I finally cut my hones in half! Worked out great!

So there was a thread about a year ago about cutting Norton hones in half with a hacksaw that had caught my interest as I like the idea of narrower hones, and having twice the hones to work with.

Well my grandpa happened to have bought a diamond blade tile cutter about 6 months ago because the price was the same as renting it. This is the model Mastercraft Wet Tile Saw | Canadian Tire He was lucky enough to get the saw for $50

It worked prefectly, no chips and didn't take long at all. The two hones I cut were the Norton 220/1k and 4k/8k.
I cut the 4k/8k directly down the middle, but I cut the 220/1k with a 1/4 inch offset, and I am using the 220 side of the larger half as a lapping stone, I used a hacksaw to cut grooves in it, and it works better then I expected actually, and I did lap it after cutting the grooves on 180 grit paper and then 320.
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1212/dsc03518e.jpg
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/2565/dsc03517.jpg

If you wanted a narrow hone, all you had to do was draw a line down the middle and hone on half of the hone.

Oh well, if you're happy, that's great. After all, now you have twice as many hones.

I do like your conversion of the 220 into a lapper!

Interesting. I considered the same thing for making a lighter weight hone for traveling. I'm curious to learn how your narrow width hones perform.

The reason I like narrow hones is the size and for honing warped and smiling razor. But also I just prefer the size as I have a narrow 12k chinese.

As far as usability goes there's not much difference. I do really like having the lapping stone and twice the 4k and 8k.

I have a razor that is slightly warped. It does seem to strop better on one of my more narrow setups. If that's the case, then it would seem to make sense that a narrower hone would work for the razor as well. Thanks again for the post.

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Originally Posted by diyguy

I have a razor that is slightly warped. It does seem to strop better on one of my more narrow setups. If that's the case, then it would seem to make sense that a narrower hone would work for the razor as well.

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But it doesn't make sense. The exact same stroke that you need to use to keep the blade on a narrow hone is EXACTLY the same stroke that you can use on a wide hone. If you need the visual aid, draw a line down the center of the hone and hone on your new narrow hone. I guarantee that the same stroke done on a narrow hone can be accomplished on a wide hone.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

But it doesn't make sense. The exact same stroke that you need to use to keep the blade on a narrow hone is EXACTLY the same stroke that you can use on a wide hone. If you need the visual aid, draw a line down the center of the hone and hone on your new narrow hone. I guarantee that the same stroke done on a narrow hone can be accomplished on a wide hone.

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There are many who have metioned that warped blades register better on a narrow hone. Personaly, I have enouph razors not to bother with warped blades, but some do.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

But it doesn't make sense. The exact same stroke that you need to use to keep the blade on a narrow hone is EXACTLY the same stroke that you can use on a wide hone. If you need the visual aid, draw a line down the center of the hone and hone on your new narrow hone. I guarantee that the same stroke done on a narrow hone can be accomplished on a wide hone.

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Ron you are fighting a losing battle my friend, there are just way to many people that cannot see the truth of what you are saying...I fell for the rhetoric a few years back and cut down a set... Luckily it cost me only time and about 6 hacksaw blades the hones were given as part of a deal that if I did the work he supplied the hones...
I only wasted my time to do it, I still have the set, and I haven't used them in two years at least.... As there is nothing they can do that a 8x3 sized honed can't do... BUT the belief still exists out there that thinner hones can be an advantage on Smiling, Warped, mis-honed or whatever razors...

I know, I know, and I'm the guy that bought a set of all four Norton half hones that I have not touched in a couple of years. In other words, it cost me a little more, so I'm trying to help others avoid that mistake.

