I'm Probably a Bit Confused (did I do the right thing)

I've been reading and 'listening' quite a bit about honing. I'm gathering the basic requirements to keeping a razor sharp is a 'barber's hone', but I can't seem to find out what that actually IS. I've also read that Norton 4k/8k are pretty basic. I've read than some (but not many) can shave off a 8k. I have no interest in HHTs, I intend to test the edge by shaving. I have a razor that I've shaved with and stropped for the last two months; but it's telling me it needs a touch up. I want to really only start with touch ups if possible, and move to full blown honing if and when needed. I MAY think of pastes for my Dovo strop (which has a canvas side). I've just bought a Norton 4k/8k combo AND a Shapton 16k ceramic on tempered glass. I intend to touch up with the 16k, and then use the 4k/8k and 16k when needed (and when I learn more). I considered just the Norton and Chromium Oxide paste to put on my Dovo strop, but I do use the canvas ('raw') each morning (30 laps) followed by the leather (70 laps) and didn't want to relegate the canvas to just the CRO. Do you think this is a reasonable plan? Of course I'm watching videos and reading a lot; and of course I'll take it REALLY slowly....

Not exactly sure of what your plan is in reading that Carl. I can tell you that you can shave off 8000 and a decent stropping, but a smoother shave is had from a better finishing hone first (my experience only goes to C12k/PHIG's).

I don't like pastes myself but that opinon has no basis in experience.

I would also suggest you should have no need of pastes with the hones you mentioned you're acquiring. Others opinions may vary, but in reality I would think, if you can't get a razor to shave comfortably with those hones, then pastes sure as hell won't help.

Honing isn't as scary as it's made out to be...really! Sure there are razors out there that will test the most experienced of razor guru, but if you've done the research, and it sounds like you have, you're already going to be well equiped to start any problem solving process' that may be required for your own personal situation and razors.

Anyway, hope that is some help and comfort to you mate. If I can hone my own, anyone can.


Mick

I'm not EXACTLY sure what my plan is either Mick! I read tonight that some can shave off an 8k (if they're good at honing) but maybe one needs to be pretty good at honing to do so? I was thinking with the 16k pastes won't be needed (and you seem to confirm that). I'm a bit worried about the 'bevel' thing. I've read about using a texta to mark the edge but I'm not exactly sure how the whole thing works, really. My plan really is to touch up with the 16k, and to use very few passes on it initially, just to see what difference it makes. I'll borrow the USB microscope of my grandson to see what I can see. I understand that you can't just touch up a blade for ever, at some stage you need to do a 'proper' hone, hence the 4k/8k followed by the 16k. I realise this probably makes little sense. Sometimes too much information is a problem. I really want to go to like a honing 'class' or something, but I think I'm dreaming about THAT possibility! Thanks for the reply. I'll document what I do and 'report back'! :-)

Alright, I think I see where you're coming from. Keeping in mind that I keep things as simple as possible as a personal preference, simply because I can't imagine many an old time barber using a microscope to check his edges. Now I'm no master honer but I have managed to shave off 6000, not my best days shave all the same, and not something I would care to repeat now that I know better.

Bevel setting is something you shouldn't be worried about at this stage, as you are already using a sharp razor that will only need to be freshened up. Bevel setting will, or should, only come into play if you have the misfortune of damaging the edge or are restoring a razor.

Texta pen is great stuff. I use it to see just what is going on during the honing process. It will tell you which part/s of the blade are making contact and which part/s aren't. I don't think there is a single razor out there, that has a perfectly straight edge. Once you know where the trouble spots lie, you can then modify your honing stroke to include those areas.

There is no better honing class than what you will find here mate, but I know what you mean. You want that human being standing beside you to tell you if you've got it right or not. Have faith in yourself.


Mick

you should be fine with 16k GS after 8k Norton, and for touch ups.
You will have to learn how to get best result out of the two stones, but that is where the fun is.

When you are a beginner at honing, and you have the higher grit hones at your disposal, the point of shaving off of the 8k is to insure that you are getting the razor sharp at that level before you proceed to the higher grit. At least that is the way I was taught. When you can get a smooth and comfortable shave at the 8k level you know that you're honing well. For some members here the 8k is as far as they like to go. A piece of leather or felt glued to a relatively flat base, wood, plexiglass, or whatever, and impregnated with chrom-ox is a wonderful tool to smooth out a harsh edge or enhance a sharp one even more. Here is a bit more info on how to get that done. Definitely leave your daily strop paste free and use a dedicated piece for paste or spray.

