Honing questions.

Hi guys I am looking to start doing my own honing, I have been sending my razors away but came to the conclusion that I should really start doing my own.
The only problem is I have a few questions if you could help:-
1,what grits should I have? Is there a few "must have's"
2, is the norton stones the best out there and nothing else will do or is it personal preference? I have seen some welsh and Japanese stones for good prices.
3, would you recommend getting some razors to practice on rather my best ones?

Thanks guys

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Originally Posted by sweeneychris

Hi guys I am looking to start doing my own honing, I have been sending my razors away but came to the conclusion that I should really start doing my own.
The only problem is I have a few questions if you could help:-
1,what grits should I have? Is there a few "must have's"

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Standard starting set up is Norton 1k, 4/8k, CrO or Diamond spray on linen/felt/leather.
As far as must have obviously 1k for bevel setting , then 3 or 5k , and an 8k. You can add higher grits if you want later when you learn how to get the best out of the 8k stone.

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2, is the norton stones the best out there and nothing else will do or is it personal preference? I have seen some welsh and Japanese stones for good prices.

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There is no best stone set up. There are a bunch very well tested systems that all work well if you know what you are doing. Norton is a one of those systems, there is also Super stones by Naninwa, and Shapton Glass. Do not jump into naturals just yet, you need to learn to set bevels, then get the best out of your synthetic progression before you can get any benefit from a natural. When you decide to get a natural stone you need to do a very good research of what stones are going to work and what are not. Some naturals will refine 8k synthetic edge some will not. Buying Jnats from unknown sellers usually results in buying stone that is good for door stop only. If you want a quality Jnat get it from a reputable seller.

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3, would you recommend getting some razors to practice on rather my best ones?

Thanks guys

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I'd use practice razor to learn honing.

Totally agree with Mainaman. Synthetics, like Norton are the easiest to understand when you're starting out. The only thing I'd add is a DMT plate for lapping the hones. Most, if not all stones need to be lapped even before you start. So that would be one of the first purchases I'd do, with a Norton 4/8. That's if you're honing your own razors. Once you start getting some off ebay or non shave ready, then get the 1K, but depending on you, this can last until one of your last steps before you get into other systems.

The Cro and/or Diamond spray will help you avoid getting a finishing stone for a while.

It's all very personal, but this is the easiest way to get into honing your own razors. It also avoids spending a ton of money right away, in my opinion.

Now please take all this with a grain of salt. I'm not saying I'm a pro. Just what I've experienced and what I've read. I wish I would have listened to this when I started buying hones. I bought too many and not the right ones for the time and almost gave up.

The more recent version for you



Some thoughts on honing razors..

Aspiring honers are often not clear about what they are trying to accomplish when it comes to honing razors. In particular, they are often unsure of what they are doing and how often they should be doing it. Some questions you might want to answer for yourself before you start buying hones: this also means that if you are not sure of the answer here, you should shave more, and wait to buy hones until you can answer these questions.... I normally recommend 6 months of shaving before even thinking about honing

■ Are you an "end-user"; someone who only hones a previously shave-ready blade back to shave-ready?
■ Are you a hobbyist who is chasing the absolute finest edge that may be obtained where money is no object?
■ Are you a frugal shaver who is after the cheapest way to complete your morning shave?
■ Are you a collector who needs to take E-bay specials from butt-ugly to shave-ready?
■ Are you a Honemiester; someone who gets paid to do all of these things for others?
■ Are you a razor restorer who needs to take damaged blades and bring them back to life and shave-readiness?

Each of these types of honer profiles have different requirements for the stones they will own. Theoretically, you can survive using the "one stone" approach, but each razor does have an optimum stone set - and more importantly, a technique for using the required hones. So generally, when somebody asks what stone or how to use what stone, the question to ask them is: "What are you trying to accomplish with the stone(S)?"

Refreshing vs. Starting from Scratch:

The types of hones required depends first and foremost on the type of honing you want to do.

