Please suggest a finishing stone

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10-19-2011, 09:02 AM
Slur

Please suggest a finishing stone

Excuse me for opening this thread. I know most of you will find it boring and will advise me to read the hones’ section of the forum. Believe me I read hundreds of posts regarding the finishing stones but the more I read the more I get confused.

I am into razor honing for about 6-8 months. So I am a newbie. I have a Norton 220/1000 comb, a Norton 4000/8000 comb, some low grit naturals and the Chinese finishing stone.
I can say that I am satisfied with my Chinese stone, but at this point I am thinking of buying my second finishing stone.

Could you please suggest a finishing stone which in your opinion is better from the Chinese, and could be considered as the next step?

Please do not suggest very expensive stones, or stones hard to find in the market.
Thank you in advanced.
10-19-2011, 09:24 AM
justalex

Hmmm... I usually don't venture beyond the 12k range but, if you want to a bit more keenness, thiers issard white paste is pretty good and crox is good for creating a more forgiving softer edge, but these are pastes and not hones...

Depends what more do you want from the edge? more keenness or a smoother edge. I shaved off a chinese 12k and it gives a pretty good edge. I use a Belgian coticule and they give super smooth edges but IME there's a big learning curve to get a good edge, but its really simple when you do. A naniwa 12k gives a smooth super keen edge, but IMO are a little expensive.

Have you had a honemeister hone one of your razors? you could find a honemeister to hone up a razor for you in the finishing hones your interested in and see if you like the edges. Thats probably the quickest way to see if you'll like the edge from a certain finisher without spending alot of money.
10-19-2011, 09:56 AM
Slur

Thank you for your answer. But you didn’t suggest a stone yet :)

I am not asking for a stone to use after the C12k, but a stone to substitute the C12k. A finishing stone to use after the Norton 8k.

I had a razor honed by Lynn and I loved the edge. Unfortunately I don’t know what finishing stone did he use :hmmm:
10-19-2011, 10:07 AM
JimR

Naniwa's 12k or Shapton 12\15k.

Next question!
10-19-2011, 10:11 AM
mainaman

You have a few options, Escher ot vintage Thuringian, Jnat, Charnley Forrest, 12k Super Stone.
It is hard to advise which is best as that is a personal preference, and you have to try edges from each to really know which one you will like.
Then there is the price side of the matter, Eschers go for a lot of money, vintage Thuringians are cheaper. Jnats are not that expensive for a smaller size.
12k SS is a nice cheaper synthetic option to a natural finisher, but you might need to compliment it either CrO or diamond spray to get the best edge coming off it.
10-19-2011, 10:13 AM
justalex

Quote:

Naniwa's 12k or Shapton 12\15k.

question answered. +1 on the Naniwa
10-19-2011, 10:29 AM
onimaru55

Rather than buying a second stone at random or on someone's say so. Think about what you "need " from this second finisher. If you just want a bit more speed in finishing, any of the 12-16 k synthetics should provide that. Hopefully you don't consider them expensive but you will probably not find anything else for the price of the Chinese polisher.
You can pick very specific qualities in naturals but the price may also be high. You don't say what you consider a high price so it's hard to advise.
10-19-2011, 10:29 AM
Slur

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimR

Naniwa's 12k or Shapton 12\15k.

Next question!

By suggesting Shapton 12/15K you mean this one?
Shapton GlassStone 16000 Grit
10-19-2011, 10:40 AM
JimR

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slur

By suggesting Shapton 12/15K you mean this one?
Shapton GlassStone 16000 Grit

No, I'm referring to the Shapton Pro stones. I've never used the 16K glass stone but it certainly has its fans. I like the 30k but it's waaaay too expensive.

The reason I put 12/15 is that there is some speculation that the stone sold as 15K abroad is sold in Japan as a 12K...either way it's a quality stone.

Listen, you're going to get tons of opinions on this, and no clarity will come of it. The thing you should be asking is, what finishing stone should you NOT buy. The answer is: a cheap ugly Japanese stone off eBay.

Pretty much anything else will do you fine.
10-19-2011, 10:43 AM
johnmrson

I prefer natural finishing stones. I've got 2 JNAT's, a Frankonian and 3 coticules that I use. Oz made a very good point. What do you want from the stone? That will help you decide.
10-19-2011, 10:46 AM
Slur

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimR

The thing you should be asking is, what finishing stone should you NOT buy. The answer is: a cheap ugly Japanese stone off eBay.

