J-nat & Coticule where to start.

It seams as if both of these stones have a following of there own. I have been at this str8 thing for about 2 mounths with good results. But it's getting time to touch up my razor. And would like to get into natural stones. I dont know where to start.Coticule or J-nat I know whear to buy a coticule but what is a good sit to buy a J-nat. How much do they differ from one another? I'm looking for a good stone to maintain my razor? I don't want to buy a lot of stones so witch one is more versitial? Thanks

Good question! For me, this is what I learned from this site. Got a Norton 4/8 combo and learned to hone on it with an old $25.00 razor that I bought from one of the members. I also got a stone to lap the Norton, to make sure it was perfectly flat. After a while I got a 12 K Chinese natural. I also learned how to use this stone by practicing with that old razor. This is the point I'm making, learn first how to hone, it is an art unique unto itself. Take lots of time to learn. See if you can find someone in your Atlanta area who could help you, maybe lend you the stones b/4 you comit to buying. Now I use my J-Nat (Shoubudani Aisa)with tomonaugra. All of this, for me, is a process. A small step after a small step. It is not a destination but a journey and I hope yopu have as much fun with your journey as I have had with mine.:gl:

There would be many different views on that around here:)

I have, and use, both, and must confess to preferring the various JNats I have.
That said, used correctly, both will work splendidly. That is if you get a good one.
These are all naturals, so they do not all perform equal.

As for versatility, I would say they are both usable for many aspects of honing. With a JNat, I would typically use Naguras and finish on a light TomoNagura slurry or water.

On my Coticule I will normally use a slurry which I would dilute and then finish on water only.

I do not use either for bevel-setting, although I'm sure it can be done, and that some do.

To sum up, if you get a good specimen for touching up a blade that is loosing the keenness, both will do you fine.

My favorite place for Japanese naturals is Japanesenaturalstones.com. It is run by an enthusiast, and member here.

Good luck with your choice:)

I'd get both if the money was not an object, for me my Jnats work much better than my 3 Coticules for getting the best edge possible.

I agree with all of the previous posters. The norton 4/8 is very good for all around sharpening and finishing IME. I like that as the foundation for a honing arsenal. The coticule is good for sharpening and finishing, depending on which one you end up with, but on average they are all good. The j-nat is also a 'depending on which one' situation and will produce a superior edge ..... IME. OTOH, the coticule is a nice edge too so getting both is a good way to go if the $ and the desire allow it.

No issues w/ what's posted - fine stuff. That's certainly no surprise.
What I'm wondering is what stones you have now? '...don't where to start - coticule or jnat'.
I'm w/ Jimmy - unless you already have and can get good shaves w/ a synthetic (norton or nani), either the coti or jnat can become a longer road than getting basics down with the synthetics, and then taking those basic skills to the naturals. Can you start w/ the others? Sure. But cementing good basic skills will be harder to get good feedback on - 'cause of the variation in the naturals. The number of people that can help with issues on Norton or Nani is HUGE. Help on the others is more difficult to convey, unless you use that person's stone. Here, you're needing someone's help that's used alot of stones of the type you're learning with. And they're trying to guide without knowledge of your stone's characteristics.
The excitement/romance of the natural can overwhelm the mundane road of cementing basic skills. Those skills will take you WAY further than any gucci rock.

As stated, if the money is not an object, get both. It's nice to experiment and try to find a balance between aggressiveness and smoothness.

I have no stones now. That is why I'm asking. I don't want to have a big stock pile of stone would like just one or two. I want a stone to get me to shave ready and or to maintain it. After seeing the price of the J-nat and coticule for that matter I definitely don't want to spend 70-80 on a 4/8 when I want to get to the naturals and have a maintanece stone. I'm I wrong thinking that way. For that matter Mabe I just need to start with a barber stone and drop some more money there. Or is that the place to start just seamed to me that if all these people where so crazy about these stone that hey are so good why wast time and money on anything els.

For what you want to do, a coticule, a japanese stone, a chinese stone, or a barber hone should be fine. Each of these has its own following so you'll have a tough time determining a "best" fit for you. It is my opinion that you don't need to develop your skills on another stone to be able to use any of these four proficiently. It may help, but I don't think it's vital. There are lots of videos on youtube as well as information here for you to use (regarding any of the four). If you don't want to spend the 70 bucks on a synthetic, don't do it. The perhaps bad news is that you'll need to personalize whatever you read/see to your particular stone, but I see that as more of a fun thing than a burden. Opinions vary. Also, you run the risk of getting a "dud" natural stone. I've never seen one of these but they exist. Buying from a reputable dealer can help to minimize this risk. Good luck!

I own both as well, and have been using the Coticule before the J-Nat to smooth out the 1k scratches a bit quicker. Only takes a few laps on moderate slurry, but requires much less work on the Botan nagura.
Big +1 on the Norton 4k/8k, another stone will simply be luxury.