Hones needed for refreshing a dull blade:

If the only task you want to perform is refreshing edges that have previously been established by a Honemiester (the process is often referred to as "touching up"), you need only get a fine grit finishing stone or a barber's hone for this. Either of these hones can be used to keep your razor(s) shave-ready for years.

Hones needed for restoring razors:

If you want to set a bevel, or have many different types of razors, you will need a full set of hones.


A bevel setting stone approximately 1k

DMT's 325 600 1200, Shapton 500, 1K and 2K, Coticules with slurry, Norton 1k, Naniwa 1k, King 1k Chosera 1k

A sharpening stone approximately 4k

Norton 4K, Shapton 4K Naniwa 3k or 5k, Belgian Blue with slurry, Coticule with slurry, King 4k or 6k Tam o Shanter, Dragon's Tongue

A polishing stone approximately 8k

Norton 8k, Shapton 8k, Naniwa 8k, Yellow Coticule, Water of Ayre, Some of the Japanese Naturals

A finishing stone 10k and above (this is often subject to debate, however)

Shapton GS 16k-30k Shapton 15k Naniwa SS 10k-12k or Chosera 10k, Thuringens, Escher's, Many different natural Japanese finishers, Charlney Forest, Extra Fine Coticule, even some of the Arkansas stones...

You have several choices of how to accomplish this setup whether you use natural, man-made stone, or a Diamond-style stone, even honing films, but you are going to have to be able to cover those 4 grit ranges. There really is no true shortcut here if you expect to take razors acquired in need of restoration from butter knife dull (or damaged) to shaving sharp: You are going to end up needing these types of stones.


Pastes can be used after the hones and before the final stropping also these can be used for re-freshing the edge before going back to the hones for a touch-up... Some shavers even use pastes to "sharpen" the razor after the bevel set has been done...

A few different types

Dovo Pastes:

Green 5-8 micron
Red 3-5 micron
Black 1-3 micron
Dovo pastes are a much more mild cutter then say a diamond paste of the same micron size...

Diamond Paste:

From 3 micron down to actually .10 micron if you really wanted to...
These pastes are fast and many people use them incorrectly and manage too get a harsh edge, when used correctly and on the right razor steel these will most likely be the sharpest edge you will ever feel...

Diamond sprays:

Mostly found in 1.0 .50 and .25 micron watch the Carat content here, the higher the better (SRD has the best I have found and yes Lynn and Don are friends of mine, but heck it is still the best spray I have found)

Chromium Oxide Paste/Powder .50 micron (CrOx)
Probably the most universal of the pastes, get the most pure you can find, and no the bars at Woodcrafters are not pure...

Cerium Oxide Paste/Powder (approx).25 micron (CeOx)

Super fine, super soft, and super smooth, polishing media...The bar at Woodcrafter's is of unknown quality at this time

Other Pastes and Powders:

Iron Oxide
Aluminum Oxide

Both of these can also be used again be very careful when buying this stuff as the purity and the micron sizes are very important...

Carbon blacking/lamp black:

This might be the oldest of all the sharpening "pastes" when used on a leather strop it increases draw

Wood Ash:

Another old fashioned one very slightly abrasive when used on Linen strops and Leather strops..

White chalk:

Can be rubbed on a linen strop to increase the abrasive qualities

Newspaper:

The ink itself is a very fine abrasive and so is the paper..

Keep in mind that different razor steels like/dislike different pastes, and the different media that is used to apply it including Balsa, Linen, Leather (paddle) Leather (hanger) and Felt paddle and hanger all give different results on different razor steels....


The above are only my personal opinions and observations... There are no set rules in Razordom

The above version does not have many of the newest hones that we are just seeing either like the Welsh slates that are just now being put through the tests. Most favorable with those, some negative, but understand that there isn't any Natural stone that has all favorable comments...


Depending on what your goals are with honing determines what stones/hone you should look at...