I guess we should point out the the size issue cuts both ways too, you can do anything on a thinner hone that you can do on a wider hone except the rare straight down the hone stroke...

i dont have the experience to say that the difference matters but for a warped razor (not a smiling razor) narrower hones are actually different. read that twice. for a smiling razor yes, you can use the edge of a wider hone to do the exact same thing as a narrower hone, its just bigger and heavier, and maybe more expensive. if you can acquire a more narrow hone or a shorter hone for less and the money matters to you, or you just dont want a big heavy hone, go for it! i hone quite successfully on a 100mmx10mm coticule that cost me less than 20$ shipped.

So here is my thinking. Please realize I do not claim to be an expert, nor have I ever done so.

With a smiling or warped razor I tend to use the edge of the hone more since it won't sit flat on a wide hone. Right?
So yes I realize that you can simply use the edge of a wider hone for this, but I have found I need to lap more often and that edge is really the only area effected. Now I have twice the amount of edges to use for this.

I admit, this is not a revelation, not everyone should go cut their hones in half. But I didn't say that either.

I like the feel of a narrow hone and the hones I have created now are just as capable as the original wider one.

I've been saying the same thing for years, and just gave up. I couldn't convince anyone that anything you can do on a 8x1.5, you can do an 8x3, really. I was selling Coti's, I got more requests for narrow hones, than I care to remember. I couldn't understand the logic behind it. First off, How many warped, smiling blades does someone have? Certainly not enough to justify cutting my stones in half...( I have a Wet Saw too ) But....If you want to cut them, more power to you, if you think they work better, than that's all that matters...But Believe me when I tell you, anything you can do on a narrow hone, you can most definitely do on a wider one....As a matter of fact, I have several narrow hones, I still prefer the wider ones, especially when doing circle method honing...

I know it is probably mental, but i seem to have an easier time on narrow hones when dealing with smilers. Sort of like superstitions in baseball. If a batter believes taking 5 practice swings, tapping is cleats twice and spitting before his at bat helps, then it helps :)

All that matters though is what works for you. My personal preference is the narrow hones, though i do find it easer to do circles on an 8x3.

I guess what I am saying is i have Hone ADD.

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Originally Posted by chee16

So here is my thinking. Please realize I do not claim to be an expert, nor have I ever done so.

With a smiling or warped razor I tend to use the edge of the hone more since it won't sit flat on a wide hone. Right?
So yes I realize that you can simply use the edge of a wider hone for this, but I have found I need to lap more often and that edge is really the only area effected. Now I have twice the amount of edges to use for this.

I admit, this is not a revelation, not everyone should go cut their hones in half. But I didn't say that either.

I like the feel of a narrow hone and the hones I have created now are just as capable as the original wider one.

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Just to be clear, I never meant to hint that I thought you had made a mistake. I'm perfectly happy honing on a narrow hone. I'm fully aware that you knew that you did not have to cut your hones, you chose to. I just didn't want a lot of late-comers to the forum thinking they needed to pull out their saws. Remember the mess the breadknifing threads created?

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

I know it is probably mental, but i seem to have an easier time on narrow hones when dealing with smilers. Sort of like superstitions in baseball. If a batter believes taking 5 practice swings, tapping is cleats twice and spitting before his at bat helps, then it helps :)

All that matters though is what works for you. My personal preference is the narrow hones, though i do find it easer to do circles on an 8x3.

I guess what I am saying is i have Hone ADD.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Just to be clear, I never meant to hint that I thought you had made a mistake. I'm perfectly happy honing on a narrow hone. I'm fully aware that you knew that you did not have to cut your hones, you chose to. I just didn't want a lot of late-comers to the forum thinking they needed to pull out their saws. Remember the mess the breadknifing threads created?

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Put these 2 posts together and everything is clear.

The hardest thing for new guys when it comes to honing is to keep the blade flat on the stone whether doing circles or X strokes. The 3 inch wide hones make the learning process and every day honing much easier. You can do rolling X's on the 3 inch stone just as easy and probably have more edge on the cutting surface more of the time. A 45 degree angle will usually work very well on a 3 inch stone for both smiley's and wedges. Personal preference for a 1 1/2 inch or 2 inch stone is fine. Little stones and thin stones are can do stones, at best, as we have discussed many times.

