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Hi Gents,
I recently won the March Giveaway and in the prize there's a Arkansas translucent hone. I want to know if I should use her as a finishing stone or more of a ''quick fix'' barberhone style?? I dont know nothing about that kind of stone. Thanks.
For reference I have a Norton 4/8K, a12K Japstone and two ceramic hones 5-8K.
cheers
AFIK there is nothing "quick" about an Arkansas when applied to razors. I may be wrong though, I was wrong once before. :shrug:
Ok, I think you get it wrong. What I want to know is in wich categories does it goes. Is it a finishing stone?
It is a finisher, "Allegedly" as with any natural stone, each stone has it's own character, so it needs to be worked to see what it can do, try it first after the 8k Norton has the razor shave ready...
I would suggest 75 laps with a real honing oil as a starting point and work from there...
I have used a black Arkansas to finish a razor and it worked ok. It and the translucent are supposed to be rough equivalents. I've hoped that someone with both hones and a good microscope and camera set-up could show scratch patterns of the Arkansas hones with comparisons of the scratch patterns of other finishing hones, both natural and manufactured. With one person using one razor it would be a wonderful demonstration of the comparative fineness of various stones - irrespective of their supposed grit ratings.
Ah, the things we wish for. Hmmm? :hmmm:
:beer2:
I've got a nice vintage Pike translucent and i really should test it out with a razor. I like it for my pocket knives. A forum member who hasn't been around in the last few years, Russel Baldridge, has posted a bit on honing razors with arks and he said they are not bad, not great , but very slow in any case. Just hearsay but that is my story and I'm sticking to it.
I have one and I will offer two observations.
One is that it is slow, super slow. Mine is certainly a finisher though, I have not noticed the water darkening on top of it even in long honing sessions. Not all may be like this though, from what I hear it has a large part to do with how the surface of the stone is prepared and worn - the smoother the stone, the finer the finish.
Second point is to compare the edge to what I get off my coticule - personally I find that shaving off it has a little more "bitey" feel than the coticule which is smoother feeling, although it does not leave my skin any worse off. It gets a little closer than the coticule as well, I think this particular stone compared to my particular coticule gives more "ultimate sharpness" at least with my hair/skin. YMMV.
Look on Youtube under Mastro Livi and snake razor. he finishes on one.
As for a closeup comparison of the edges produced by different stones, I have some related info, but I can't get the pictures on here. It's from a magazine. Fine Woodworking Magazine did an extensive test of finishing stones on plane irons made of O1 steel. They have magnified closeups, issue July/August 2002, "Sharp and Sharper." Translucent Arkansas stones produced a good edge, but not the best, smooth but with some irregularity that would be slightly scratchy. Norton 8000 produced the best edge of all the sharpening methods, producing a very straight edge with almost no edge irregularities or irregular scratch patterns, and even beating the natural and synthetic imported Japanese stones in 8000 grit. The very finest, sharpest edge was produced by finishing the blade first on a Norton 8000, then on a flat maple board coated with .5 micron diamond paste.
Hope this helps.
I have gotten a few good edges off the translucent. I would not condider myself an expert with it because I have only tried it a few times on razors. I finished up to 8k level than on a well worn in stone with soapy water I gave a 10-15 minutes worthe of very light strokes on it and it gave me very good edge. The stome has to be super slick for best results when used this way. If your stone has not been worn in your results will not be the same.
The slow cutting nature of the stone and not being too much harder than the razor steel is a blessing and a curse. It works very slowly which means you need to spend more time on it and the nature of the material itself makes it cut much finer than it's estimated grit size.
They stay flat for a very long time and are very fun to work with when playing with slurries on them from other stones which virtually changes the nature of the stone. I tried some .25 micron CBN spritzed on top of Translucent that turned the bevel into a mirror under magnification. Definitely woth playing with FME if you have the time.
I do have to emphasize that the surface has to be dead flat and polished FME to get best results. Hope this helps..
