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Looks like the 16 is now going for $130 @ pretty much every vendor. Every stone seems to have gone up 30%. Anyone know if this is due to the Yen or something else? Haven't checked lately, but the Naniwa SS & Choseras seem to be the same price, so maybe not the exchange rate? :shrug:
OTOH, w/ the 30k now going for what it is, it makes finishing quality Jnats seem more affordable... :D
Seems like everything is going up except wages ..... a dollar is worth about a dime in terms of buying power from when I was a young guy ...... course that was a looong time ago.
Since the yen has risen about 22% against the dollar and shows no signs of falling, I'd say that's the culprit.
Don't mean to get off the subject here, BUT...Jim, is that Miyamoto Musashi in your avatar pic?
Dammit... I just checked myself and you're quite right. I should have picked one up years ago when the price was lower and constant :(
On the plus side I'm very happy with my Naniwa 12k, which I know produces results very comparable with the Shapton 16k- at nearly half the price :)
I'm really thinking of doing GS 4-8-16 before my Oozuku for when I start doing more barbershop razors. Those & a Chosera 1k for bevels. I'll probably still pull the trigger when the time comes for that, but still: ouch! :gth
It sure it. I should change it, I've been using it way too long.Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsmandave
You mean that ain't a picture of you ? :gaah:Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR
Jim you are spot on. The last time I arrived at Narita Airport and exchanged currency for every $100 I passed through that little window, I walked away with only 3 $20s and a $10 and a few $1. And frankly speaking, with the Shapton 30k Glass grit layer only being 4.5mm thick that is per mm quite a hunk of change. Alx
My Oozuku is ~20mm thick & all of that is usable. Cost a bit more than the 30k, but not much more than the current price. A real bargain, probably, whether per mm or per g. Actually, these Jnats (per gram) are kind of a bargain compared to Eschers & even coticules now. Anyone care to speculate what a 210x75x25 chunk of pure coticule (no slate backing) would cost? :D
Jnats are nowadays almost cheaper than cotis of the same size. They are definitely a good alternative to the other options available.
If you can handle pros instead, keep your eyes on overseas vendors - especially for the lower grits. There are still sellers in japan who are selling them at decent dollar levels.
I wish I would've gotten into this hobby early enough to get a nice coticule about 8 inches long and 2 1/2+ wide!
I agree with alex - when you start looking at dollars per abrasive MM, they're expensive stones! Not a big deal for them to be that thin if you're only doing a few razors, but the 1k glasstone is pretty soft, and over in the woodworking side of the sharpening world, people wear them out pretty fast.
I don't know if the glasstones are used much in japan, maybe they are, it just always seems like the sellers actually in japan push pro series stones more than glasstones.
If you get rid of it, I'm going to inherit his image on here - having the sword saint of Japan is a most fitting image for this forum! Read Go Rin No Sho :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR
I think my Shapton GS's will outlast me easily. Having a full progression from 1-30k, each stone doesn't get much more than around 15 strokes pr stone, and usually just around 6-7 on the 30k.
Worth it to me... :)
I think the reason for that is that Japanese tool steel is mostly Carbon Steel and the Pros are formulated for it. The GS were formulated to handle western tool needs that include alloys that do not do as well on Pros.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
I know they say that, but the only thing I could figure out between the two (i have and have had some of both) is that the low grit stones like the 1000 of the glasstones are a bit softer. In the upper ranges, a retailer and I were trying to figure out what the difference was on tool steels that weren't high carbon (A2 and M2), and it's not a secret that the shaptons in general do not deal well with woodworking tools at least when the steel is tougher than A2 (they glaze with the filings of whatever is on them). Even on A2, both of them are markedly slower than with carbon steel.
All of the shaptons cut carbon steel at a ridiculously fast rate.
I couldn't really tell the difference with A2, and the M2 was marginally cut on a 15k shapton pro and I couldn't tell if it was cutting at all on a 16k glasstone.
This doesn't necessarily translate to razor use, though, as slow cutting isn't really a big deal if the finish is good. On woodworking tooling where you get small chips and large wear bevels, though, causing you to do a lot of work on the stones, it matters a lot.
Glasstones and pros feel a little different in use, and there may be some difference between the two that I missed because I only side-by-side tested them a couple of times, but I'd say that there are finish stones at least that cut HSS and A2 a lot faster than either of the shapton stones. If they were aiming for the west, they should've made a bigger and thicker stone that was a little more friable. The 1000 glasstone is a bit more friable, but I didn't notice the high grits to be, and they're thin, anyway. The 1000 has to be about the worst $ per unit of work done of any stone around when the work gets heavier than razors, despite it being a fairly pleasant stone to use. I just don't understand what they're thinking when they put 5mm of abrasive on a stone that's generally (for knives and tools) expected to do a whole lot of work to set the table for the stones that polish.
I get the sense (and it's just my opinion, of course) that there is a lot of slop somewhere in the pricing between manufacturing and retail. I don't know where it is, but it seems out of line compared to a lot of other decent stones.
Just all of my opinion, I don't want to start any fights.
I would have to agree with Shaptons 1k and lower(both glass and pro FME), for me too there are better stones and options for the lower grit stones for both razors and non razors.
Since I got my J-market Pro's (Ha No Kuromaku) I don't use DMT's for edge repair on chips etc nor have I used my Glass stones which seem miles slower by comparison..
The pros eat any razor I've honed for breakfast, stainless or carbon. I don't sharpen tools so can't comment there.
Are you going from your 15k (or is it 12k Japanese) to your Jnats? How would you say it compares to the 16k GS? Also, how have you found the 1k pro for bevels, compared to the 1k Chosera if you've used it?
For me the Chosera is miles ahead of the 1K pro. The 2K on the other hand is very sweet..Quote:
Originally Posted by PA23-250
Quote:
Originally Posted by PA23-250
Yes, 12k to Jnats & have also jumped from 5k to Jnat's. Also been using 5k to 12k with no 8k pro. The 12k is plenty fast to make the jump. Don't have the 16kGS only 8kGS. Used to use Suita to Asagi after 8k GS.
1k pro is a killer on stainless or tough carbon razors for bevel set but I usually use the 1.5k on edges that don't need a lot of heavy lifting. For badly pitted & chipped bevels I may even start at the 320grit & always go to 1k from there.
Never bought a Chocera 1k. Tho I was curious, just never felt the need. I only have experience with King 800 &1200 & Shapton 1kGS & Kasumi 1k to compare but as much as I liked the GS, they just sit neglected atm. The 1k J pro is faster & holds it's flatness better than any of the 1k's I've used.
I don't have the 1k pro, but I use the 1k Chosera, and 2k pro a lot, and both are great. I don't have any intention to buy another 1k, but the 320 pro IS tempting. I don't like to use diamond hones for razors, I think I will order one in the near future.
I can't tell who this was to. I have gobs of finish stones, I can't really defend why - curiosity.Quote:
Originally Posted by PA23-250
In terms of practical razor sharpening, I'd say no difference in results for 15k pro vs. 16k glass. Both of them will load a little bit in use, and both work best with the surface refreshed fairly often (which is, I think the case for all shaptons, even the softer low grit glasstones - which are noticeably softer in woodworking, but will still load some with a razor and not release grit that fast - you just don't get enough pressure with razors to get the stones to release stuff.
Some folks might prefer the feel of the 16k glassstone, it could be a tad less sticky than the pro (at least with woodworking tools, it feels like that might be the case), but we are talking about 99 vs 100 in my mind, especially when you start comparing the two to other brands of stones.
I go straight from whatever the polisher is - shapton 15k, chosera 10k, sigma 13k to an antique razor hone that I got from alex (that is incredibly fine) instead of using chromium oxide or anything like that - the shave is more comfortable. Any of those brands of synthetics will easily take a chromium oxide finish to soften the edge and work well without any natural stone intervention. It's just easier for me to stay clean in the upstairs bathroom and keep things clean with a small natural japanese barbers hone.
I don't ever actually use the pro 1k unless i buy a used razor on ebay, so it's been fine for me, as has a bester of similar grit (the bester feels nicer). The key to using the hard stones with a pleasant feel is to refresh the surface peridically with a diamond hone, even when they're not out of flat. They have a better feel like that and cut faster. I like to keep my razors away from powdered and pasted strops and such so that the edge geometry doesn't change and so that a refresher on only the finest stones always keeps them in shape - i've not taken a shaver below any of the above finish stones once it's in shaving shape.
I can't find a great big practical difference for the shaver (as opposed to the habitual razor restorer) in any stones, natural, synthetic (clay, resin, magnesia, ..). Hopefully, the razor only needs to get to that initial point of restoration once, and can be maintained without any serious stoning indefinitely. It takes little more time on a decent razor for me to use all natural stones from the pre-polish up, and I can't tell a difference in the edge in daily shaving after the barber hone hits them.
Exellent explanation on the Pro 15k vs GS 16k. I found the same thing for me, as I have both, too. The GS 16k has the nicer feel, bot I find that for the GS in generall compared to the Pro.
So this comes down to personal preference. I did find one difference though. The polish. If the pre polish on the 8k stage is almost to the point of perfect, with minimum uniform scratches
the Pro 12k/15k will give an amazing polish with incredible clarity. Under the microscope you will look at a complete mirror. The GS 16 tends to leave some uniform scratch marks,
wich kind of is the story with the GS. Still I prefer the GS :)
Are yours the Jp version or the US/Export version? I think I remember reading they're slightly different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingfish
Lesslemming: on the subject of polish before the 12/15k, would you say that the pro 5k gives roughly the same level of refinement as the Norton 8k or would it be a bit too coarse to give a mirror on the 12? When the time comes to buy, I'd like something faster than the Norton for 8k & below & wouldn't mind saving a bit of money on the pros, but if it takes a lot of extra work to get the edge later on, it might be easier to go for the GS instead. I know So recommends them before the natural finisher, so I certainly wouldn't go wrong with them, but I am still very curious about the pros.
Dave
Really good explination above. I was lucky enough to pick up the Shapton 2k mint green Pro when I was in Japan in March, and I really like it. It is super fast and provides a slight slurry even with razor work but especially with tools including kanna blades. I use if for bevel setting my razors and it has never failed me.
I have owned the 30k glass stone for a number of years, they are an amazing piece of technology. I still have 4mm left on it though because my go to stones are all Jnats in that grit range and because of the GS glazing issues. The issue of the high grit GS problems with glazing have been on the burner since early on, and were first talked about on the woodworking forums. As you well know the traditional laminated kanna plane blade is made up of 90% soft iron, that this has been found to really plug up the works and glaze. Shapton set the bar high with the creation of the 30k stone that is for sure. Alx
Alex, I have heard other people say they like the 2k shapton, too, but I have never tried one.
I agree completely about the 30k stone. It is incredibly uniform and very fine while still being very aggressive as long as it's not allowed to load. As soon as it loads, that uniformity goes away. It can be mitigated with water management, touch and refreshing the surface, but a nice natural stone doesn't present the same issues in terms of finishing, and the edge is a lot more comfortable, anyway.
A friend and I played with his 30k stone to try with western woodworking tools to figure out what practicality it had vs. stopping at the 16k glasstone or the 15k pro, and we couldn't see a difference on the surface of the wood. That's obviously entirely different than shaving. I liked the 30k for what it is, but if I were looking to spend that kind of money on another stone (especially for razors), I would be browsing your inventory instead - a comfortable shave of the same fineness would be practically guaranteed.
That soft iron - The ogata swedish I got from you has it - as does another inukubi plane (which usually come with a laser thin lamination) that I purchased for a song from someone stateside who decided they didn't like it. Both of those irons invite sharpening, the kamaji is so compliant on the stones, coming off on the shaptons like strips of jetliner tire rubber on a runway, and abrading fabulously on natural stones to finish. They are an absolute pleasure. I have some other irons that have wrought backing that just isn't as compliant, and while they are good irons, they don't get used as much. It's a shame there isn't a corresponding similar tactile feel in sharpening razors.
Dave I hear where you are coming from, and some users here may have had some of the same issues honing their Nihon Kamisori razors which also have a laminated carbon steel/soft iron (hagane/jigane) configuration loading up the 30k Shapton or other fine grit synthetics. Swarf load in razor honing might be a problem or an issue if you are particular details, but because the surface area on an average kamisori toishi is smaller the impacts of swarf is very similar to that with tools. I have a 5k pale yellow Suehiro that I have replaced over and over again without the blink of an eye when needed because it works so well, but it does load from razors. Sharpening really is a balancing act and we all learn to compromise. Alx