You can shave easily off the 8K but it does take practice to learn the stone and read it's signals. When you use the 8K side of the Norton no black swarf should show on that side at all. If you see any of this then the 4K side wasn't done yet and you need to go back. Also the stone needs to be lapped for a while to get the full potential. After you use the 8K (maybe 25 passes TOPS on that side or you can wire the edge that's if you did the 4K right), you can use diamond sprays if you want. That is a cheap alternative to buying Shapton 16Ks and other higher end stones. I actually heard from Jimmyhad on the phone once that some of the best edges he's ever experienced were from someone using the Norton and then progressing on diamond strops in increasing grits.

Ok, I'm a user of the GS 16K for my touch-ups. I've put all of my barber hones away simply because I like the Shapton better. Lap the stone to ensure it's nice and flat. If you are using the sandpaper method, use some higher grit paper like 1K to double check your good and flat. Once you get it right, you don't have to lap the GS stones much at all.

What I do to touch up a razor is in the shape you are mentioning is wet the stone and hold it in my left hand (I am right handed) which is flat, don't curl your fingers. Make 10 "x" strokes using enough pressure to keep the razor flat on the stone, make the last three quit light...but still with enough pressure to keep the blade flat on the stone. Never use enough pressure to flex the blade any. Strop a minimum of 50-60x and shave with it. If it's not right, repeat. You should notice an immediate improvement. If you don't get it after the third or fourth time and/or you haven't noticed any improvement and it's still pulling, you will more than likely need to take it to your Norton 4/8K. If you take it to the 4/8K, may I recommend honing with a layer of tape on the spine while you are learning. All the best, Scott

my set up is the same norton 4/8k and a shapton gs16k (or basically any other finisher).
my razor starts to drop off and I do a SMALL pirimid on the norton 3/3, 1/3, 1/5 then strop and a quick shave test. when I've got the edge were I like it I give it 6-12 VERY light X's on the shapton and have a great shave YMMV

G'day Don. Long time no see.


Mick

Thanks for all the replies! Really, really helpful, thanks, I'm starting to think I'm learning a bit. Just a couple of more questions:

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Originally Posted by MickR

...I keep things as simple as possible as a personal preference, simply because I can't imagine many an old time barber using a microscope to check his edges...

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I understand that you mean, Mick, just curious, really, to see what the edge looks like...

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Originally Posted by MickR

...Bevel setting is something you shouldn't be worried about at this stage, as you are already using a sharp razor that will only need to be freshened up. Bevel setting will, or should, only come into play if you have the misfortune of damaging the edge or are restoring a razor...

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That's good, though the edge has the SMALLEST amount of damage when I closed the blade a little carelessly and it came in contact with the scales.

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Originally Posted by MickR

...Texta pen is great stuff. I use it to see just what is going on during the honing process. It will tell you which part/s of the blade are making contact and which part/s aren't...

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Do you mark both SIDES of the blade or the EDGE?

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Originally Posted by MickR

...There is no better honing class than what you will find here mate, but I know what you mean. You want that human being standing beside you to tell you if you've got it right or not. Have faith in yourself...

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Yeah, I agree, It'd be great if someone could watch me and tell me what I'm doing wrong (or right).

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Originally Posted by mainaman

...you should be fine with 16k GS after 8k Norton, and for touch ups. You will have to learn how to get best result out of the two stones, but that is where the fun is...

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Silly question, does GS stand for "Glass Shapton"? I'm not adverse to buying a stone in the middle (12k?) if needed, but I'd rather not; these two cost me 230 incl postage as it is.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

...When you are a beginner at honing, and you have the higher grit hones at your disposal, the point of shaving off of the 8k is to insure that you are getting the razor sharp at that level before you proceed to the higher grit...When you can get a smooth and comfortable shave at the 8k level you know that you're honing well...

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Another silly question (sorry) if you can get a smooth and comfortable shave off an 8k, why would you NEED to go further? To get an even BETTER shave? Sorry for the question, I DO know I tend to overthink things and 'dive to the detail', but that's where the devil is, I believe :-)

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Originally Posted by Disburden

...you can use diamond sprays if you want. That is a cheap alternative to buying Shapton 16Ks and other higher end stones...

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I'm glad I was on the right track with that. I judged that by the time I got a new strop (for use with the paste or spray, and also considering the 'mess') I thought I might as well just get the high grit stone...

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

...Ok, I'm a user of the GS 16K for my touch-ups. I've put all of my barber hones away...

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Please PLEASE tell me! What IS a barber's hone! I can't seem to find out what it IS!