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Originally Posted by sweeneychris

Hi guys I am looking to start doing my own honing, I have been sending my razors away but came to the conclusion that I should really start doing my own.
The only problem is I have a few questions if you could help:-
1,what grits should I have? Is there a few "must have's"
Start with a known synthetic: Naniwa 3/8K or Norton 4/8K & if you need to set the bevel a 1K from either. Shaptons are awesome & pretty much all I use, but not what I personally would recommend to a person learning to hone, as they could be a bit tougher to learn.
2, is the norton stones the best out there and nothing else will do or is it personal preference? I have seen some welsh and Japanese stones for good prices.Again, please stay with synthetics to learn as your first stones. Naniwa or Norton's are on par with one another IMO.
3, would you recommend getting some razors to practice on rather my best ones? Learning to "touch-up" a razor should be step 1. Hone with electrical tape every time. I wouldn't recommend learning to hone on a custom razor, but you need to learn on a razor that has good steel in it is very important too...you don't know how to identify a bad razor right now...that will come after you have some experience with honing.

Thanks guys

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I hope this helps...

MY recommendation for new honers is to have the following:

A) 1K stone, DMT1200, Naniwa 1K or Shapton glass 1K - This is for setting bevels on messed up old razors if you wanna buy EBAY junkers and practice bevel setting

B) Norton 4/8K which is pretty much the best work horse out there. You can sharpen a dull razor on 4 side and finish on the 8 side. Awesome hone.

c) A finishing stone, naniwa 10K, Coticule, etc. You can also use these as a touch up stone if that's all you need to do.

thanks guys there is some really great info here and a lot for me to look at! thanks for taking the time to reply.
gssixgun i am going to be using them to keep a good edge on my own razor and then later on look at buying razors to do up.

thanks again guys

I can but reiterate what has been said, my best set up is a DMT 8" x 3", 325grit stone for leveling, and 2 combination stones, Norton 220/1K for edge repair and bevel setting, and the 4K/8K for polishing, at that point you should get a decent shavable edge, but if you like, Crox from Hand American will refine the edge, their are others mentioned above and they are all good recomendations, but head this, the best policy when starting out with the honing bug is Keep It Simple!
By the way, nice avatar, I like it lots!!!!

Sincerely, tinkersd

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Originally Posted by mainaman

[...] As far as must have obviously 1k for bevel setting , then 3 or 5k , and an 8k. You can add higher grits if you want later when you learn how to get the best out of the 8k stone. [...] Do not jump into naturals just yet, you need to learn to set bevels, then get the best out of your synthetic progression before you can get any benefit from a natural. When you decide to get a natural stone you need to do a very good research of what stones are going to work and what are not. Some naturals will refine 8k synthetic edge some will not. Buying Jnats from unknown sellers usually results in buying stone that is good for door stop only. If you want a quality Jnat get it from a reputable seller.


I'd use practice razor to learn honing.

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I'm sorry, but I have to strongly disagree with you and Shooter74743, mainly on the part I highlighted in bold. I can't imagine how learning to hone on synthetics will prepare you for honing on naturals. Maybe you'll learn the proper strokes. Maybe you'll learn what a good bevel is. Maybe you'll notice after one hundred tries that you progressed from one grit to the next too early, and you cannot get a decent shaving edge.

I started with a rough, dual, standard hardware-store sharpening stone of unknown grit for getting rid of severe edge damage (which meant breadknifing, mostly) and a 4,5x10cm. coticule combination hone (yellow and blue) for bevel (re-)establishing up to finishing. I got decent results from the start. Of course I had problems as well, but I learned and improved my strokes, learned to recognise what a good bevel is and noticed after a hundred tries (poetic hyperbole) that I was diluting too fast, not using enough water, etc. I don't see how starting on synthetic hones would have shortened that learning curve.

Hell, I even managed to hone out some pretty aweful chipping on a coticule, both yellow and blue side. It took a bit longer than on my rough, unknown grit hardware-store special (not even that much longer as I expected, though) but it worked.

I think it's more about what you prefer, as in: what does your gut say. If your gut says "Synthetics are totally awesome," use synthetics. If your gut says "Naturals are totally awesome", use naturals.