This is clear :D

I am between the shapton 12k and the naniwa 12k.
I will consider the oracle to choose in between. :gl:

Thank you all!
10-19-2011, 12:25 PM
Disburden

Id go natural and get a nice coticule or an oozuku asagi from masksim at japanesenaturalstones.com

Imo synthetics aren't nice on the finish.
10-19-2011, 01:11 PM
Slur

Unfortunately Disburden, the stones that cost less than 100€ are all out of stock

Honing maniacs have bought them all :rant:
10-19-2011, 01:13 PM
jeness

For a beginner, I would stay with the synth finishers. They are faster, bigger, easier to use, and cheaper. Naturals have their own character, learn to use them after you can use a synthetic. The edges off the nani 12k and crox are super, I am sure the shapton is the same. The odds are high that you are not even getting out the max from your chinese, so another natural would be meaningless.
10-19-2011, 01:22 PM
Slur

I am very satisfied with my Chinese. I want to buy my second finishing stone for hobby reasons. I don’t need it. I want it.
10-19-2011, 01:35 PM
jeness

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slur

I am very satisfied with my Chinese. I want to buy my second finishing stone for hobby reasons. I don’t need it. I want it.

I think I have seen this sentence wrote down here in the forum a few dozen times :D
10-19-2011, 02:18 PM
gugi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slur

Could you please suggest a finishing stone which in your opinion is better from the Chinese, and could be considered as the next step?

Nobody can recommend anything that is 'better', only 'different'. Whether it is 'better' or 'worse' you'll find out yourself only after using it.

Then if you ask what is 'different', the answer would be 'anything', including most likely another block of the chinese stone - they have noticeably large variations among them. So, just pick whatever fits your budget and seems appealing, for what you want out of it (find something that you may like better) one is just as good as any other.
10-19-2011, 02:52 PM
zib

I think a Naniwa 12k or Shapton 16k GS meets your criteria. Both are synthetics, but good stones with solid reputations. Most natural finishers are expensive, Coticules, J Nats, Charnley and Escher. Yes, you can get a less expensive Coticule or J Nat, but it'd be a small piece for less than 100.00. Not even sure you can find a J nat under 100.00
10-19-2011, 03:29 PM
Slur

What’s the difference between Shapton Pro and Shapton GlassStone ?
10-20-2011, 12:11 AM
Kingfish

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slur

What’s the difference between Shapton Pro and Shapton GlassStone ?

Glass stone were formulated to handle more exotic modern alloys but do awesome job on carbon steel too making them more versitile.

Pro series are a little harder and were made for carbon steel with the exeption of the 12k that handles alloys a bit better.
10-20-2011, 12:30 AM
onimaru55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slur

What’s the difference between Shapton Pro and Shapton GlassStone ?

About 10mm :p

On a serious note, structurally, the stones are a little different & the GS is aimed at specific steels ie A-2 .
The Pro is a little harder & the GS a little softer. For the few strokes used in finishing it doesn't matter.
In the real world your razors will be hard pressed to know which honed them.
10-20-2011, 05:22 AM
johnmrson

You can't go wrong with Thuringian. I haven't me anyone yet who didn't like a Thuringian edge and you'd get one in your budget.
10-20-2011, 06:55 AM
Vasilis

In my opinion, the yellow lake stone, is quite similar to the Chinese 12k. And pretty cheap. For something finer and a bit more expensive, Llyn idwals, Charnleys, thuringians or the franconian would be a good choice, although I haven't tested the last one. I read something recently about comparing naturals with synthetics. Someone said, naturals under 1000grit are not a good choice, and man made hones over 1000 grit are not quite as good as their natural equivalent. I wouldn't say I agree, I have a little experience on synthetic hones after all, but i can see a point there, especially for the higher grits. From the pictures I have seen under microscope, naturals leave a more uniform scratch pattern and are less prone to overhonning. That's my opinion, I'm sure many of you disagree, but I would go for a natural.
10-29-2011, 04:20 PM
Blademen

There is nothing wrong with the Chinese finishing stone. For the $$$$ they great hones.
10-29-2011, 08:39 PM
PA23-250

I would advise you to try this: #1--keep in mind that people telling you what they personally like is what works for them; not necessarily for you. :) #2: try many different finishes yourself & see what you like. (For this, I'd recommend sending a razor out to various people who are known for being very proficient @ using a particular finisher. When the razor needs a touchup, send it out to the next finisher expert until you've sampled all the finishes you want to try. :)) #3: Find a good, reliable, trusted source for your finisher if it's a natural--particularly a Jnat.