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Originally Posted by KalgoorlieBoi

...my set up is the same norton 4/8k and a shapton gs16k (or basically any other finisher). My razor starts to drop off and I do a SMALL pirimid on the norton 3/3, 1/3, 1/5...

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OK, you've just lost me there...(though I'm happy my setup is the same as yours :-) Do you mean 3 on the 8k 1 on the 16k, followed by 1 on the 8k, 3 on the 16k, etc?

Sorry for the long reply and all the quotes, but I found the replies REALLY useful and they deserved a well considered response!

You have a good arsenal of stones there. Just take your time & learn the skills.
Don't discount the use of pastes tho for a final touch.
If I may quote the Lynmeister "I have never seen an edge that can't be improved with the correct use of pastes"

Also the use of a loupe or microscope can be very handy especially when/if you can't work out why the shave test keeps failing.

If your razor has damage from improper closing you may need to go back to your 4k ~ again a loupe will help you identify the area & results of honing.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

...If I may quote the Lynmeister "I have never seen an edge that can't be improved with the correct use of pastes"...

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Hmmmm, tantalising, can't go past a quote from the Lynmeister, can I? :-)

You can but one day you'll wonder why you did.. I speak from experience :D

G'day Carl, just to try and clear up those grey areas I seem to have caused...Just because I like to keep things simple doesn't make it the best approach for you. I'm sure many an old timey barber would have loved to play with a microscope to check his edges and maybe some did. I wouldn't have a clue.

I managed to put a small ding in the edge of my first razor many years ago and it was part of the cause of my wild and reckless vendetta into honing. I really am surprised that this razor survived my barbaric (mis)treatment. Once I got some worthy hones though it all came together and I managed to hone that minor spot of edge damage out. My first decent honing attempt that also took me a couple of hours as I wanted to use as fine a grit as possible (Only to find out later that the hone I was using was mismarked anyway and I had in reality been using the coarser of the two sides...Probably a good thing, I might have still been there to this day otherwise).

Use the Nikko/Texta pen on the edge of the blade. I use it on the edge the same way I would touch with bare fingers, gently, carefully, and moving away from the edge i.e from top of bevel to razors edge. Both sides of the edge marked and then do a few passes to see what you have removed and what you haven't. Then work out the best stroke to remove what you haven't. Repeat Nikko treatment and try with stroke option that worked to remove final markings, check after a few passes to ensure all pen marks are removed, and continue till honed or if some texta marks remain once again, re-apply texta edge and try a modified or combination stroke to cover the entire edge. The wiki has a few variations of honing stroke to try.

The Pyramid technique referred to by Kalgoorlieboi (Don) is 3 on 4k, 3 on 8k, 1 on 4k, 3 on 8k, 1 on 4k, 5 on 8k. One pass covers both sides of the edge once. The Pyramid technique will prevent wire edges and is a good habit to form in honing technique. What Don has described is an abbreviated version of the full technique that he uses for his personal touch up work and not a full honing. It's all in the wiki.

Hope that has cleared up some of the issues you listed mate.


Mick

All the advice is appreciated. Just reading all the posted ?'s and A's, I've broadened my knowledge of honing-to-come. Two ?'s of my own, though: Is it a good idea to buy used honing blocks either from our classified ads or elsewhere? How many times can a 6/8, half hollow edge be honed? Just wondering. Thanks -Dan

You will do fine with the Norton and Shapton I'm sure, no need to overthink this! :)
What I found extremely helpful when I started honing, was watching Glens honing videos, I watched them all and picked up a lot of great tips for getting started. Start here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2E9sovmb0Y
:)

I believe this is a barbers hone
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Thanks very much again everyone, you guys are always really helpful. Thanks for the advice on the Texta, Mick, and the video, Blix (I'll watch that now). That hone looks a bit rough for me, thebigG!

Also watched trhe video just now on honing on a Norton4/8. I've realised I need a cleaning stone to make the slurry too; look like I can get one for 12 bucks at Carba-taec :-)

Oh, the other think I clearly need to do is learn to say "at this point in time" a lot :-)

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Oh, the other think I clearly need to do is learn to say "at this point in time" a lot :-)

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Don't worry . That will come after several thousand razors .
They say its not rocket science but you have to understand Einstein's theory about time being relative.. :D

Yes that one is a bit rough but it is just an example, i have just bought one in from the states in top nick havent got it yet but when i do i will let you know the results

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Don't worry . That will come after several thousand razors .
They say its not rocket science but you have to understand Einstein's theory about time being relative.. :D

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Yes, I guess when you're fully immersed in honing, time is very reletive, just like childhood days when one summer day lasts all summer long...