Read up on naturals, read up on synthetics and make a decision based on their qualities and your gut instinct. You can mix them up as well, whatever floats your boat; the way I see it it's more about deciding what works for you than trying to find out what works for you, there are so many options that work.

Just don't start with synthetics just because "that's how everyone started and it works." It's not, I didn't start with them and that works too.

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Originally Posted by Pithor

I'm sorry, but I have to strongly disagree with you and Shooter74743, mainly on the part I highlighted in bold. I can't imagine how learning to hone on synthetics will prepare you for honing on naturals. Maybe you'll learn the proper strokes. Maybe you'll learn what a good bevel is. Maybe you'll notice after one hundred tries that you progressed from one grit to the next too early, and you cannot get a decent shaving edge. ......
Snip
......
Just don't start with synthetics just because "that's how everyone started and it works." It's not, I didn't start with them and that works too.

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While you make some good points, and many a wet-shaver has indeed started on naturals with good results, there's good arguments to be made for starting with synthetics.

The main one being that a synthetic is a known entity.
That means you can quite easily follow the lead of what others have done before you.
10 laps on a Norton 4K is just that. 10 laps on a JNat or a Coticule could be anything from a lot to very little. It all depends on the stone.
And from a guiding new honers point of view, that kinda complicate things.

The pyramid honing is but one example of this, and that has helped out tons of new guys getting a shaveable edge.
The JaNorton thread around here was also rather a good example of this. Many ways and tecniques to test out, with a stone that was the same to all participants.

I know there are similar examples out there from the natural stone lovers (me being one of them), but they aren't as easily repeated with success as many would like to think for a newbie, be that Dilucote or Nagura progressions with fancy names.

We all know that with practice there are tons of ways, and tools, to hone a razor properly, but from my point of view, the synth start seems the easiest one. Not the only one, just the easiest one.

My argument for recommending to learn on synthetics before moving to naturals is that synthetics is more uniform in how they work and perform opposed to naturals where two stones are not alike, I believe this will make it easier to learn the basics, as the expereinced honers know aprox how many strokes neede after bevel set which can be a good help when learning.

With that said I did jump in with both feet myself and tried to learn on both Naniwa SS and Coticule at the same time, it went rather well, but it took me quite a few razors more on the coti before I started getting things right.

Edit: B beat me to it and said it in a much better way, that's how it goes when you go away in the middle of a reply :)

I have to add a bit to the comments above. I have a coti/BBW stone and I love it. However, starting out here n Canada, the Combo stone, or even just the Coti is somewhere around double or triple the price of a Norton 4/8 combo stone, if you want anywhere near the same size. I picked up a standard grade 6" x 1.5 and I paid around $90 +/-. That was a few years ago as well, they have gone up since. The Norton is 3" x 8" I believe is $79 here at Lee Valley Tools. To get anything close to that size now in a natural combo, you're paying over $200 at least. Now I understand that as a beginner, you can learn to do the X stroke on a smaller stone, but that adds to the learning curve and adds variables that are difficult to help with when giving advice, as well as the points above regarding the unknown grit of each stone.

That's just my thoughts. I just wish I had saved money and stuck with the known, as opposed to buying a coti/BBW combo and a Chinese natural, not being happy with the results and ending up getting a Norton 4/8 anyway. I'm getting great edges off the naturals now, but it took a lot longer to get there.

DISCLAIMER: If you don't read long posts, you may skip this. But I hope you have an attention span longer than five minutes and that you don't skip it.

To the OP:

Chris, If I had to recommend something, I would advise to get a coticule bout, standard grade of approx. 5x15cm and start doing unicot as specified here (or some variation on that). But that's only because it's what I did, it's as good a start as any. Ardennes-coticule being in Belgium, I think you can get something nice for a very affordable price, just send an e-mail through the website asking for the availability of razor hones, they are very helpful. This is if you're interest of course. Please don't take my word for gospel, as I know next to nothing :p, but at least I'm aware of that.