I've been meaning to try diamond paste on my hard black arkansas stone. It gets a razor sharp edge on its own, I'm talking woodworking sharp, I've never tried to shave with a straight razor honed on it. But I've had such good results with Nortons that I stopped using my arkansas stones all together. When I picked up straight razor honing, I just went straight to my Norton stones. But I keep meaning to get some diamond paste and use it on the arkansas stone. I know of some master woodworkers who use that method to get an ultimate edge on a chisel. Has anyone compared the edge gotten on finishing a razor with diamond paste on a hard arkansas stone versus CrOx on a strop?
I haven't tried it on a stone. I've had real good results from diamond spray on felt and from diamond paste on balsa wood. Robert Williams, the razor maker, experimented with diamond spray on a Spyderco Ultra Fine and got real good results. Might do well on a black hard ark too.Quote:
Originally Posted by MinATX
If you are refering to any hard Arkansas stone for razors that even differences between various Translucents will give different results. The surface needs to be very fine for the best results on razors. Take that with a grain, but playing with slurries and CBN which is similar to diamond spray, only my densest and smoothest translucent gave me the best results. I have heard of others achieving the same with the black Arkansas stone on razors with diamond spray and CBN too.Quote:
Originally Posted by MinATX
I think the comparison to CrO would be hard to make as they are different. The comparison would be more to how it compares with other finishing stone IMHO as you are still honing and not stropping.
when using your translucent you will get the best edge the stone will offer when using it with honing oil after my norton 8k i go to my translucent i do 100 round trips on the stone check the edge depending on the grind of the razor you'll fall some where around 100-200 around trips on the stone the edge from a translucent will feel different to some people it depends on your face i have a thick beard so i like very hard coti and translucents the feeling i get when shaving from off my translucent feels like i honed the razor on a hard coti and stroped it two to three times on chromium oxide heres a pic of my translucent next to a surgical black ark
I think arkansas are great and i've used soft hard and surgical black for years and yes they're slow compared to some other stones but faster when used in progression,i finish on the black till popping hair and the edge is super smooth for me but lately i've been stropping with .1 micron iron oxide and it makes them just that bit sharper and even smoother,the only way to know if you like the finish it gives is to try it but i have found that the more you polish the edge with them the smoother they get and it's something else i've been working on as i'm finding each time i touch up a razor and get more polish it's making a difference,i'm interested to know what you think of it once you try it my experience is mainly with the three stones i have now eleblu is the man with collection and would know more about them
Thanks for replies,
the hone looks flat but what is the best way to lap an arkansas? I usualy lap my stone on 320grits norton wetpaper. I'll buy some honing oil and give it a try.
Like any other hone, I draw a pencil grid and lap in the kitchen sink under running water. I use a DMTXX 120 diamond plate or a DMTC 325 plate but 325 grit paper would work on a flat surface.
I seem to recall that time Jimmy - I think my grandad recorded it in his diary along with something about a place called "Wall Street" and a terrible crash or something... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
once a surgical black or translucent ark is lapped flat, other folks would recommend finishing them with a much higher grit paper than 120 or 325, or to break them in well with a kitchen knife. the surface of the stone will become even smoother, and will cut more finely as a result.
the same advice is given for charnley forests which, like arkansas, are also made of novaculite.
this isnt coming from experience but i believe it to be true.
+1, I spent a lot of time smoothing out one side of the one I have been using and it really makes a huge difference, comparing it to the other side it feels to the finger as smooth as glass and as opposed to a bevel with plainly visible scratch marks it leaves a sort of hazy, mirrored finish, and you can really feel the difference in the edge. I have started smoothing out the other side as well, but it's not something I would want to do all at once...these stones are hard as all get out.Quote:
Originally Posted by ezpz
This might be obvious, but it really takes a few serious honing sessions for them to reach their potential for polishing. Make sure they are cleaned well after use and before for razors.
before lapping i would take a square or some thing you know to be square and check for flatness it will save you alot of time if the stone is flat maybe a dmt too these stones are super hard but if you have to lap the stone once your finished you should finish off two to three kitchen knives to smooth out the stone
Do I always need oil when I use those hone?? can I take water or something else?
You can use water or oil on an arkansas stone, but I've always been told that once you start using oil, you can't switch back to water.