Avoid high-volume eBay vendors like Yersinia pestis!:medvl:
10-29-2011, 08:46 PM
jeness

Quote:

Originally Posted by PA23-250

I would advise you to try this: #1--keep in mind that people telling you what they personally like is what works for them; not necessarily for you. :) #2: try many different finishes yourself & see what you like. (For this, I'd recommend sending a razor out to various people who are known for being very proficient @ using a particular finisher. When the razor needs a touchup, send it out to the next finisher expert until you've sampled all the finishes you want to try. :)) #3: Find a good, reliable, trusted source for your finisher if it's a natural--particularly a Jnat.

Avoid high-volume eBay vendors like Yersinia pestis!:medvl:

Only thing I can add here is that you should get all the different finishes from the same person. I got about a dozen coti honed razors from people who are regarded as good honers, and there was a VERY large gap between the best and the worst razor I got back. If you send every razor to the same person, the skill of the honer will be the same, with different finishers. In my experience, it would be meaningless to send the razors to different people.
10-29-2011, 09:07 PM
gssixgun

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeness

Only thing I can add here is that you should get all the different finishes from the same person. I got about a dozen coti honed razors from people who are regarded as good honers, and there was a VERY large gap between the best and the worst razor I got back. If you send every razor to the same person, the skill of the honer will be the same, with different finishers. In my experience, it would be meaningless to send the razors to different people.

The skill of the Honer is but one variable, the quality of the Coticule is the other....
10-29-2011, 09:11 PM
jeness

Quote:

Originally Posted by gssixgun

The skill of the Honer is but one variable, the quality of the Coticule is the other....

Well, thats one more thing if we talk about naturals :)
11-02-2011, 09:11 PM
stingray

The only thing wrong with the shapton stones is that you really need to buy the shapton lapping stone to keep them flat...I never used anything else on my shaptons but someone might have an idea. Problem, The lapping stone costs near $300. I love mine but it is very expensive.

Oh yeah...I love my shaptons !!

buy them here:

[URL="http://www.theperfectedge.com/

Stingray
11-02-2011, 09:51 PM
Blix

Quote:

Originally Posted by stingray

The only thing wrong with the shapton stones is that you really need to buy the shapton lapping stone to keep them flat...I never used anything else on my shaptons but someone might have an idea. Problem, The lapping stone costs near $300. I love mine but it is very expensive.

Oh yeah...I love my shaptons !!

buy them here:

URL="http://www.theperfectedge.com/

Stingray

No you don't need the Shapton lapping stone, a DMT 325 works perfectly fine with them. :)
11-02-2011, 10:40 PM
johnmrson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blix

No you don't need the Shapton lapping stone, a DMT 325 works perfectly fine with them. :)

Same here. I lap my Shapton Ceramic Pro stones on a DMT325 without any problems. I lapped a 16k and 30k glass backed with it as well.
11-03-2011, 09:53 AM
Pithor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slur

I am into razor honing for about 6-8 months. So I am a newbie.

If you've been honing razors for 6-8 months more or less regularly, I wouldn't consider you a honing expert but far from a newbie too. Don't underestimate your skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zib

I think a Naniwa 12k or Shapton 16k GS meets your criteria. Both are synthetics, but good stones with solid reputations. Most natural finishers are expensive, Coticules, J Nats, Charnley and Escher. Yes, you can get a less expensive Coticule or J Nat, but it'd be a small piece for less than 100.00. Not even sure you can find a J nat under 100.00

A coticule under/around $100 will be around the 4x15 cm / 5x10 cm mark, IMHO ideal razor hone sizes. My bout, ca. 4x12 cm was around $70 incl. shipping within Europe, US would be some $10-$15 on top of that, so around $90 for a good sized natural combination hone. Which would be the same as a naniwa super 12k incl. shipping I reckon.

I don't quite understand the need for 6x20 cm hones, just as I don't quite understand the need for 3" strops, but those are two completely different discussions that have no place here, so I'll shut up before I start yapping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gssixgun

The skill of the Honer is but one variable, the quality of the Coticule is the other....

Or to draw those two together: the skill of the honer on his particular coticule (since their characteristics vary), unless you're talking about coticules with other mineral inclusions, which will damage your edge and are unusable. But again, a completely unrelated topic. So again, I'll stop yapping (after of course saying something on it :hmmm: Forgive me my mild hypocrisy :p).

