Pastes VS High Grit Hones

Hi There,

I recently honed my first razor (factory Dovo).

I used a Norton 4000/8000 grit stone - And have it at a stage where I can comfortably shave. It does tug a little when going ATG around the chin area - but that's more likely to be my shaving technique than the blade itself.

This brings me to my question.

From what I've read, the popular opinion is that the next stone should be a Naniwa 12k. But what follows after that? There's the option of pastes on balsa wood, felt, leather, etc. And then there's higher grit stones (such as the Shapton 16k).

I'm looking at making a purchase from the US - and figure I might as well buy what I need so as to save on multiple shipping fees.

So - should I get a Naniwa 12k? A Shapton 16k? Diamond sprays? CrO paste? The way I see it - if the pastes are going to achieve the same as a Shapton 16k - I'd rather go for a stone. By the time one purchases the diamond sprays at over $20 each, plus a strop for each, the hone becomes more affordable.

Thanks in Advance!

Aaron.

These are all common questions, but for every 10 responses you get, you'll probably get at least 12 opinions and none of them are likely to be wrong. A huge amount of this comes down to preference.

One piece of advice I got from Glen when I was buying hones at first, which has worked out well for me, is to buy all one type of hone, or a single 'system' at first.

For me, I bought a 1k, 4k, 8k and 16k shapton.

Since you already have the nortons, I know the naniwa 12k is a popular follow up to those.


As far as going beyond the 12-16k range, IME, just use pastes. The added gain from something like a 30k hone is very small, and the cost is exorbitant.

I've only use CrO paste, and I've been very happy with it. There's guys around here who have tried every paste under the sun with varying effects, and I'm sure they'll be chiming in soon.

Hey Aaron. You won't need a 12 & a 16k for a progression. They are pretty much interchangeable. Just pick one & follow with pastes of choice. Correctly used the diamond sprays will improve most finishing stones so they are my choice.

I have shaved directly off Naniwa 12k and Shapton 16k, and there's not much of a difference, you could pick either really. Both can feel a little harsh, so that's where a CroCx pasted strop does wonders for smoothening things out.

Thanks to everyone :)

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Hey Aaron. You won't need a 12 & a 16k for a progression. They are pretty much interchangeable. Just pick one & follow with pastes of choice. Correctly used the diamond sprays will improve most finishing stones so they are my choice.

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Oz - specifically, what grade sprays do you use? Do I need separate strops for each? Or would a paddle be better?

There's such a large range of stuff out there... I'd like to get what I 'need' to e able to produce the best possible blade at home.

Cheers,

Aaron.

If it was me i would get the 12k stone or the 16k and most likely both,i've recently done a fair bit of experimenting with pastes and while handy for a quick touch up they wont replace a higher grit stone,i also played with 1,0.5,0,25 and 0.1 micron pastes before and after my black arkansas, they made the blade extremely sharp with the 0.25 and 0.1 making the edge unbelievable but the edges never lasted very long compared to just finishing on the stone,a bit more patience with the stone and i can get very close to the same degree of sharpness with a much more durable edge so yeah i've given up on pastes

Just to throw another opinion into the mix, I'd go for a natural finisher like a coticule or thuringian.

I personally prefer natural stones as finishers over synthetics or pastes. I think they leave a much smoother edge.

Coticules or thuringians can be had relatively cheaply (c.£50) and leave a really good edge, especially the thuringians.

I have bought (but not yet used) a Norton 4/8 and a 16k Shapton. My logic was purely doubling (i.e. 4 doubled is 8, 8 doubled is 16). I also considered pastes, and went with the Shapton for the same reason you mention; cost of strops and paste; and also 'mess and bother'...

Somethings I have learned over the last few years.