I have used water and soapy water and I prefer the soapy water between those two, it works well, just enough soap to break the surface tension of the water a bit.
A lot of patience and time person needs to have to use Arkansas stones which i don't have.Good luck guys.
you can use water but you will get the best results using oil
Why is that?
Smith's make a non oil honing solution that is water based, but I get good results with soapy water too.
oil provides less resistant agaist the hone same thing can be said about the cf hone dry, water, and oil all three will give a different looking edge under magnification ime oil always beats water in oil stonesQuote:
Originally Posted by TheZ
I grew up using 3-in-1 Household Oil on my Arkansas stones, and it has given me the best results. I tried a virgin Ark with a mild dishsoap solution, and it worked okay, but the oil is the best. One thing to keep in mind is that steel and quartz (novaculite is a close relative) are not far removed from each other in terms of hardness, and oil helps the protect the stone while also helping it cut the edge. Don't ask me how it works, because I haven't brushed up on my witchdoctory lately, but it's true.
Either way, it irritates me when people try to assign a grit number to these stones (or any natural, really). They may vary in cutting speed and scratch pattern, but novaculite stones do not behave in the same manner that your synthetic Norton or Naniwa stones do. Novaculite is a crystalline structure, whereas the synthetics are actually a hardened colloidal solution (bits of cutting material suspended in a binding material). Apples and gun powder, really. Not at all similar.
Novaculite is a sedimentary rock composed of microcrystalline quartz, it is also recognized as a re-crystallized variety of chert which is also in cf stones. It is a high-purity silica, composed of more than 99 percent pure silica. The name is applied mainly to formations in Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Texas and is derived from the Latin word novacula, meaning razor stone. i have seen grit rating for translucent stone at 1200 , 4000 , 8000 but the reality is surgical black and translucent ark or any ark aren't classified by grit they are classified by density
the way i see it the only way to compare stones properly whether they're natural or synthetic is by cutting speed and edge finish,in a lot of instances grit rating isn't relative because of different materials and manufacturers but that's only my opinion,as for oil i've never used it even my silicone carbide stones are non oil because i worked with food it made it easier to clean after sharpening with no chance of oil gunk contamination and it seems to work great for me,how much difference do you guys think oil makes and what are the benefits as i've seen a lot of stones gunked up badly by oil,also what sort of difference is there between the surgical black and translucent as aside from reading it's one of the finest sharpening stones there is i've never heard of a comparison that states the difference in edge finishes,is it like the difference between the hard and black?? how much extra polish does it give the edge?? and will it create an even finer edge without feathering??
Regarding the oil, I've seen some gunked up too. IMO that is a result of the user not cleaning the stone after use. I have only used actual honing oil, such as Smith's, on any Ark that I have honed pocket knives on. IMO the oil helps suspend the steel particles better than other vehicles to keep the stone from clogging. Wiping the oil and swarf thoroughly when the honing session is over is important to avoid the stone clogging with oil/swarf. OTOH, nothing wrong with using soap and water if you're happy with it. If it is working don't fix it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alucard73
Good question on the difference between the translucent and the black. I've seen members post that some black hard arks are equal to some translucents and visa versa but have no hands on experience with a black ark myself. I have an old Lily White Washita that is "lily white" in name only, a Pike Soft Ark, and a vintage Norton translucent. All very good for pocket knives. I use the soft ark more than the others. Will be doing a razor or two on them to see what I think in the near future. Working a lot of hours lately and time is short.
Although there may be only a slight difference in grain size from one grade to another, the effective abrasiveness of each grade is related to the density, or compactness, of the individual, bladed quartz crystals that compose Novaculite. The U.S. government measures the specific gravity of Novaculite and assigns density ranges for the Soft and Hard classifications. black & translucent are of the same density range 250+ it all depends on the stone that you have ark's being a natural stone density will range
The density specification for black and trans is a minimum. The black I just got for my birthday is 2.8 gm/cm3 and a black barber hone I got off of ebay is over 3 so all arkansas in the true hard catagory are not equal. I have been working to break in the larger black but I don't think it is there yet. Even so it gives me an extremely sharp edge and shaves very nicely.