Thread: Honing questions.

Originally Posted by Pithor

I'm sorry, but I have to strongly disagree with you and Shooter74743, mainly on the part I highlighted in bold. I can't imagine how learning to hone on synthetics will prepare you for honing on naturals. Maybe you'll learn the proper strokes. Maybe you'll learn what a good bevel is. Maybe you'll notice after one hundred tries that you progressed from one grit to the next too early, and you cannot get a decent shaving edge. ......
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Just don't start with synthetics just because "that's how everyone started and it works." It's not, I didn't start with them and that works too.

While you make some good points, and many a wet-shaver has indeed started on naturals with good results, there's good arguments to be made for starting with synthetics.

The main one being that a synthetic is a known entity.
That means you can quite easily follow the lead of what others have done before you.
10 laps on a Norton 4K is just that. 10 laps on a JNat or a Coticule could be anything from a lot to very little. It all depends on the stone.
And from a guiding new honers point of view, that kinda complicate things.

The pyramid honing is but one example of this, and that has helped out tons of new guys getting a shaveable edge.
The JaNorton thread around here was also rather a good example of this. Many ways and tecniques to test out, with a stone that was the same to all participants.

I know there are similar examples out there from the natural stone lovers (me being one of them), but they aren't as easily repeated with success as many would like to think for a newbie, be that Dilucote or Nagura progressions with fancy names.

We all know that with practice there are tons of ways, and tools, to hone a razor properly, but from my point of view, the synth start seems the easiest one. Not the only one, just the easiest one.

My argument for recommending to learn on synthetics before moving to naturals is that synthetics is more uniform in how they work and perform opposed to naturals where two stones are not alike, I believe this will make it easier to learn the basics, as the expereinced honers know aprox how many strokes neede after bevel set which can be a good help when learning.

With that said I did jump in with both feet myself and tried to learn on both Naniwa SS and Coticule at the same time, it went rather well, but it took me quite a few razors more on the coti before I started getting things right.

Edit: B beat me to it and said it in a much better way, that's how it goes when you go away in the middle of a reply

I have to add a bit to the comments above. I have a coti/BBW stone and I love it. However, starting out here n Canada, the Combo stone, or even just the Coti is somewhere around double or triple the price of a Norton 4/8 combo stone, if you want anywhere near the same size. I picked up a standard grade 6" x 1.5 and I paid around $90 +/-. That was a few years ago as well, they have gone up since. The Norton is 3" x 8" I believe is $79 here at Lee Valley Tools. To get anything close to that size now in a natural combo, you're paying over $200 at least. Now I understand that as a beginner, you can learn to do the X stroke on a smaller stone, but that adds to the learning curve and adds variables that are difficult to help with when giving advice, as well as the points above regarding the unknown grit of each stone.

That's just my thoughts. I just wish I had saved money and stuck with the known, as opposed to buying a coti/BBW combo and a Chinese natural, not being happy with the results and ending up getting a Norton 4/8 anyway. I'm getting great edges off the naturals now, but it took a lot longer to get there.

DISCLAIMER: If you don't read long posts, you may skip this. But I hope you have an attention span longer than five minutes and that you don't skip it.

To the OP:

Chris, If I had to recommend something, I would advise to get a coticule bout, standard grade of approx. 5x15cm and start doing unicot as specified here (or some variation on that). But that's only because it's what I did, it's as good a start as any. Ardennes-coticule being in Belgium, I think you can get something nice for a very affordable price, just send an e-mail through the website asking for the availability of razor hones, they are very helpful. This is if you're interest of course. Please don't take my word for gospel, as I know next to nothing , but at least I'm aware of that.

You want to get a low grit (220 or something around that) for really rough work if you plan to restore severely damaged edges, and maybe a 1000 grit synthetic for bevel repair/(re-)establishing, although I never used one and mainly use a rather dense slurry on the coticule for that.

Now for my elaborate discussion input (I think it is justified and on-topic, as the OP (Chris) is asking about the 'must-haveness' of certain hones):

First let me make it clear I'm not arguing against starting with synthetics. I think synthetic set-ups are a bit on the pricey side (some edging towards ridiculous expensive), but so are naturals (some Japanese naturals go for plenty, too), especially when someone starts a collection -unlike me, I only have two coticules and the hardware store dual stone. But anyway.

I can also indeed think of some advantages to starting with synthetics. They are pretty much uniform, have clear grit determinations so a clear progression can be devised. They are readily available from many different places, e.g. woodworking shops and there’s loads of info available on here.

