12K artificial hone, not on a natural hone. The scratches were very coarse, and the razor would no longer cut--I don't automatically assume that the razor is 1K based on anything other than that the razor wouldn't cut, and in order to hone out the scratches at all I had to drop back down to 5K.

None of this is new to me, except the idea that a barber's hone would be so destructive to a razor's edge.

I've since lapped the (presumable) 102, and while it has helped I still find it much coarser than the 103.