Have fun,

Lynn

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Remember the mess the breadknifing threads created?

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Very good point. As I was one of the casualties of that breadknifing threads. :)

I just wanted it to be clear that it worked out really well for me, and that I saw some advantages to having more hones afterwards since I prefer narrow hones anyways. Wasn't trying to make a heated rebuttal! haha!


BTW, I just want to make it clear that this thread was in no way started to bring up any debate on "wide vs narrow hones"
It was started to show the success I had cutting my hones, and give people who were looking to cut their hones a description of my experience.

Making Lapping stone out of 220 is a very good idea. As for narrow stones I'm not on your side. I've heard that they are good with knives, but for razors wide stone is very comfortable. One of the reasons why I don't like eschers, slim piece of stone with which you balance between honing and cutting your finger.

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Originally Posted by Zelenbakh

Making Lapping stone out of 220 is a very good idea. As for narrow stones I'm not on your side. I've heard that they are good with knives, but for razors wide stone is very comfortable. One of the reasons why I don't like eschers, slim piece of stone with which you balance between honing and cutting your finger.

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Well this is great. First I argue against the narrow hone and now I have to defend it.

There is nothing wrong with a narrow hone. Realize that the Norton and other hones most of us use for razors were not, are not, designed for razors. Any razor hone (Japanese hones excepted) made or cut in the past 150 years was made 2 inches or less. Clearly there was a reason for that and the main reason was that that there was no need for it to be any wider because most of the honing takes place near the edge of the hone anyway. 3 inch wide hones are easier for beginners to learn how to balance the razor flat on the hone, but all honing techniques can be accomplished on a narrower hone. Lynn's circle strokes are the most efficient means of removing metal, but they are just a slight modification from long used diagonal chisel strokes demonstrated in the Maestro Livi videos, and they can be done on any width of stone.

Now, cutting your fingers is another issue. That is your (and on occasion, my) fault, not the hones'.

Well, historical argument is definitely convincing. But still there are personal preferences, and they are for wider stone.

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Originally Posted by Zelenbakh

Well, historical argument is definitely convincing. But still there are personal preferences, and they are for wider stone.

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If the only girl at the dance is ugly, and you wanna dance with a girl, then you are going to be dancing with an ugly girl.

Preference without a choice is not a preference, it's a lack of options.

The only modern hones available for straight razor honers are tool hones that happen to be 3 inches wide so that is what most modern straight razor honers learn to use so of course that is what they come to prefer.

I was hoping that the the OP would help answer the age old question of "does size matter?" There ain't much resolution here. I guess that's why it's an age old question.

:beer2:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

If the only girl at the dance is ugly, and you wanna dance with a girl, then you are going to be dancing with an ugly girl.

Preference without a choice is not a preference, it's a lack of options.

The only modern hones available for straight razor honers are tool hones that happen to be 3 inches wide so that is what most modern straight razor honers learn to use so of course that is what they come to prefer.

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I use natural stones, mostly Jnats, they are rather wide. The only thin one is escher and one coticule could be wider.

If one has to dance with an ugly girl, presumably a thin/narrow one would be chosen all things being equal. :-)

In all seriousness, thanks for all the great feedback on this thread. I enjoy SR shaving for many reasons, but one of the key reasons is that it’s 10,000% more fun and interesting than shaving with pressurized goo and a plastic disposable. A big part of the fun – at least for me – is being able to experiment with all sorts of different techniques and products. As an example, I’ve made a number of strops – some paddles, some hanging, some as narrow as 1 inch, some actually wider than 3 inches, some short, some long, some with balsa, some with chromium oxide, some with graphite, etc., etc., etc. Which one (or ones) work best? It’s entirely inconclusive (and will probably remain inconclusive), but I’m having a blast trying them all out. As this relates to hones, a narrow hone may or may not be best, but trying one out could be a lot of fun. I suspect, perhaps, that the “fun factor” played at least a small role in the OP’s decision to half his hones.