Which is why I said what I said. Threads on synthetic hones outnumber the threads on natural hones by far. At times it even seems that new honers are intimidated by naturals, that they are something for the experienced, that you need a certain number of ‘synthetic honing hours’ to be allowed your ‘natural honing license’. I hope you’ll allow me my slight hyperbole and dramatics, as I am trying to illustrate a point.

I can also think of down sides to honing on synthetics. For knowing when to change grits effectively you have to 'read the scratch patterns' with a 30x loupe; or trust such things as the honing pyramid, but if it were me, I’d like to know the when and why myself.

They are all uniform and well documented, meaning that there’s hardly any exploration in it anymore, it is very predictable the globe all over. In that sense naturals are all different, yes, but e.g. coticules (just because that’s what I know) in general are predictable enough to set-up broad guidelines in which there are possible variations that the user may have to (or want to) explore.

Which again brings me to Cove5440’s post.

Originally Posted by Cove5440

I have to add a bit to the comments above. I have a coti/BBW stone and I love it. […] That's just my thoughts. I just wish I had saved money and stuck with the known, as opposed to buying a coti/BBW combo and a Chinese natural, not being happy with the results and ending up getting a Norton 4/8 anyway. I'm getting great edges off the naturals now, but it took a lot longer to get there.

Let me start off by saying I’m a bit confused about your post. First you mention that you have a combination coticule and you love it. But then at the end you said you wish you hadn’t bought it because of the steep learning curve (which apparently you mastered). You mean you didn’t like learning the skill of honing on a coticule?

I’ve been doing this for a year and I’ve been getting good results (from the start when I was just mucking about) on two different coticules. But I’m not saying I’ve got this natural thing down, my consistency can improve but mainly my standard result i.e. keenness can improve. I do however get pretty good shaving edges and I’ve enjoyed getting frustrated from time to time, if you get my drift.

Originally Posted by Cove5440

However, starting out here n Canada, the Combo stone, or even just the Coti is somewhere around double or triple the price of a Norton 4/8 combo stone, if you want anywhere near the same size. I picked up a standard grade 6" x 1.5 and I paid around $90 +/-. That was a few years ago as well, they have gone up since. The Norton is 3" x 8" I believe is $79 here at Lee Valley Tools. To get anything close to that size now in a natural combo, you're paying over $200 at least. Now I understand that as a beginner, you can learn to do the X stroke on a smaller stone, but that adds to the learning curve and adds variables that are difficult to help with when giving advice, as well as the points above regarding the unknown grit of each stone.

About the size. My first coticule also was a standard grade, sized 1.5x4” or ~4.5x10cm. It was a natural combination La Veinette bout. Within Europe, I still paid €54,10 or US$71.40 for that. Indeed, a bit longer would have been better, but 8x3” or around 20x7.5cm, now that’s just (in my opinion) unnecessarily huge. 5x15cm is plenty, up from that it’s just luxury (less strokes, looks more impressive).

And I also don’t understand the X-stroke allergy that seems to be going around in the straight shaving community; 3” strops, 3” wide hones; it’s really not that difficult, you get used to it pretty fast and I find it easier to have the edge touch the hone evenly when using an X-stroke (although I do use back and forth strokes for details instead of complete strokes).

When you start with an X-stroke, you need to pay a lot attention to your edge touching the hone, which is a steeper learning curve than with a back-and-forth stroke, but there’s no room for laziness and messing it up is evident, maybe much more so than when you do back-and-forth strokes; they seem easier, but actually require the same eye for detail.

And of course (big) stones cut to size are more expensive; they’re harder to come by. For good value, try to get a decent sized, properly shaped bout. Comparing a coticule to a Norton 4000/8000 is a bit of a hit and miss in my opinion, coticules are a bit more versatile and with a bit of work are pretty much a complete honing set up. The Norton 4000/8000 just is not, or at least not in a comparable way.

I think you got a great price for an ideally sized stone. An entire Naniwa Super Stone set-up will cost you around US$300, after which at some point you will probably need a finer finisher, so either a natural, be it coticule, Japanese, Thüringian or synthetic. This will cost you something varying from let’s say US$45 to however much you are willing to spend. A Shapton Glass 30,000 is US$350, you can get a pretty awesome variety of naturals for that kind of money. The Shapton 16,000 is already US$130. I don’t buy the ‘naturals are much more expensive tan synthetics’ argument, sorry. If anything it would be the other way around, but there are too many variables to take into account (such as €600 Japanese naturals) and it all depends what you are willing to pay.