You want to get a low grit (220 or something around that) for really rough work if you plan to restore severely damaged edges, and maybe a 1000 grit synthetic for bevel repair/(re-)establishing, although I never used one and mainly use a rather dense slurry on the coticule for that.

Now for my elaborate discussion input (I think it is justified and on-topic, as the OP (Chris) is asking about the 'must-haveness' of certain hones):

First let me make it clear I'm not arguing against starting with synthetics. I think synthetic set-ups are a bit on the pricey side (some edging towards ridiculous expensive), but so are naturals (some Japanese naturals go for plenty, too), especially when someone starts a collection -unlike me, I only have two coticules and the hardware store dual stone. But anyway.

I can also indeed think of some advantages to starting with synthetics. They are pretty much uniform, have clear grit determinations so a clear progression can be devised. They are readily available from many different places, e.g. woodworking shops and there’s loads of info available on here.

Which is why I said what I said. Threads on synthetic hones outnumber the threads on natural hones by far. At times it even seems that new honers are intimidated by naturals, that they are something for the experienced, that you need a certain number of ‘synthetic honing hours’ to be allowed your ‘natural honing license’. I hope you’ll allow me my slight hyperbole and dramatics, as I am trying to illustrate a point.

I can also think of down sides to honing on synthetics. For knowing when to change grits effectively you have to 'read the scratch patterns' with a 30x loupe; or trust such things as the honing pyramid, but if it were me, I’d like to know the when and why myself.

They are all uniform and well documented, meaning that there’s hardly any exploration in it anymore, it is very predictable the globe all over. In that sense naturals are all different, yes, but e.g. coticules (just because that’s what I know) in general are predictable enough to set-up broad guidelines in which there are possible variations that the user may have to (or want to) explore.

Which again brings me to Cove5440’s post.

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Originally Posted by Cove5440

I have to add a bit to the comments above. I have a coti/BBW stone and I love it. […] That's just my thoughts. I just wish I had saved money and stuck with the known, as opposed to buying a coti/BBW combo and a Chinese natural, not being happy with the results and ending up getting a Norton 4/8 anyway. I'm getting great edges off the naturals now, but it took a lot longer to get there.

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Let me start off by saying I’m a bit confused about your post. First you mention that you have a combination coticule and you love it. But then at the end you said you wish you hadn’t bought it because of the steep learning curve (which apparently you mastered). You mean you didn’t like learning the skill of honing on a coticule?

I’ve been doing this for a year and I’ve been getting good results (from the start when I was just mucking about) on two different coticules. But I’m not saying I’ve got this natural thing down, my consistency can improve but mainly my standard result i.e. keenness can improve. I do however get pretty good shaving edges and I’ve enjoyed getting frustrated from time to time, if you get my drift.

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Originally Posted by Cove5440

However, starting out here n Canada, the Combo stone, or even just the Coti is somewhere around double or triple the price of a Norton 4/8 combo stone, if you want anywhere near the same size. I picked up a standard grade 6" x 1.5 and I paid around $90 +/-. That was a few years ago as well, they have gone up since. The Norton is 3" x 8" I believe is $79 here at Lee Valley Tools. To get anything close to that size now in a natural combo, you're paying over $200 at least. Now I understand that as a beginner, you can learn to do the X stroke on a smaller stone, but that adds to the learning curve and adds variables that are difficult to help with when giving advice, as well as the points above regarding the unknown grit of each stone.

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About the size. My first coticule also was a standard grade, sized 1.5x4” or ~4.5x10cm. It was a natural combination La Veinette bout. Within Europe, I still paid €54,10 or US$71.40 for that. Indeed, a bit longer would have been better, but 8x3” or around 20x7.5cm, now that’s just (in my opinion) unnecessarily huge. 5x15cm is plenty, up from that it’s just luxury (less strokes, looks more impressive).

And I also don’t understand the X-stroke allergy that seems to be going around in the straight shaving community; 3” strops, 3” wide hones; it’s really not that difficult, you get used to it pretty fast and I find it easier to have the edge touch the hone evenly when using an X-stroke (although I do use back and forth strokes for details instead of complete strokes).

