Beginner honing question

I debated either going to the beginners forum or here. I feel as I would get more responses in the beginners forum, but I settled on where I would get fewer, but more informed. Let me know if you should stick to the beginners forum.

I got a little over a months worth of shaving in and about ten shaves with my current razor. Its shaving alright, but I feel it could be sharper. I'm new at this so I don't know. Now the bevel is deeper on one side of the blade then the other and just on one side even though its overall thicker on that side, it is thicker in some parts and thinner in others along the edge. Thats true for both sides. I would think the bevel should be even depth across the whole blade and the same depth on both sides of the blade.

So I just bought a Norton 4/8K. I figure I'll use the 4k to even out the bevels and finish it off with the 8K.

My question is, I've seen videos where they put a piece of electrical tape on the spine and I've seen it where they don't. The theory in not putting the tape is that the angle from placing the spine and edge on a flat surface dictates the angle your bevel will be and if you don't allow your spine to wear away at the same rate as your edge, your bevel will get shorter and shorter over time. On the other hand I've heard a short bevel is what you want, but it seems to me the deeper your bevel is the sharper your blade is. How deep should your bevel, visibly be? Finally the thing that has me doubting my reasoning most is how many people I've seen put the tape on the spine.

Also, I've heard you need to get a lapping stone and I've also heard of a slurry stone. A slurry stone I guess is to build a slurry to aid in honing, but I wonder if a slurry stone can function as a lapping stone, whos intent is to even out the hones surface? I'd rather get a slurry stone since its smaller and cheaper. Also if I end up getting a 120/1K stone, could I use the 120 to lap my 4k so each could level the other, same with 1k and 8k?

Tape is optional and changes the bevel angle by something like 0.2 degrees if I remember correctly so it will not affect the end result.
4/8k Norton is a great stone and will work great for you to learn honing.
Slurry stone is optional, slurry will speed up the honing, but you can definitely go without slurry too. If you are refreshing already honed edge you definitely can do so with water only. Just do 10 light x-strokes on the 8k side and test if it does not improve do another set of 10. It could also be beneficial to strop on CrO before leather and the shave. If the razor needs more work than what the 8k can do, run it on the 4k side 20 light strokes then back to the 8k side , strop test.

Hope this helps

Stefan

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Originally Posted by Knife

I debated either going to the beginners forum or here. I feel as I would get more responses in the beginners forum, but I settled on where I would get fewer, but more informed. Let me know if you should stick to the beginners forum.

I got a little over a months worth of shaving in and about ten shaves with my current razor. Its shaving alright, but I feel it could be sharper. I'm new at this so I don't know. Now the bevel is deeper on one side of the blade then the other and just on one side even though its overall thicker on that side, it is thicker in some parts and thinner in others along the edge. Thats true for both sides. I would think the bevel should be even depth across the whole blade and the same depth on both sides of the blade.

So I just bought a Norton 4/8K. I figure I'll use the 4k to even out the bevels and finish it off with the 8K.

My question is, I've seen videos where they put a piece of electrical tape on the spine and I've seen it where they don't. The theory in not putting the tape is that the angle from placing the spine and edge on a flat surface dictates the angle your bevel will be and if you don't allow your spine to wear away at the same rate as your edge, your bevel will get shorter and shorter over time. On the other hand I've heard a short bevel is what you want, but it seems to me the deeper your bevel is the sharper your blade is. How deep should your bevel, visibly be? Finally the thing that has me doubting my reasoning most is how many people I've seen put the tape on the spine.

Also, I've heard you need to get a lapping stone and I've also heard of a slurry stone. A slurry stone I guess is to build a slurry to aid in honing, but I wonder if a slurry stone can function as a lapping stone, whos intent is to even out the hones surface? I'd rather get a slurry stone since its smaller and cheaper. Also if I end up getting a 120/1K stone, could I use the 120 to lap my 4k so each could level the other, same with 1k and 8k?