Why is a Norton 4/8 the most recommended hone??? for beginners

1. So many people have used it and can help you.
2. Once you learn it it gives great shaves by itself.
3.Because after the 8k Norton you can litterally go any direction you want to go :)

If you can get the razor to shave ready on the Norton 8k, anything else becomes just a finisher...which one to pick (if any) is just each person's opinion, they will all work :)

So pick any finisher you want from Pastes to Hones and have fun with them..

Try getting some diamond sprays from straight razor designs to use after the norton, you may be surprised. You can get amazing shaves from the norton and a strop with different diamond sprays on it, you may not even need another stone....but you'll always want one LOL.

a 12k, followed by some .50 diamond spray should really be enough. You get quite spoiled using the diamond spray. The keeness of the blade is really hard to beat.

.5 micron spray on a separate strop, followed by plain leather, followed by an amazing shave!

Pastes are definitely cheaper than a good high grit stone, that's for sure. And, by all accounts they do as good a job too. Me, I invested in a few J-nat high grit stones (among others), so I use them over pastes. In the end it boils down to whatever works for you, really.

James.

I'd recommend the 12k stone, since it will polish out your 8k scratch pattern faster than will a 16k stone. The Naniwas have a reputation for being very fast, and the cheaper C12ks have one for being very slow. Also, the C12ks and modern (i.e., affordable) Thuringians are not that consistent in their grits. As an artificial stone, the Naniwa is your best bet for actually getting what you paid for.

I have both 0.5u diamond spray and CrOx paste, each on a different felt pad. The diamond takes you very quickly to a very very keen edge, but it can be harsh to shave with. However, if you've got a really hard steel blade (like a Case), the diamond really helps. CrOx gives a smoother edge but is slower going on hard steel. I'll strop on the diamond for keen, then on the CrOx for smooth, and it works well for me.

SRD makes a modular paddle strop--that's what I've got my felt pads on. If you get one, put some linseed oil or other finish inside where the paddle is hollowed out. Mine swells a little out of flat from time to time. I take off the pads and let it sit in the sun a while--the heat drives out the moisture quite quickly.

While you're getting a package together, consider also getting a 325-grit DMT plate to lap your hones, if you don't already have one.

Good luck and happy honing!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by austy

Oz - specifically, what grade sprays do you use? Do I need separate strops for each? Or would a paddle be better?

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Atm, I'm using the SRD 0.5 micron diamond spray on felt sometimes followed by jewellers rouge on felt. My preference is for a paddle & yes you need separate medium to avoid cross contamination.

Buy the Naniwa 12K. Don't look back, reconsider, imagine something else will work better, fall in love with Eschers, Nakayamas, etc. because they are romantic, rare, exotic; mess with diamond, crox, graphite, 0.1 emerald or pixie dust on linen, pressed flax or whatever else is out there.

Buy the 12K and never, NEVER look back.

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Originally Posted by roughkype

I'd recommend the 12k stone, since it will polish out your 8k scratch pattern faster than will a 16k stone.

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You obviously don't have/or have used a Shapton GS 16K...

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Originally Posted by pcb01

Buy the Naniwa 12K. Don't look back, reconsider, imagine something else will work better, fall in love with Eschers, Nakayamas, etc. because they are romantic, rare, exotic; mess with diamond, crox, graphite, 0.1 emerald or pixie dust on linen, pressed flax or whatever else is out there.

Buy the 12K and never, NEVER look back.

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This is easy to say, I would be the happiest forum member if I could do that :D

Man, that spew could be laid to a track, beautiful, some rhythm sounds like poetry. alx

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pcb01

Buy the Naniwa 12K. Don't look back, reconsider, imagine something else will work better, fall in love with Eschers, Nakayamas, etc. because they are romantic, rare, exotic; mess with diamond, crox, graphite, 0.1 emerald or pixie dust on linen, pressed flax or whatever else is out there.

Buy the 12K and never, NEVER look back.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

You obviously don't have/or have used a Shapton GS 16K...

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No, I haven't. The 16k is faster than a 12k? Wow. Bad assumption by me, sorry all.