When you start with an X-stroke, you need to pay a lot attention to your edge touching the hone, which is a steeper learning curve than with a back-and-forth stroke, but there’s no room for laziness and messing it up is evident, maybe much more so than when you do back-and-forth strokes; they seem easier, but actually require the same eye for detail.

And of course (big) stones cut to size are more expensive; they’re harder to come by. For good value, try to get a decent sized, properly shaped bout. Comparing a coticule to a Norton 4000/8000 is a bit of a hit and miss in my opinion, coticules are a bit more versatile and with a bit of work are pretty much a complete honing set up. The Norton 4000/8000 just is not, or at least not in a comparable way.

I think you got a great price for an ideally sized stone. An entire Naniwa Super Stone set-up will cost you around US$300, after which at some point you will probably need a finer finisher, so either a natural, be it coticule, Japanese, Thüringian or synthetic. This will cost you something varying from let’s say US$45 to however much you are willing to spend. A Shapton Glass 30,000 is US$350, you can get a pretty awesome variety of naturals for that kind of money. The Shapton 16,000 is already US$130. I don’t buy the ‘naturals are much more expensive tan synthetics’ argument, sorry. If anything it would be the other way around, but there are too many variables to take into account (such as €600 Japanese naturals) and it all depends what you are willing to pay.

So again, I want to make it clear that I am not arguing in favour of either synthetic or naturals, although admittedly I myself favour naturals. It’s the only hones I use, so forgive me for the subjectivity on that. I just have to get it off my chest, so please forgive me for the following [blatant coticule promotion rant] I like having pretty much a one-stone set-up for €55, which is not at all as mysterious as some people try to make it. Most coticules work in the same way; they just don't follow the same stroke-count, but you have to look for pretty much the same indicators. And standard makes absolutely no difference; select hones are just more uniform in colour. And more expensive because they are rarer.[/blatant coticule promotion]

All I really want to say with this post is that you can get both a good natural set-up and a good synthetic set-up for prices varying from affordable to ridiculously expensive. It’s about the size of your wallet, ego and preference. It's not going to be easy either way.

Best regards,

Pieter

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Originally Posted by Pithor

DISCLAIMER: If you don't read long posts, you may skip this. But I hope you have an attention span longer than five minutes and that you don't skip it.

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Oh, long posts are the most interesting:)

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Originally Posted by Pithor

To the OP:

Chris, If I had to recommend something, I would advise to get a coticule bout, standard grade of approx. 5x15cm and start doing unicot as specified here (or some variation on that). But that's only because it's what I did, it's as good a start as any.

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See, this is where I tend to disagree with you.
It is a start, and surely it has worked for thousands of other throughout the years.
Yet I claim it is not as good as any, (for a newcomer) because the learning curve and the available help is not on level with say a Norton 4/8. IMHO.
We will not agree on this, and I'm not out to disrespect you or the Coticule as a hone, it's just that my experiences are different from yours.

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Originally Posted by Pithor

Ardennes-coticule being in Belgium, I think you can get something nice for a very affordable price, just send an e-mail through the website asking for the availability of razor hones, they are very helpful. This is if you're interest of course. Please don't take my word for gospel, as I know next to nothing :p, but at least I'm aware of that.

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Oh, he who claims to preach the Gospel in this sport pretty much proves he doesn't.
There are many ways to a shave ready edge, I sure don't know but a fraction of them:)

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Originally Posted by Pithor

You want to get a low grit (220 or something around that) for really rough work if you plan to restore severely damaged edges, and maybe a 1000 grit synthetic for bevel repair/(re-)establishing, although I never used one and mainly use a rather dense slurry on the coticule for that.

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Originally Posted by Pithor

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You know, I have been honing all kinds of ebay specials that I have bought these past couple of years, and have yet to use anything coarser than a 500 Grit stone. And to be honest, I rarely go below 1000.