So again, I want to make it clear that I am not arguing in favour of either synthetic or naturals, although admittedly I myself favour naturals. It’s the only hones I use, so forgive me for the subjectivity on that. I just have to get it off my chest, so please forgive me for the following [blatant coticule promotion rant] I like having pretty much a one-stone set-up for €55, which is not at all as mysterious as some people try to make it. Most coticules work in the same way; they just don't follow the same stroke-count, but you have to look for pretty much the same indicators. And standard makes absolutely no difference; select hones are just more uniform in colour. And more expensive because they are rarer.[/blatant coticule promotion]

All I really want to say with this post is that you can get both a good natural set-up and a good synthetic set-up for prices varying from affordable to ridiculously expensive. It’s about the size of your wallet, ego and preference. It's not going to be easy either way.

Best regards,

Pieter

Originally Posted by Pithor

DISCLAIMER: If you don't read long posts, you may skip this. But I hope you have an attention span longer than five minutes and that you don't skip it.

Oh, long posts are the most interesting

Originally Posted by Pithor

To the OP:

Chris, If I had to recommend something, I would advise to get a coticule bout, standard grade of approx. 5x15cm and start doing unicot as specified here (or some variation on that). But that's only because it's what I did, it's as good a start as any.

See, this is where I tend to disagree with you.
It is a start, and surely it has worked for thousands of other throughout the years.
Yet I claim it is not as good as any, (for a newcomer) because the learning curve and the available help is not on level with say a Norton 4/8. IMHO.
We will not agree on this, and I'm not out to disrespect you or the Coticule as a hone, it's just that my experiences are different from yours.

Originally Posted by Pithor

Ardennes-coticule being in Belgium, I think you can get something nice for a very affordable price, just send an e-mail through the website asking for the availability of razor hones, they are very helpful. This is if you're interest of course. Please don't take my word for gospel, as I know next to nothing , but at least I'm aware of that.

Oh, he who claims to preach the Gospel in this sport pretty much proves he doesn't.
There are many ways to a shave ready edge, I sure don't know but a fraction of them

Originally Posted by Pithor

You want to get a low grit (220 or something around that) for really rough work if you plan to restore severely damaged edges, and maybe a 1000 grit synthetic for bevel repair/(re-)establishing, although I never used one and mainly use a rather dense slurry on the coticule for that.

Originally Posted by Pithor

You know, I have been honing all kinds of ebay specials that I have bought these past couple of years, and have yet to use anything coarser than a 500 Grit stone. And to be honest, I rarely go below 1000.

Originally Posted by Pithor

Snip...
First let me make it clear I'm not arguing against starting with synthetics. I think synthetic set-ups are a bit on the pricey side (some edging towards ridiculous expensive), but so are naturals (some Japanese naturals go for plenty, too), especially when someone starts a collection -unlike me, I only have two coticules and the hardware store dual stone. But anyway.

I can also indeed think of some advantages to starting with synthetics. They are pretty much uniform, have clear grit determinations so a clear progression can be devised. They are readily available from many different places, e.g. woodworking shops and there’s loads of info available on here.

Yep, that is indeed the upside for a novice honer, and quite an important aspect it is too. IMHO.

Originally Posted by Pithor

Which is why I said what I said. Threads on synthetic hones outnumber the threads on natural hones by far. At times it even seems that new honers are intimidated by naturals, that they are something for the experienced, that you need a certain number of ‘synthetic honing hours’ to be allowed your ‘natural honing license’. I hope you’ll allow me my slight hyperbole and dramatics, as I am trying to illustrate a point.

Again, some very good observations, and I think you are right. A lot of people are intimidated by the naturals.
There really is no reason for that, but they are easier to work on with a bit of a base of experience grinding steel away to sharpen a razor.

Originally Posted by Pithor

I can also think of down sides to honing on synthetics. For knowing when to change grits effectively you have to 'read the scratch patterns' with a 30x loupe; or trust such things as the honing pyramid, but if it were me, I’d like to know the when and why myself.

I'm afraid I don't quite see what you mean here.
A loupe is a fine tool for assessing the progress, I use that when honing on all kinds of stones, be it a Coticule, A JNat, an Escher or any synthetic stone.
That does not mean one doesn't know what and why, it is simply yet another tool much like the various tests of variable quality out there.
The feedback off of a synthetic stone is every bit as easy to read as with a natural.
Well, at least with the ones I have
The Unicot or the Dilucot is pretty much the same thing as a pyramid or any other regimen out there, it is something to help you in your honing progression to reach the goal we all share. A shave ready edge.

Originally Posted by Pithor

They are all uniform and well documented, meaning that there’s hardly any exploration in it anymore, it is very predictable the globe all over. In that sense naturals are all different, yes, but e.g. coticules (just because that’s what I know) in general are predictable enough to set-up broad guidelines in which there are possible variations that the user may have to (or want to) explore.