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The thinner, thicker (wavy?) uneven appearance of the bevel probably has more to do with the grind than with honing and thus is something to be lived with as your honing can't correct that manufacturing defect. The unequal width of the bevels from one side of the blade to the other is a honing issue where more time/pressure was exerted on one side of the blade than on the other, and is more an appearance issue than anything else. So long as the bevels meet somewhere in the middle of the blade at that marvelously small, sharp acute angle which is the edge, you'll have a shaving edge.

good luck

I did a little research and apparently the surface of the razor is wavy and a deeper bevel creates exagerated contour lines. So a shorter bevel is desireable for that reason. But the same website goes against its thought process, by advising to produce a secondary bevel. So the side of the razor, a steap bevel and then a more acute bevel angle to bring it to the edge. This is acheived by multiple sessions of tape (with multiple tape) and no tape passes?

What grind is the razor that you have?
I am not following the tape description from that website , can you give a link please?

http://www.coticule.be/wedges.html

http://www.coticule.be/unicot.html

I have a full hollow, I think?

I have found that many TI razors have a wider bevel on the front side and a smaller one on the back. It seems that this is the way they are gound. I have honed tons of these both new and used for people and normally, I just reset the bevel using a 1K and follow up with the circle process. Sometimes if you have a used razor with a lot of flattening on both sides with the bevel wider on one side, you would set the bevel the same way and it would be corrected. It will not even out the width, but the edge will then behave properly and you can proceed with the honing process. I have not found the need to try to match the width of the bevels on both sides for the razor to perform well. Pretty straight forward. Thanks for the purdy pitures........lol. It is easy to over think some of this, particularly with the examples you have provided. I do however agree with a lot of what the article says, but, the biggest problem with the wedges we see is that there is significant flattening on both the spines and the bevels of these razors and typically the flattening is not the same on both sides. This creates the dilemma of whether you remove enough metal from both sides to try to get the edge to lay flat on the stone or try an alternative technique like a rolling X or exaggerated rolling X to create your bevel and then continue to use it with the rest of your honing. A simple layer or two of tape to steepen the angle of the bevel may only exaggerate the existing damage which will continue to show on the spine and a gazillion layers of tape may hamper the entire process. Honing is fun.......

Have fun.

I think a photo would be worth approximately 1000 words here.

Lynn, thank you greatly, that was good info. Unfortunately I'm too green to really understand most of what you said. And I wouldn't bother you by dissecting that paragraph into an absurd amount of questions. Chances are the answers would lead to only more questions. I'll just browse through the forum and pick things up little by little.

So just to get me started should I use tape or not?

Is a smaller bevel more desirable?

And can I use a small slurry stone in lieu of a diamond encrusted, very expensive lapping plate? Or just lap a 1K over a 8K to flatten each other?

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Originally Posted by mainaman

Tape is optional and changes the bevel angle by something like 0.2 degrees if I remember correctly so it will not affect the end result.

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That may be true, but as the razors edge is worked back and back, if the spine is perserved the whole time then that bevel will be significantly shorter in later years I would imagine. In other words when the razor is half its width, if the spine isn't hone away with the edge to keep that angle going, the bevels depth will be theoretically half its original depth. I don't know maybe thats good?

Yes use tape, as you are new, the tape will protect your spines from damage.

Personally I use tape all the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Knife

That may be true, but as the razors edge is worked back and back, if the spine is perserved the whole time then that bevel will be significantly shorter in later years I would imagine. In other words when the razor is half its width, if the spine isn't hone away with the edge to keep that angle going, the bevels depth will be theoretically half its original depth. I don't know maybe thats good?

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Once honed the razor then will only needs touch ups on a finishing stone say 2-3 times a year.
If you hone properly the razor will never be half its width, if a razor gets to half its width it will be unusable no matter tape or no tape.

Hi Knife,

The answer to your lapping/slurry stone question is this: get the DMT 325 plate for lapping and also use it to create slurry. A slurry stone is too small to establish a flat surface over the face of your hone. You can also get some wet-dry sandpaper and put it on your countertop, then lap against that. I've never done it that way, so don't know how long the sandpaper lasts. It's a good solution if you're an occasional honer.