No need to excuse, the thing is there is no the 12k or the 16k.

Every stone from every manufacturer works different and can not be easily compared to others.
Both the Naniwa 12k and the Shapton 16k and the Shapton pro 12k/15k are similar in speed: quick.
And they are similar in finishing capabilities: absolutely sufficient.
All of them can and are supposed to be used after a good 8.000 stone.

These high grit finishers are likeable and especially combined with a fine pasted strop
hard to beat in terms of smoothness (as long as your sharpening skills are sufficient!)

In short: what he said.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by roughkype

No, I haven't. The 16k is faster than a 12k? Wow. Bad assumption by me, sorry all.

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No worries, just had to point something out. IMO, the Nani 12K and the Shapton 16K feel about the same on my face, I haven't seen scratch comparisons (or recall them anyways) in high magnification to compare the two though. As far as the speed of the two manufacturers, I feel that the Shaptons edge out he Nani's, but they are more finicky too. I have both systems & if I don't get a razor right on one of them...i just go to the other and it has worked every time. The Shapton GS's are my primary "go-to's"...

Thanks for a very informative thread Gents :) It has been very helpful.

Cheers,

Aaron.

I too have used 1/2 micron chrome oxide and 1/4 diamond sprays, on leather and felt but i prefer leather, after my naniwa 12k with very good results :)

ian

I placed an order with SRD a few hours ago :-)

- Shapton 16000 Grit
- DMT 325 Grit
- DMT 1200 Grit
- SRD Lynn Abrams Modular Paddle
--- Comes with: 1 spare smooth leather, 1 spare rough leather, 2 spare felt, 4oz 0.5 micron diamond spray
--- Extra: 4oz 0.25 micron diamond spray
- 4oz CrO spray
- Long English Bridle 3" strop
- SRD Scuttle
- Brush stand
- Proraso aftershave liquid cream

Can't wait!

Aaron.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by austy

I placed an order with SRD a few hours ago :-)

- Shapton 16000 Grit
- DMT 325 Grit
- DMT 1200 Grit
- SRD Lynn Abrams Modular Paddle
--- Comes with: 1 spare smooth leather, 1 spare rough leather, 2 spare felt, 4oz 0.5 micron diamond spray
--- Extra: 4oz 0.25 micron diamond spray
- 4oz CrO spray
- Long English Bridle 3" strop
- SRD Scuttle
- Brush stand
- Proraso aftershave liquid cream

Can't wait!

Aaron.

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That's pretty much everything but the kitchen sink! LOL! NICE!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by austy

....snip...
Oz - specifically, what grade sprays do you use? Do I need separate strops for each? Or would a paddle be better?
....snip...
Aaron.

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If someone answered this I missed it.

When pasting a strop (hanging strop or paddle strop) you can
switch to a coarser spray but not the other way around.
The abrasive in the spray embeds itself into the fabric of
the strop and is all but impossible to remove.

A paddle strop seems to be easier to learn and is easy to
store in many shared shave dens. The modular paddle strop
lets you tinker because you get more than two surfaces.
The image of a hanging strop draws most of us to a
hanging strop eventually for the coolness factor alone.

The most common situation is to have two unpasted
strop surfaces: canvas and leather. This will be used
each day prior to shaving. The canvas can be skipped
but has value in that it cleans the razor of any residual
lather and any micro corrosion that may have accumulated
over night.

Using a pasted a fine abrasive on an old strop, canvas, balsa or felt
has two useful contexts. After honing and when a razor begins
to tug (minor touch up). After honing a pasted strop (balsa, leather, canvas)
does two things. One of which is to pull straight or remove minor
burrs and then polish the bevel of the edge for smoothness. This smoothness
and polishing step is important for comfort. An edge needs to
snip whiskers but not dig into skin -- a difficult balancing act.