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Originally Posted by Pithor

Snip...
First let me make it clear I'm not arguing against starting with synthetics. I think synthetic set-ups are a bit on the pricey side (some edging towards ridiculous expensive), but so are naturals (some Japanese naturals go for plenty, too), especially when someone starts a collection -unlike me, I only have two coticules and the hardware store dual stone. But anyway.

I can also indeed think of some advantages to starting with synthetics. They are pretty much uniform, have clear grit determinations so a clear progression can be devised. They are readily available from many different places, e.g. woodworking shops and there’s loads of info available on here.

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Yep, that is indeed the upside for a novice honer, and quite an important aspect it is too. IMHO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pithor

Which is why I said what I said. Threads on synthetic hones outnumber the threads on natural hones by far. At times it even seems that new honers are intimidated by naturals, that they are something for the experienced, that you need a certain number of ‘synthetic honing hours’ to be allowed your ‘natural honing license’. I hope you’ll allow me my slight hyperbole and dramatics, as I am trying to illustrate a point.

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Again, some very good observations, and I think you are right. A lot of people are intimidated by the naturals.
There really is no reason for that, but they are easier to work on with a bit of a base of experience grinding steel away to sharpen a razor.

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Originally Posted by Pithor

I can also think of down sides to honing on synthetics. For knowing when to change grits effectively you have to 'read the scratch patterns' with a 30x loupe; or trust such things as the honing pyramid, but if it were me, I’d like to know the when and why myself.

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I'm afraid I don't quite see what you mean here.
A loupe is a fine tool for assessing the progress, I use that when honing on all kinds of stones, be it a Coticule, A JNat, an Escher or any synthetic stone.
That does not mean one doesn't know what and why, it is simply yet another tool much like the various tests of variable quality out there.
The feedback off of a synthetic stone is every bit as easy to read as with a natural.
Well, at least with the ones I have:)
The Unicot or the Dilucot is pretty much the same thing as a pyramid or any other regimen out there, it is something to help you in your honing progression to reach the goal we all share. A shave ready edge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pithor

They are all uniform and well documented, meaning that there’s hardly any exploration in it anymore, it is very predictable the globe all over. In that sense naturals are all different, yes, but e.g. coticules (just because that’s what I know) in general are predictable enough to set-up broad guidelines in which there are possible variations that the user may have to (or want to) explore.

....Snip

Best regards,

Pieter

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Here we are at the crux of the matter in my opinion, and where we seem to see things differently.
For a new honer I maintain the view of going the easiest possible route, God knows this sport is filled with enough hurdles to jump before reaching acceptable levels in one's daily enjoyment of a good shave.

Now, don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the Coticule, so this is by no means an attempt to talk them down.
I have other stones and systems I think are even better, but that is just preference.
What we do agree upon, it seems, is the enjoyment of exploring the how-to's of a hone, reaching the very best results from them.

.......


[/QUOTE]

Pithor, don't worry, I didn't get offended by your post. I like when there are posts about the pros and cons of doing one thing or another.

To clarify my love for the coticule, it's been a long and frustrating journey for me. It is slow, compared to most of the posts and videos, or at least that's what I thought. I couldn't get a good edge off of it and almost gave up, before buying the Norton. I don't know if I was diluting the slurry too fast or just not spending enough time on it before but I just couldn't get it to work. Now I've realized, for me, fast half strokes work best with this stone. I'm still not great with it, but some tips recently from a member on here helped.

On the flip side, it only took me twice on the Norton to get a good edge, following advice on here. That's why I recommend the Norton or similar for beginners. As has been shown by other recent threads, you don't "NEED" a full set of stones. A 4/8 is perfect to start and after you can decide if you want to get into natural stones or stick with synthetic.

As far as comparing the two, I agree, you can't lump them in the same bucket. But each Natural stone is different. The number of strokes you use may be half what I do, so trying to help someone isn't as easy as just saying 20 x strokes will get you where you want to go. ( just using that number as an example)


Ps I had my coticule for over a year before getting the Norton.
Anyway, I'm getting off of what I wanted to do, which was only to clarify MY experience.