Two surfaces rubbed against one another won't necessarily flatten one another (unless one of them is the indestructible DMT), because if one is slightly dished it will just wear a matching bowl into the other surface. The solution is to have three surfaces and work them in all the different combinations. The three surfaces should be close to the same in terms of how easily they erode... which is hard to gauge with your hones if you're new to them. Your best, and cheapest, solution in the long run is the DMT. The 6" continuous plate is what I use. It's smaller than many of my hones, but still big enough to give me good flattening coverage. I wouldn't use anything smaller, though, and wouldn't use a Harbor Freight or other bargain-priced diamond plate. I bought one around a year ago and am lucky I checked it with a straight edge before using it on my hones--it was NOT FLAT. That would have caused very expensive damage if I'd distorted my hone surfaces with it. I would have had to get a DMT or other quality plate and wear away that much more hone surface. It would literally have been money down the drain.

While you're learning to hone, use tape. Change the tape every time you change grits; it wears down with use. It's best to do your learning on a flea-market blade so you don't make your learning mistakes on your shaving blade. Get a decent old German blade in ugly scales--that'll keep it inexpensive. Don't get a cheap Gold Star or Kriegar or similar, because its steel probably won't take a shaving edge anyway.

Here's a post from about a week ago where I outlined my decision process about taping. The first reason, about fixing a warp or bad grind, is a judgement you learn to make. As Lynn pointed out, sometimes the blade's problem is a little greater than you could hone out. In those cases I think it's better to err toward protecting the spine. The spine is the razor's built-in honing jig, and if you wear it disproportionately you'll be stuck with high bevels forevermore. Unless, that is, you tape forever after. :banghead:

Best wishes

Lots of good stuff to go with in this thread. I used tape my first year honing on all razors. I didn't have confidence in my ability and was afraid I'd cause excessive wear on the spine. After a year I began experimenting with honing without tape and now I almost never use it unless it is damascus or decorated spines. I would suggest you use it at least until you gain some proficiency with your honing. I've never used slurry with synthetic stones since I've never felt the need. Try it if you are so inclined. :gl:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Knife

. . .
I got a little over a months worth of shaving in and about ten shaves with my current razor. Its shaving alright, but I feel it could be sharper. I'm new at this so I don't know. Now the bevel is deeper on one side of the blade then the other and just on one side even though its overall thicker on that side, it is thicker in some parts and thinner in others along the edge. Thats true for both sides. I would think the bevel should be even depth across the whole blade and the same depth on both sides of the blade. . . .

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Don't do it.

If the two faces of the bevel meet in a sharp edge, all along the blade, the bevel is good.

Variations in the thickness of the blade near the edge, and very small warps in the blade, will result in bevel widths that vary along the edge. There's no problem with that.

If you try to "fix" that situation, you're more likely to ruin the edge, than to improve it.

Before using an 8K stone to make the edge sharper, try using a CrOxide pasted strop.

If CrOxide doesn't work, then an 8K stone should refresh the edge.

But, unless your razor has a perfectly-ground blade, and is absolutely un-warped, you won't get the perfectly even bevel faces you're looking for.

Charles

To answer your questions directly:

Yes, use tape.

Get a DMT 325. Most useful tool on my honing tool belt. Use it to lap and you will also create a slurry. Then you can use it to breadknife, and to set a rough bevel shape after breadknifing. Best $50 you'll ever spend on your honing set-up. I typically don't worry too much about slurry with synthetic stones...with a coticule, yes.

Don't obsess over the size of the bevel. As said before, it tends to depend on the grind of the razor and is almost an individual trait of each razor. What you should try to do is keep the bevel as even as possible, regardless of how small or large.

Just do the best you can. 90% of the "work" of honing happens at 325 or 1k, whatever you use to set bevels, you can't build a masterpiece without a good foundation.