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Have any of you ever lapped the shapton 1000/6000/16000 glass stones with sandpaper? If so, what grit is recommended?
And even if not, I'd be interested in knowing if you advise for or against it. (As opposed to using Shapton Glass Diamond Lapping Plate, which is pretty spendy)? Or is there an alternative GDLP that I could use?
Thanks
I use the Atoma plates, 400 grit for flattening 1200 grit for smoothing. Another alternative most use is the DMT C plate (325 grit).
Because of the Atoma's pimpled surface, stiction is not much of an issue compared to the DMT's .
I've used 1500 grit sandpaper on both the 16K and 30K Shaptons, and it seems to have worked fine.
In the long run, you'll spend far more on sandpaper than you would on a DMT (they last years!) or even Atomas after a while. Then you have to worry about holding it to a flat surface, squeezing air bubbles out, etc. whereas the DMT already is flat. You also don't have to worry about grit particles coming loose & lodging in your stones.
I was using sandpaper in the beginning too, but the diamond plate is really worth its price. If you already have the shaptons, than spend that extra little money on a DMT8C to get the best out of them. It is much more convenient to lap anything with a diamond plate than sandpaper.
The only problem with sandpaper is when people use to much pressure while lapping. Then some of the abrasive grains might become embedded in the hone.
The other factor new guys need to ask themselves is just how often are you going to perform lapping? If it is only seldom then the DMT would be overkill. BTW.... not all DMT plates are flat but the factory has replaced defective ones in the past.
I believe this is what happened to me. My Shapton 16k (as well as my Shapton Pro 12k) left some really nasty scratches. I believe this was due to the lapping with Sandpaper.Quote:
The only problem with sandpaper is when people use to much pressure while lapping. Then some of the abrasive grains might become embedded in the hone.
It stopped as soon as I started lapping with the DMT 325. I would reinvest in it any time again!
But a lot of guys seem to be fine with sandpaper and their shaptons, so give it a try butif you can afford it, get the DMT 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesslemming
Hi,
I'm very curious as to this phenomenon and would like to know any/all details as to how it might have happened if you don't mind telling me.
Specifically, how much pressure, what was the paper (brand/quality), how was the paper held down, wet/dry/other, how much contamination do you think occurred (few bits, scattered, everywhere and lots of it), etc, etc.
Just something to file away for those times when someone asks about flattening/lapping/conditioning with sandpaper.
Thanks, I hope!
Stu.
I'd also recommend just buying a DMT. Easier, cheaper in the long run, and its useful on its own for razor repair and tools. I've even used it to sand and file different things.
I have the DMT 325 and still prefer sandpaper for all my hones. I have a pane of glass on a counter top for flatness, and just wet it, lay the sandpaper on it, wet that and off I go. I have never seen a particle of sand
get imbedded in the stones, and with the 16K and 30K stones that kind of thing would be pretty obvious. I use the DMT to do my fingernails and toenails.
I have a similar question as the original poster. My situation is a little different because I'm in Taiwan and don't have access to the same brands as most in the US and in Europe. I'm thinking of getting a touch-up stone, something like a Naniwa 12K Super Stone or a Chinese 12K. Unfortunately, I don't think it's going to be easy for me to find that Naniwa here, and I'm not confident in choosing a Chinese 12K without some assistance (assuming I can even find one of those). International shipping is a deal-killer for these things for me.
However, I know where I can get a Shapton 16K Glass Stone locally. The problem is the expensive lapping plate is a deal-killer in itself. I'd like to know if anyone has anything to add to the sandpaper discussion above, whether it be regarding grit, brand, or technique.
(My usage will be ridiculously light. I have one of the new Boker Edelweiss 5/8, and I'll probably get a Tree Brand when it goes on sale. So it'll most likely be two, full-hollow razors. That's it. That's all. I realize that's not a lot of use, but the Shapton still seems like the best option in my situation.)