First, I would categorise these stones slightly differently. There is only one coticule (albeit there are different veins with slight variations - but they are variations on the same theme) whereas Jnats cover a plethora of hardnesses, speeds, and fineness. So I am not sure comparing a coticule with a Jnat is particularly fair on the coticule. It's like comparing a handyman to 5 master craftsmen.

The coticule has been tested over the years by better men than I, and the general conclusions are that it is a very versatile stone. If you know what you are doing it will set a bevel (BBW), pre-polish, and finish! It is a jack-of-all-trades stone. But, as with all things versatile, individually there are better. There are better and more efficient bevel-setters, better and more efficient pre-polishers, better and more efficient finishers.

So when you say Jnat or Coti I find it an incongruous comparison. If you are talking about finishing stones, I have yet to hear anyone claim the coti can put a 30K edge on a razor, so to me there is no comparison at all in the finishing stakes. If you want it as a bevel setter....why?? :) I can understand it as a pre-polisher, but again there are other options there too.

If money is an issue and you can only afford one stone, then I can understand the Coti, or a coti/BBW combo. I think in terms of versatility it is probably King and Queen of the naturals. But if you can afford several specific-purpose stones, I'd go other routes.

As with all things YYMV. This can be a hot-button topic, and these are just my personal opinions.

James.

Hi Goingstr8;

A high quality barber hone could maintain your edge indefinitely. These are man-made and more predictable then a natural stone. Getting a good quality natural stone can be an expensive gamble. Here is a picture of a “000” Frictionite barber hone, very high quality. Sometimes you can find them on Ebay. Have fun.
MIke

http://i.imgur.com/eegrn.jpg

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/lR33q.jpg[/IMG

http://i.imgur.com/z3kyc.jpg://

I have to agree with the previous post. Get a good barber hone, they are consistent and affordable and all you will ever need for touch ups. It would also be somewhat difficult to screw up an edge.

+1 on the Norton first. Then start having fun w/ finishers. If you get a good one & learn how to use it (they're all different), you won't have to sacrifice sharpness for smoothness either--in fact they often go together on most finishers. ;)

Other then e-bay where can you get a high end barber hone

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

First, I would categorise these stones slightly differently. There is only one coticule (albeit there are different veins with slight variations - but they are variations on the same theme) whereas Jnats cover a plethora of hardnesses, speeds, and fineness. So I am not sure comparing a coticule with a Jnat is particularly fair on the coticule. It's like comparing a handyman to 5 master craftsmen.

The coticule has been tested over the years by better men than I, and the general conclusions are that it is a very versatile stone. If you know what you are doing it will set a bevel (BBW), pre-polish, and finish! It is a jack-of-all-trades stone. But, as with all things versatile, individually there are better. There are better and more efficient bevel-setters, better and more efficient pre-polishers, better and more efficient finishers.

So when you say Jnat or Coti I find it an incongruous comparison. If you are talking about finishing stones, I have yet to hear anyone claim the coti can put a 30K edge on a razor, so to me there is no comparison at all in the finishing stakes. If you want it as a bevel setter....why?? :) I can understand it as a pre-polisher, but again there are other options there too.

If money is an issue and you can only afford one stone, then I can understand the Coti, or a coti/BBW combo. I think in terms of versatility it is probably King and Queen of the naturals. But if you can afford several specific-purpose stones, I'd go other routes.

As with all things YYMV. This can be a hot-button topic, and these are just my personal opinions.

James.

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I agree with much of this post. I wouldn't say that a coticule can put a 30K edge on a razor, but I've gotten results in terms of keenness and comfort that are very comparable to my Shapton 30K honed razors. In fact, I never use my Shaptons any more as I prefer my coticule edges. I will confess to finding the synthetics easier, though :)

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

First, I would categorise these stones slightly differently. There is only one coticule (albeit there are different veins with slight variations - but they are variations on the same theme) whereas Jnats cover a plethora of hardnesses, speeds, and fineness. So I am not sure comparing a coticule with a Jnat is particularly fair on the coticule. It's like comparing a handyman to 5 master craftsmen.

The coticule has been tested over the years by better men than I, and the general conclusions are that it is a very versatile stone. If you know what you are doing it will set a bevel (BBW), pre-polish, and finish! It is a jack-of-all-trades stone. But, as with all things versatile, individually there are better. There are better and more efficient bevel-setters, better and more efficient pre-polishers, better and more efficient finishers.

So when you say Jnat or Coti I find it an incongruous comparison. If you are talking about finishing stones, I have yet to hear anyone claim the coti can put a 30K edge on a razor, so to me there is no comparison at all in the finishing stakes. If you want it as a bevel setter....why?? :) I can understand it as a pre-polisher, but again there are other options there too.

