What impress more? Stones or price?
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What impress more? Stones or price?
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Big rocks like that tend to be very expensive, but the fact that there is a plane on it means it is not for razors.
Stefan, I fail to follow your logic...Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
+1.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR
I know from So that the same nakayamas we use for razors are also used for planes.
And often times, A plane is also used to show how quickly it abrades and how the slurry is formed.
A stone that is good for planes is not hard enough for razors.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR
So also sais Iwasaki uses Atoma to lap his stones but that is not ture as witnessed by people that visited and asked what stones does he uses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
There is not much information. Just photos from exhibition.Quote:
Originally Posted by eTom
It is more correct to say that the very hardest stones, which are still good for razors, are not good for planes because of the "Ji wo Hiku" phenomenon. However, there are plenty of stones that are hard enough for razors that don't cause "Ji wo Hiku", so there are plenty of stones that are good for planes that are also good for razors. In addition, simply seeing the plane on the stone doesn't really tell us anything about that stone.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
Frankly speaking I thought, that everyone will be impressed by the price of the stone, 4 200 000 yen is a little more than 50 000 US$ (almost 52 000 $).
The price is what made me choke as well...
Well, I'm certainly impressed.
I'm also impressed that the blade seems to be stuck to the hone!
Thanks for posting it!
I have been trough almost 40 Jnats and have seen only two softer stones that are good for razor finishing. Indeed there are exceptions but they are not very common. As far as the stone on the pic, sure we don't know about the quality but why would they use aplane there if not to show how it works with one? I mean they have a price tag so it means itis for sale. They surely can show the swarf from a knife or a kamisori if it was suitable for those, just MHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR
Apart from that I love the big rock, I have one that is not as big big but a great stones none the less.
Yes it is impressive, some stones are very pricey if they are very uniform and obviously perform well. In Japan wood workers lighter colored but harder stones are very sought after by the woodworkers and some pieces can reach some pretty high prices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zelenbakh
Jim recenly posted(on his blog I think) about a stone, that the current owner of nakayama stones stock has, it was much smaller than the one you show us and was in the 30000-40000 USD range.
I am sure i cannot buy the Darn stone for that price but i will definitely find that blade and buy it.
I'm impressed all right. And scared :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Zelenbakh
By my mind. It seems like a joke.
hopefully someone who can read the sign will chime in and tell us what it says.
What's Ji wo Hiku?Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR
Hoo, a lot going on in this thread.
1. Prices.
When I was at Hatenaka Toishi, he told a story about a carpenter who came in and, wanting to impress his companions, demanded the best stone in the place. Hatenaka-san said "Well, what exactly do you want it for? What is best for you?" And the carpenter answered "It doesn't really matter, just give me your most expensive stone!" So Hatenaka-san brought out a large piece of polished Genseki (Uncut ore from which individual stones are cut and prepared, sometimes polished for use as very large stones) and asked for 30,000,000 JPY. That's about 360,000 USD.
I'm no longer that taken aback at outlandish stone prices.
2. "Ji wo Hiku"
This means that at times, extremely hard stones can suddenly "grab" the soft iron part of a plane blade and cause scratching/chipping, either because a brittle piece of the stone got pulled out or the stone is harder than the wrought-iron and a piece of it breaks off. This is one reason why very hard stones are often not preferred for plane blades, because the pressure and the hardness don't get along well. This is actually pretty rare, I take it, and mostly limited to stones like Nakayama and Oozuku Karasu, which have a tendency to be extremely hard--to the point that they were/are considered useless by most honers outside of razor honers.
3. The sign says "Large Hone (Paulownia Box Included). (something something) mine. Completely free from irregularities and impurities, very rare, unique item."
4. Plane blades versus razors.
It would make absolutely no sense to market a stone like this by using a razor or knife on it, it's simply too big. In addition, the razor hone market in Japan is microscopic--probably in the low triple digits--so if they put a razor on it, it would be meaningless. So by using a plane, they are marketing to people who actually buy lots of stones--carpenters. The natural hone market in Japan is for all intents and purposes exclusively carpenters. Most knife honers don't move on to the Awaseto level, they stop at a good Nakato, like an Aoto. So putting a plane blade on it is the only thing that makes sense.
As far as "softer" hones not being good for finishing razors, since there is no real definition of "softer", and the relative hardness of these stones runs on a continuum rather than being a series of jumps, it's really hard to say what works and what doesn't except on an individual basis. But for that same reason, saying "a hone that is good for planes is not good for razors, and vice versa" is simply .
5. Sticking a plane to a hone is a common way of showing off one's plane honing skills--it's supposed to show that you've made a perfectly flat bevel. It's not really got much to do with the hone.
lucky... in the old days we didn't get a box for that kind of money...:rofl2:Quote:
3. The sign says "Large Hone (Paulownia Box Included). (something something) mine. Completely free from irregularities and impurities, very rare, unique item."
very impressed with the stone, would be even more impressed with the person that could walk into that market and drop over 4mil yen on a rock...
Jim
Excellent synopsis. The stone shown at this price looks like a shiro suita Nakayama with the hazy cloud like patterns and very fine tight inclusions. These Grade 24 size stones are rare themselves and the earlier mined stones possessed high cutting strength. The deep shiro suita stratra has super hard crystalized grit and are very difficult to use for the average shapener as they are scratchy. The grade 24 stones are reserved for professional sharpeners, mostly unique crafts people like tea house builders and collectors. The sides are coated in authentic urushi. Sticking a blade requires a perfectly flat bevel as well as the stone and a fairly gummy slurry. Super thin translucent shavings with a japanese plane require a perfectly flat bevel that is as sharp as a razor. I am convinced that you could hone a razor on this stone. There are craftspeople in Japan who will own these type stones, sometimes they are given to them as honorarium or bought as an expected lifetime tool expenditure (in this case most likely at a discounted rate if the carpenter is famous). Large generous gifts move through japanese society. alx