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimR

Listen, you're going to get tons of opinions on this, and no clarity will come of it. The thing you should be asking is, what finishing stone should you NOT buy. The answer is: a cheap ugly Japanese stone off eBay.

Pretty much anything else will do you fine.

I think this is pretty much your answer. There are many affordable options for around $100 or less, including but not limited to thuringians, naniwa's, shaptons, coticules, a variety of miscallaneous natural stones (I'm not including pastes, since Slur made it quite clear he wants a stone and is not in need of anything). It's really what holds your fancy, you'll get a good shaving edge off of all of these, even though the edges (and hones, of course) may differ in character.
11-04-2011, 02:39 AM
Zeus

I have only 3 hones, but I think it would be hard to beat a Franz Swaty. You can get one for a reasonable price on ebay. I didn't see any comments here about them, but it seems to be all i would ever need in a finishing hone
11-04-2011, 03:07 AM
TwistedOak

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeus

I have only 3 hones, but I think it would be hard to beat a Franz Swaty. You can get one for a reasonable price on ebay. I didn't see any comments here about them, but it seems to be all i would ever need in a finishing hone

The reason a Swaty wasn't mentioned is because it's a barber's hone and generally well below the 12k-16k range that is being discussed as a new finisher option...
11-04-2011, 07:31 AM
jeness

It is also small, not too predictable, and most likely you will have to lap the hell out of it to get it in nice conditon. Much better options out there imo. You can even get a small coti for that money, and it will be a better finisher.
11-04-2011, 06:36 PM
Zeus

I have never seen a real definitive answer about what grit a Swaty may be, but it has to be near 10K. Am I wrong? Admittedly my knowledge here is limited, but it seems to give a really good edge. I have read that an 8k would be the minimum to use. Surely a swaty is finer than that. Maybe there is a better option for me. I just came across a hone at an antique store that seems to be a slate type hone. Gives a great edge, though.
11-04-2011, 06:48 PM
Joed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeus

I have only 3 hones, but I think it would be hard to beat a Franz Swaty. You can get one for a reasonable price on ebay. I didn't see any comments here about them, but it seems to be all i would ever need in a finishing hone

Many of us have splurged on more expensive hones and use them so we report on them. I have a bunch of barber's hones but never use them because of the other hones I have available. Many a people have been shaved off Swaty honed razors and survived the experience. When I first started into straight razors only a few years ago, the 8k Norton is what most of us used as a finishing hone and a few of use had Coticules as finishers. Times have changed quickly and the bar has been raised in the finished smoothness of straight razors. This does not knock the Swaty or it capabilities as a finisher hone. As I often say, if you are happy with the results and are having fun you are on the right road.
11-04-2011, 06:54 PM
gssixgun

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeus

I have never seen a real definitive answer about what grit a Swaty may be, but it has to be near 10K. Am I wrong? Admittedly my knowledge here is limited, but it seems to give a really good edge. I have read that an 8k would be the minimum to use. Surely a swaty is finer than that. .

For many moons Barber's Hones and many others were rated pretty low... then the Shapton system gained popularity in our circles and the next thing we saw was wild eyed claims for grit guesses

Go back in the archives if you don't believe this...

This was pre Shapton grit guesses

Barber's hone = 6-8
Coticule = 6-8
BBW = 4
Escher = 10-12
Japanese (ig: )= 12
Thuringens (ig: ) = 8-10
Chinese = :shrug:
Charnely Forest = 10
TOS = 6
WOA = 8
These were just some of the ones I remember and I am pretty sure of the old grit guesses...
After the Shapton 16k and 30k became widely used everyone's pet stone all of a sudden started to go up in the grit guessing game... :rofl2:

What any of them really are is always just a guess...although the guess of 50k that I recently saw from an e-bay honester was about laughable..
11-04-2011, 06:55 PM
Slur

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeus

I have only 3 hones, but I think it would be hard to beat a Franz Swaty. You can get one for a reasonable price on ebay. I didn't see any comments here about them, but it seems to be all i would ever need in a finishing hone

I have a swaty but I don’t consider it a finishing stone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeness

most likely you will have to lap the hell out of it to get it in nice conditon.

+1
It is really very hard to flatten.
11-05-2011, 02:26 AM
Zeus

So a barber hone like a Swaty would be a 6-8 k, but mine sure seems a whole lot finer and smoother than a 6k stone I have. It seems very smooth and slick, and I always get smooth and close shaves.