If money is an issue and you can only afford one stone, then I can understand the Coti, or a coti/BBW combo. I think in terms of versatility it is probably King and Queen of the naturals. But if you can afford several specific-purpose stones, I'd go other routes.

As with all things YYMV. This can be a hot-button topic, and these are just my personal opinions.

James.

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You can actually put a 30k caliber edge on a razor using a BBW and soapy water. I have.

Yup, Depend on the driver and the stone, some or those are not the Garden Variety BBW many of us know…

A good smooth edge though, 30k?

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Yup, Depend on the driver and the stone, some or those are not the Garden Variety BBW many of us know…

A good smooth edge though, 30k?

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I got those 30k results on 3 different currently mined BBW's using soapy water.

I get 36-43k on mine.

The numbers really get quite pointless when discussing natural hones--also known as rocks.

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Originally Posted by Goingst8

I have no stones now. That is why I'm asking. I don't want to have a big stock pile of stone would like just one or two. I want a stone to get me to shave ready and or to maintain it. After seeing the price of the J-nat and coticule for that matter I definitely don't want to spend 70-80 on a 4/8 when I want to get to the naturals and have a maintanece stone. I'm I wrong thinking that way. For that matter Mabe I just need to start with a barber stone and drop some more money there. Or is that the place to start just seamed to me that if all these people where so crazy about these stone that hey are so good why wast time and money on anything els.

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People around here are more CRAZY than normal and that includes myself...

I would go with the 4/8k to begin with. The variables are then with you. Chances are you are going to make a mistake with the 8k and use the 4k. Way more consistent than a barber hone that is also man made. Once you get a reliable edge then you can chase the perfect one with a natural.

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Originally Posted by 32t

People around here are more CRAZY than normal and that includes myself...

I would go with the 4/8k to begin with. The variables are then with you. Chances are you are going to make a mistake with the 8k and use the 4k. Way more consistent than a barber hone that is also man made. Once you get a reliable edge then you can chase the perfect one with a natural.

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I never bothered to learn on synthetics, though I have had my razors honed on a Shapton 30k before, which was my reference point for comparison in my earlier posts.

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Originally Posted by ShaveWares

I never bothered to learn on synthetics, though I have had my razors honed on a Shapton 30k before, which was my reference point for comparison in my earlier posts.

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I don't know why you quoted me. I was not referring to you.....

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Originally Posted by Goingst8

I don't want to have a big stock pile of stone would like just one or two.

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Allow me to point out your FIRST obvious error. That is exactly how I started out and now I have 15 hones of various kinds.

I like all my hones, but I think the Coticule is a very good start and if you are happy with it, there's no need to move on from there. I actually don't use my Coticule these days, I'm dabbling in Jnats and such, but the old Coticule is still there....as my trusted backup, as are my complete set of Naniwa SS hones, BBW, 2 barbers hones, Thuringen, Escher and.... well... like I said at the beginning, thinking you only want one or two stones..... <sigh>

So, I would suggest you pick what you THINK you like, and see how it goes. Coticules and Jnats are both good, different for sure, but they are both good and can do more than just finishing if called for.

I got my Coticule and BBW from Howard and my Jnats from Garret, both will steer you straight on stones, but there are many other reputable dealers.

Regards

Christian aka

Kaptain "The hone you don't have is ALWAYS the better hone" Zero

I've yet to be satisfied from a coticule. This includes all my attempts at multiple stones and that of pro honing. Jnats on the other hand are my bread and butter. Contact jnats (username here) or visit his website japanese-whetstones.com. if you contact him he will make sure you get a stone that performs and can accommodate any price range. Good luck, it's a long, dark, expensive road from here.

How about some pics of this new, 30k BBW?

You guys know, this thread is 5.5 years old… right?

I want to see this BBW... We have been wasting our time and money...

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

How about some pics of this new, 30k BBW?

You guys know, this thread is 5.5 years old… right?

I want to see this BBW... We have been wasting our time and money...

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Dang it! They trolled me lol. Yea a 30k bbw seems like a far stretch of the imagination. I can't even get a coticule to shave my face against the grain, much less a coarser bbw. Now my jnat is probably in the 20-30k range, but that isn't far fetched.

Amazing bump. Not much has changed apparently ....

You use a bbw with soapy water only, it gives an edge similar to that from a 30k Shapton. I get BBS shaves going against the grain as well cuts that don't even warn you (like the 30k shapton edge) yet feel mellow and smooth to the skin. The key is spending enough time on the bbw with the soapy water. I'm talking like 200 or so laps.

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Originally Posted by prodigy

Dang it! They trolled me lol. Yea a 30k bbw seems like a far stretch of the imagination. I can't even get a coticule to shave my face against the grain, much less a coarser bbw. Now my jnat is probably in the 20-30k range, but that isn't far fetched.

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It's all in your technique and it is very doable. Those stones are as keen as any jnat if you employ the proper technique.