....Snip

Best regards,

Pieter

Here we are at the crux of the matter in my opinion, and where we seem to see things differently.
For a new honer I maintain the view of going the easiest possible route, God knows this sport is filled with enough hurdles to jump before reaching acceptable levels in one's daily enjoyment of a good shave.

Now, don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the Coticule, so this is by no means an attempt to talk them down.
I have other stones and systems I think are even better, but that is just preference.
What we do agree upon, it seems, is the enjoyment of exploring the how-to's of a hone, reaching the very best results from them.

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Pithor, don't worry, I didn't get offended by your post. I like when there are posts about the pros and cons of doing one thing or another.

To clarify my love for the coticule, it's been a long and frustrating journey for me. It is slow, compared to most of the posts and videos, or at least that's what I thought. I couldn't get a good edge off of it and almost gave up, before buying the Norton. I don't know if I was diluting the slurry too fast or just not spending enough time on it before but I just couldn't get it to work. Now I've realized, for me, fast half strokes work best with this stone. I'm still not great with it, but some tips recently from a member on here helped.

On the flip side, it only took me twice on the Norton to get a good edge, following advice on here. That's why I recommend the Norton or similar for beginners. As has been shown by other recent threads, you don't "NEED" a full set of stones. A 4/8 is perfect to start and after you can decide if you want to get into natural stones or stick with synthetic.

As far as comparing the two, I agree, you can't lump them in the same bucket. But each Natural stone is different. The number of strokes you use may be half what I do, so trying to help someone isn't as easy as just saying 20 x strokes will get you where you want to go. ( just using that number as an example)


Ps I had my coticule for over a year before getting the Norton.
Anyway, I'm getting off of what I wanted to do, which was only to clarify MY experience.

I have worked on and off again for about two years now, half a dozen coticules, and have yet to get a razor as sharp as my normal set-up of Shapton Ceramics followed by Escher. My last effort will involve finishing on oil. We will see.

Birnando, Cove, thanks for the replies.

The scratch patter comment just goes to show that I have never used synthetics. I worked on assumption, which is of course not the best way to discuss things.

But anyway, I think we just fundamentally disagree on the degree of the learning curve.

Although I must say I'm also still not so sure about how easy it is to learn to properly hone on sythetic hones; also because - again I assume but I find this one pretty safe and it makes sense to me - that synthetic hones differ between series and manufacturers. I can only guess to which degree, but it goes to show that synthetic hones are not all the same, and that different hones require different approaches. Maybe they even differ from each other to the same degree as one coticule differs from another.

Originally Posted by Birnando

...[natural hones] are easier to work on with a bit of a base of experience grinding steel away to sharpen a razor.

This I also do not understand. How does honing on a synthetic hone provide you with anything that will help you on a natural hone that you wouldn't also learn when starting on the natural hone? Aha, wait, do you mean that on synthetics you can succeed in sharpening a razor with only some aspects that would be required to get a shave-ready razor off a natural hone? Such as honing strokes and recognising a bevel? Then I do see your point that learning on a synthetic would be easier, but as I have never honed on a synthetic, I can say nothing but that I am still skeptic about it being so much easier. Maybe it's just because, on SRP, synthetics are extremely well documented.

So indeed I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. But I thought this needed to be said. I still feel that naturals are as good a start as any, may the learning curve to get awesome edges be slightly bigger. It is however possible to get a serviceable edge pretty damn fast after starting on one. I bet if you start honing and straight shaving at the same time (of course not with the same blade) you might actualy get consistent really good edges before you get those really awesome shaves everyone always talks about.


And Shooter74743, shaving sharpness for me is not about getting an edge as sharp as humanly possible. If you could get en edge so sharp you could split atoms with it, I doubt it would be a pleasure to shave with. But really it's about what you prefer and what your skin allows. But I'm glad to hear you're happy with your Shaptons, I never doubted they were quality made hones to get stuff really sharp.

@ Gssixgun: thanks for your extensive advice here. Did you have any particular reason for not mentioning cubic boron nitride? I like it very much for daily use. Since I started using it my hones have seen much less use. A good thing unless you have a honing addiction disorder.

So you like cubic boron nitride. Awesome. Where do you get it? Does it come in powder or paste? How is it applied? How many strokes do you use with it. What makes it different than other available media? How many razors have you been using it on at what intervals?

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Kees

@ Gssixgun: thanks for your extensive advice here. Did you have any particular reason for not mentioning cubic boron nitride? I like it very much for daily use. Since I started using it my hones have seen much less use. A good thing unless you have a honing addiction disorder.