You might want to contact Tom Blodgett from Jendeindustries.
If I recall correctly he has an office in Taiwan and is a vendor of all things sharpening, as well as a honemeister. Just write him a PM, heīs a member here.
The sandpaper I use is industrial grade Matador brand wet/dry sandpaper. I have a couple of sheets left over from the time when I was working for a German automotive manufacturer.
I donīt think he would use inferior grade sandpaper. For the Shaptons I have used the following progression:
320, 400, 800, 1.500
with normal or light pressure. I have never lapped a Shapton with sandpaper again and it didnīt reoccour. Of course thatīs no proof that the sandpaper is to blame, though
Atoma 400 or DMT 325 grit on a duosharp (which are usually pretty flat).
I use those for pretty much every stone I have, which goes from shapton 1000-15000, choseras, j- and chi- naturals, oilstones (the one for oilstones is kept separate), muddy old style clay stones (like the kitayama).
Coarse stones might require a coarser diamond hone to grade them well, but there shouldn't be much use of those on razors, I'd think.
Most of my stones see much more use for woodworking tools, and I dress/flatten them every time i'm in the shop, and before the razors each time.
Many years ago, I used wet and dry sandpaper for kings, which was OK, I guess, but it got to be too much of a hassle. If I were only honing razors, and not that often, I could still tolerate it. On the other side of the coin, I couldn't begin to justify the DLRP, and though I've spent more on (natural) stones than the DLRP costs, I'm still puzzled by it when some of the cheaper diamond hones (a W8 DMT duosharp is often $60 or less delivered if you have some patience to find one). The DGLP is also a no, I don't need the loose grit to chase around waiting to put a groove in a plane iron on a razor, especially not when it costs more than a diamond hone that is flat with diamonds already in it (semi) permanently. That makes the atoma and DMTs a happy medium where the results aren't really mediocre like a lot of happy medium recommendations.
By now you may have already lapped your stones. From that point you can maintain flatness by lapping your 1k with your 6k and your 6k with your 16k. I do this much more often than laping on diamond plates and it maintains stones perfectly for a very long time. If you hone much, just check from time to time that all is flat and turn stones 180 deg now and then while conditioning stones this way.
Do under running water.
Shapton also recommends this as well. Clean off finer stones thouroughly to prevent grit contamination. My stones get used and abused by lots of steel besides razors and this system saves time and keeps them optimum for very long periods before having to put them on a diamond plate.
Kingfish - how does the 1000 come out of the shuffle in that progression? of my shapton pros, the 1000 is the one that most closely resembles a "normal" stone in feel, and is also the one that gets the most wear. I don't use the 5000 a lot unless I'm sharpening something with a flat bevel, but instead go straight to the 15k (this is obviously not what I do with razors, but with tools).
The 5k comes into the mix a lot with japanese tools, because there is no hollow grind or mickey mousing with those to be able to skip right to the finest stone and only work a small bevel.
I use a 325 DMT for lapping everything and it works just fine. There's no need to make things complicated IMHO.
The 1k is going to be lapped with a DMT or Sandpaper. Flat has to start somewhere. As Stu sais you can use the DMT for everything, but I keep up with all my stones regularly before they get dished and rubbing them together keeps them tip top all the time and it is just seconds in my sharpening sessions during progression.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
Edit, if you are working much with sharpening other stuff including razors, wait until you try the 1.5k and the 2k Shapton..Unbelievable difference in feel and they are quicker than you would think. Rare for me to use the 1k anymore for anything. If I need to move that much metal I will use DMTs, but I like to stay pretty sharp while working unless chipped edge.
A little confusion ...being new here, had to see who Stu was, so there's Stu and Schtoo.
I know Schtoo reasonably well (who is also named Stu) - had no clue he was on here, but it appears he has flown the coop after being on here for a few weeks back in May.
You will always be able to tell the difference cause Stu's (aka Subear) spelling words like "favourite" and "aluminium" :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW