Chinese 12K in Place of Barber Hone

I did a lot of searching to be sure this exact question wasn't already answered. If it was and I didn't find it, please forgive me.

The Chinese 12K seem to get a lot of praise around here. I found out about them while I was in the market for a barber hone. My goal is to be able to maintain my razor myself for as long as possible. I have a vintage Henckels that I had professionally honed. I think it was finished on a coticule. I would like something to do touch-ups with when the razor starts to pull. On the shave-wiki it says that a shave-ready razor can be maintained for years with a finishing hone. That's my goal.

My question is, will this stone do it? Also, they seem to be pretty slow cutters. I've read that with a barber hone, you can do touch-ups with around 10 laps, more or less. Will I have to do more with the Chinese 12K? One last thing. Can I use sand paper to lap it? Thanks!

Welcome to SRP danxaz, I can't see why the Cnat wouldn't be able to do what you are asking of it.
I lapped mine on wet and dry 320 grit sandpaper on a 1/2" glass plate with plenty of water (messy job).
I've since got a DMT 325 and lap (hones :nono:) in the shower.
Have a look at gssixguns 'one stone honing' video on youtube and it will show you the method.
If the bevel is already set (as it should be if you are shaving with it), you should be able to maintain the edge quite well.
As far as the number of laps goes, I go by feel rather than counting laps, and the only way you'll be able to get the feel is to do (perhaps) 10 - 20 then shave test, if it's not quite there another 10 and shave test etc until you get it where you want it to be.
I hope this helps.
Hang on and enjoy the ride.

Well personally I have found a C12K to be too slow to very useful, if you want to keep a razor shaving well a balsa wood strop with chromium oxide on it will do the job well for quite a while with half a dozen laps when it starts to go off the boil.

The C12k can be lapped on wet and dry paper, on a flat surface such as a marble time, it would require a lot more laps than a barbers hone maybe 50 - 150 laps.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...bers-hone.html

Check it out :)

Yes, more laps. That is a god quality for a beginner. Slow means less mistakes per stroke and more time time discern when to stop. I didn't need to lap my 12k. One overlooked point of lapping is to smooth out the stone. A Chinese 12k is like honing on glass.

As an aside, most people advocate 6 strokes on a barber's hone. But, being the only proponent of 10 strokes I appreciate the number you cited.

I maintain all my razors with an 8000 japanese waterstone and a Quangxi 12000. The Quangxi was a bitch to lap flat, but I did it on sandpaper and as Geoff (Havachat) said, it is a messy job. What he hasn't said, is that it is time consuming if you have a bugger of a stone like what I had. Once lapped though, they're easy to maintain. You would be hard pressed to overhone on that 12000.


Mick

If you razor was finished on a coticule and you like the edge, then I would buy a coticule.

I think the c12k (the one from woodcraft) would be fine. I've had less luck with another C12k that I got elsewhere - it's not as smooth, but the one that I got from woodcraft eons ago has been quite good.

if you let the woodcraft-sold version settle in (i.e., don't scuff it all the time to get it to cut fast), then technique and light pressure is not quite so critical, it will polish an edge very well with just about any technique short of high pressure or one where the edge doesn't actually get to the stone.

The times that I've used mine like that, I've gotten a very brightly polished edge, and a good shave straight off the razor with no other pastes or powders. Keeping pastes and powders away from it means that the next time it comes to the stone, it'll hone easily right back to perfect, only removing the little bit of the edge that is actually wear on the razor.

If you want a side to scuff up, you can always use the other side of the stone. The particles are large enough that when they're refreshed, they leave a cloudy edge that's in my opinion, more in the 6k range.

It is a polishing vs. cutting issue. Something coarser like a coticule will cut a little more, but be more sensitive to technique and maybe less convenient to use in my opinion.

If I used pastes and powders, I would probably have an altogether different opinion, because the C12 would cut slowly once settled in, unless you used a scuff/slurry side, and the difference between the slurried side and the side that's been allowed to wear is so drastic that it takes the stone itself a while to remove it's own scratches from the slurry side.

All in all, though, I could easily get by with a PHIG from woodcraft as my only stone if I had to, and spend no more than a minute a week on a razor that was a daily user in shaving shape.

Ok. These are all very helpful posts. Slartibartfast touched on something that I was also curious about. Since my razor was originally finished on a coticule, will I be destroying that edge if I maintain it with a Chinese 12K or a Barber Hone? Will I likely notice a big difference in the way the blade feels? I know this is somewhat subjective. I like the simplicity and convenience of either a barber hone or C12K. Currently I have a Cromox pasted balsa strop that I've used once on the razor when it started to pull a bit. It definitely helped out a lot and maybe even smoothed it out more than it was originally. Although, this may have coincided with just the time when my face was getting used to the Straight Razor so what I percieved as a smoother edge may have just been a tougher face. It would be great if I could use a barber hone or C12K followed by a chromox strop for touch-ups when needed.

Cost is a factor here as well. I can get either a C12K or Barber hone for about $20 where as a coticule will run me much more than that.