Again, thanks for the post and all the quality feedback.

So honed 2 razors last night. The hones worked great, but they worked great before. The size was exactly as I suspected and exactly what I wanted.

Oh and as far as the finger cutting goes, I definitely experienced that with my 12k Chinese, but these hones are a lot thicker and it didn't seem to be an issue. I don't have big hands though, so it might be different for others.

Thanks for all the posting everyone, it has kept things interesting!

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Originally Posted by Utopian

(…)
I do like your conversion of the 220 into a lapper!

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Isn´t that a bit… dangerous? I mean, if the lapper isn´t even (or doesn´t stay even, and since it´s a hone as well, it is likely) the lapped hone won´t, as well. Plus, if the lapper is as big as the lapped hone, you will automatically use the middle part more than the sides… does this make sence to anybody else but me? kinda hard to explain… (Disclaimer: This is all theoretical and maybe I´m totally wrong and it works great in real life.)


Regards,
tok

You are right. The 220 or the dedicated Norton lapping hone will work just fine as long as they are regularly lapped themselves. Given how soft the 220 is, I suspect it will need it more often.

The one I made into a lapper is a 1/4 inch wider then the other hones, and is also a dedicated lapper. The other side of it is 1000grit and still flat so is usable as a bevel setter still.

*EDIT* I reread again :) I will definitely have to lap the lapping stone on a fairly regular basis. But you have to do that with any Norton lapping hone, and so far it doesn't seem to need it.

I was just wondering, whether it is such a good idea to use a soft hone, which is nearly the same size as the other hones as a lapping stone. Utopian answered it. But then again, if you have to lap the lapping stone, why don´t you use the stuff you use to lap it on your other hones? Anyway, as a (mostly) coticule user, lapping is something, I don´t do very often. And when i do it, I use silicone carbide on a marble plate and wet/dry paper.

Regards,
tok

I agree after reading all this post just now. I figured out how to hone a warped blade on a 3 inch hone. I had 3 blades that I could never get till now. Observing Utopian and Randydance at the WI meet somehow made it click. I almost got the tile saw out as well before the meet. just thought I would chime in.

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Originally Posted by tok

But then again, if you have to lap the lapping stone, why don´t you use the stuff you use to lap it on your other hones?

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Because it fits my situation to put it plainly. I prefer narrow hones. I had a 220/1k Norton as my bevel setter and I don't use the 220 side. So, why not use the220 side as a lapping stone, and I can still use the 1000 on the other side.

Also, I have honed 3 razor since cutting my hones (and am completely satisfied :) ) so I lightly lapped the hones before each razor and I prefer the stones lapped on the stone rather then paper. Also at $1 a sheet, lapping with paper can get expensive in the long run.

So, again, it was more about finding the perfect fix for my situation then me trying to tell anyone to do what I have done (not that you were implying that, but at tha start of the thread it seemed like I might have given that impression unintentionally).

Thanks!

[QUOTE=chee16;783403]So, again, it was more about finding the perfect fix for my situation then me trying to tell anyone to do what I have done (not that you were implying that, but at tha start of the thread it seemed like I might have given that impression unintentionally).QUOTE]

I don't think you did that at all, nor did I intend to give the impression that I thought you had done anything wrong. I just didn't want anyone pulling out their saws before understanding what they were doing.

I completely understand about the 220 vs. sandpaper for lapping. The 220 is more convenient to just grab and lap (though it and your other hones should be soaked first) rather than messing around with sandpaper. Sandpaper is also easy to use, but you had a hone you weren't using and you re-purposed it. You sir, are an environmental hero!

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Originally Posted by Utopian

..... you re-purposed it. You sir, are an environmental hero!

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You have no idea. It ALWAYS drives em crazy if I have something and am not using it. Repurposing is a passion of mine :P