Of interest all strops collect minor bits of ultra fine steel that
oxidizes and over time develop the ability to polish a razor.
This is why the old well cared for well used strop seems
so much better than a fresh new one.

One of us (Glen) did an experiment with submicron pasted strops
on a single razor and found that the edge did not suffer from excessive
abrasion. What I took away from his many month experiment
was that I could run a razor over a submicron pasted strop
every Saturday to my hearts content and my razor will not suffer
from it and neither will the shave. At some point a visit
to a hone will be needed but not quickly.

So two clean strop surfaces for day in day out stropping... and
paste the others beginning with 0.25 or 0.5 micron
stuff and you will be fine. If you want more aggressive pastes
you can switch... just cannot go back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by austy

I placed an order with SRD a few hours ago :-)

- Shapton 16000 Grit
- DMT 325 Grit
- DMT 1200 Grit
- SRD Lynn Abrams Modular Paddle
--- Comes with: 1 spare smooth leather, 1 spare rough leather, 2 spare felt, 4oz 0.5 micron diamond spray
--- Extra: 4oz 0.25 micron diamond spray
- 4oz CrO spray
- Long English Bridle 3" strop
- SRD Scuttle
- Brush stand
- Proraso aftershave liquid cream

Can't wait!

Aaron.

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HOly big wow! :-) indeed. That should keep you off the streets a while.

I haven't gone any finer than the 0.5u diamond. That 0.25 should get you some insane edges. Ahahahahah. BWAhahahahaha!

How are you going to distribute your diamond and CrOx sprays on your wealth of strops?

At a hardware store, in the air vent section, you can get magnetic sheets to cut and stick over vents to totally cut the airflow. I got some of that and trimmed it to the size of two of the modular paddle strops, then glued it up inside my medicine cabinet. Great way to keep them out of the way and flat.

Enjoy all your goodies. Did you also get superfast shipping? At least as you wait your beard will grow out a little.

Many thanks or the informative posts above!

Yup- USPS priority international post. Says 1-5 days. Any chance that will actually occur?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by austy

Many thanks or the informative posts above!

Yup- USPS priority international post. Says 1-5 days. Any chance that will actually occur?

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Good chance... Weekend days mostly do not count.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

Good chance... Weekend days mostly do not count.

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Well, my little parcel has cleared customs as of thismorning at 3am, and is on board with a local delivery driver. So today's the day (I hate waiting lol). 5 days - including weekends. Very happy.

YAAAAYYY!! Xmas in August!

Tell us how much fun you've been having when you come up for air.

It's at home, and I'm at work... No fun!!!

http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/a...t/d4c7968e.jpg

It took about 30 minutes to lap the Shapton, using the 325G DMT. I finished with about a minute with the 1200G DMT. Nice n flat. 20 passes at 16K on a blade that was honed a couple weeks ago by Oz, and it's good as new, though I didn't use any diamond spray as the bottle says to let it dry on the felt overnight. Had a shower, applied ProRaso Pre-Shave Cream. Heated the scuttle. Made a lather using Truefitt & Hill Sandalwood shave cream. Applied, followed by a few minutes of slow and steady stropping on leather using the Lynn Abrams Modular Paddle.

What can I say? Brilliant.

Great fun. Did you make it in to work today, or did you call in well? "Can't come in today; gotta stay home and feel good."

Your DMTs, even the 1200 surface, will take a little use before they settle in to what they can really do. Follow the suggestion (I don't remember if its on their packaging or here in the WIKI) to rub them on some concrete a little bit to knock off the high spots. My 1200 was pretty scratchy for a while. Also resist the temptation to do much lapping with any but the 325... the finer DMTs can actually lose their diamonds if used to lap hones. Don't understand the physics of it, but I personally know it happens.

I'll be really interested to hear what you think of the diamond sprays vs. the CrOx spray.

Keep having too much fun. I've lost track of how long I've messed with all this, and the novelty's still there, fresh each time.