Forgot one thing. I have a confession to make. I'm a bit of a germaphobe. Is there anything I have to worry about when it comes to germs on a barber hone? This probably sounds really stupid, I know. I'm pretty sure I can hear all of you scoffing in unison. But really, honestly, the idea of a hone that has been used many times by a barber who used his razor to shave countless faces kinda freaks me out a bit. That's another draw for the C12K. Its "new". That's not to say that I don't appreciate the nostalgic aspect of the barber hone. My razor is a vintage henckels, which undoubtedly shaved a face before but they are easy to sterilize. A porous surface like a hone seems hard to sterilize. Any thoughts?

No germ issues in a non-shared hone. The hone will dry pretty quickly and you'll be good to go each time you use it.

Don't do anything to the hone to sterilize, you may damage the stone matrix.

Some stones, you can boil without any issues (like oilstones), but I don't know if that extends to the PHIG. There are definitely artifical stones that are OK for a soak, but that come apart with heat.

In terms of the edge, a well settled-in chinese hone should leave an edge just as soft as a coticule but finer. It won't be so soft and fine with a slurry, though, thus my comments above about letting the surface stay polished and settled.

I would peg the cost closer to $40+, as the big hone at woodcraft is well worth having over a smaller hone that's less than the width of a razor blade. It makes honing as you would do it with a very slow cutting PHIG a lot easier, esp if you're doing circles, etc, with moderate pressure - it's really not nice to have the razor going over the edge with any pressure.

Maybe this page was shown a million times before I got here, I don't know (and I don't know or know who the page owner is), but it's instructive about what's going on with different stones. Pay particular attention to the smoothness of the edge in these pictures, more so than attention to the polish on the bevel. The two go together somewhat, but the polish on the bevel isn't what's cutting your hair. You can see how the shaptons polish is great, but there are undulations in the edge, which maybe explains why it can be uncomfortable to shave off of some of the synthetics.

http://www.tzknives.com/razorbevels.html

A separate aside, if you're looking for a barber hone, why not buy a barber hone? They were designed to do just what you want to do, anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by danxaz

Forgot one thing. I have a confession to make. I'm a bit of a germaphobe. Is there anything I have to worry about when it comes to germs on a barber hone? This probably sounds really stupid, I know. I'm pretty sure I can hear all of you scoffing in unison. But really, honestly, the idea of a hone that has been used many times by a barber who used his razor to shave countless faces kinda freaks me out a bit. That's another draw for the C12K. Its "new". That's not to say that I don't appreciate the nostalgic aspect of the barber hone. My razor is a vintage henckels, which undoubtedly shaved a face before but they are easy to sterilize. A porous surface like a hone seems hard to sterilize. Any thoughts?

---

A tablespoon of Chlorox per gal of water will dissinfect just about anything. Most barber hones should be safe but test on small spot first.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by danxaz

Any thoughts?

---

Fearing germs on a hone is 100% irrational, don't worry.

Hello...
The hone first, I would say a 10k naniwa would be hard to beat as a finishing hone, though a 12k chinese is a good budget option. The jump from a 1k stone to a coti is very big and it would take a long time to polish the edge clear of the marks left by the 1k. If you have dinged the blade or otherwise blunted it my advice is get it sorted by a pro honer and then use a 10k/12k as mentioned above to maintain it.

Cheers!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by danxaz

Forgot one thing. I have a confession to make. I'm a bit of a germaphobe. Is there anything I have to worry about when it comes to germs on a barber hone? This probably sounds really stupid, I know. I'm pretty sure I can hear all of you scoffing in unison. But really, honestly, the idea of a hone that has been used many times by a barber who used his razor to shave countless faces kinda freaks me out a bit. That's another draw for the C12K. Its "new". That's not to say that I don't appreciate the nostalgic aspect of the barber hone. My razor is a vintage henckels, which undoubtedly shaved a face before but they are easy to sterilize. A porous surface like a hone seems hard to sterilize. Any thoughts?

---

THAT is a good question. Most bacteria range in size from 0.2 to 2 microns wide and 1 to 10 microns in length.
Very small. Pores in most natural stones are going to be much larger than that. digging around on the web I found a LOT of articles on stone porosity and bacterial infiltration, it seems like a well-studied subject.

This article on Natural Stone Tiles is interesting: Natural Stone Tiles – The Confusion Surrounding Sealing | Las Vegas Asphalt & Striping 702-353-0026

Just type in "natural stone pore size" and have at it.

This is interesting to ME as a physician because I deal with pathogens on a daily basis, and the end result of people's interactions with them keeps me pretty busy. How do you sterilize surfaces? Chlorine works well in weak solutions, but may play hell on the stone's surface.

Heat. Just cook the things at or above 180 degrees, it's what we're told is required to safely cook pathogens out of meat. We sterilize instruments under pressure with steam heat in autoclaves (Autoclave - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) at about 250 F for 15-20 minutes. Not too hard to do at home, and
stones of most every type can tolerate this kind of heat and moisture, especially ceramics.

Hope this helps.