I have worked on and off again for about two years now, half a dozen coticules, and have yet to get a razor as sharp as my normal set-up of Shapton Ceramics followed by Escher. My last effort will involve finishing on oil. We will see.

Birnando, Cove, thanks for the replies.

The scratch patter comment just goes to show that I have never used synthetics. I worked on assumption, which is of course not the best way to discuss things.

But anyway, I think we just fundamentally disagree on the degree of the learning curve.

Although I must say I'm also still not so sure about how easy it is to learn to properly hone on sythetic hones; also because - again I assume but I find this one pretty safe and it makes sense to me - that synthetic hones differ between series and manufacturers. I can only guess to which degree, but it goes to show that synthetic hones are not all the same, and that different hones require different approaches. Maybe they even differ from each other to the same degree as one coticule differs from another.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Birnando

...[natural hones] are easier to work on with a bit of a base of experience grinding steel away to sharpen a razor.

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This I also do not understand. How does honing on a synthetic hone provide you with anything that will help you on a natural hone that you wouldn't also learn when starting on the natural hone? Aha, wait, do you mean that on synthetics you can succeed in sharpening a razor with only some aspects that would be required to get a shave-ready razor off a natural hone? Such as honing strokes and recognising a bevel? Then I do see your point that learning on a synthetic would be easier, but as I have never honed on a synthetic, I can say nothing but that I am still skeptic about it being so much easier. Maybe it's just because, on SRP, synthetics are extremely well documented.

So indeed I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. But I thought this needed to be said. I still feel that naturals are as good a start as any, may the learning curve to get awesome edges be slightly bigger. It is however possible to get a serviceable edge pretty damn fast after starting on one. I bet if you start honing and straight shaving at the same time (of course not with the same blade) you might actualy get consistent really good edges before you get those really awesome shaves everyone always talks about.


And Shooter74743, shaving sharpness for me is not about getting an edge as sharp as humanly possible. If you could get en edge so sharp you could split atoms with it, I doubt it would be a pleasure to shave with. But really it's about what you prefer and what your skin allows. But I'm glad to hear you're happy with your Shaptons, I never doubted they were quality made hones to get stuff really sharp.

@ Gssixgun: thanks for your extensive advice here. Did you have any particular reason for not mentioning cubic boron nitride? I like it very much for daily use. Since I started using it my hones have seen much less use. A good thing unless you have a honing addiction disorder.

So you like cubic boron nitride. Awesome. Where do you get it? Does it come in powder or paste? How is it applied? How many strokes do you use with it. What makes it different than other available media? How many razors have you been using it on at what intervals?

Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kees

@ Gssixgun: thanks for your extensive advice here. Did you have any particular reason for not mentioning cubic boron nitride? I like it very much for daily use. Since I started using it my hones have seen much less use. A good thing unless you have a honing addiction disorder.

---

I started honing with a Norton 4/8 and a DMT 325. I quickly added a C12k, two combo coticules and a set of the Welsh slate stones currently being sold on eBay. I've tried with several different razors to do a one-stone hone on both cotis with limited success. The edges cut whiskers and they don't leave any razor burn, but they aren't as sharp as I like. Whether the fault lies with me or the stones.... I just don't know. However, the Norton 4/8 is an easy stone to learn how to use and it's an easy step from the 8k to whatever finisher you like. The edges I get using the Nortons far exceed those from the cotis, and I think I would have been quite frustrated if I had started with just a combo coticule.

Now with all that out of the way, let me ask you this... Have you ever shaved with a coticule edge? If you haven't, then it might be a good idea to have someone proficient with coticules hone a razor for you so you can see if it's an edge you enjoy before dropping the cash on one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kees

@ Gssixgun: thanks for your extensive advice here. Did you have any particular reason for not mentioning cubic boron nitride? I like it very much for daily use. Since I started using it my hones have seen much less use. A good thing unless you have a honing addiction disorder.

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Because unlike many on this forum, I NEVER EVER recommend or Not recommend anything that I haven't tried myself....

Point in reference on this thread already

Pithor: "The scratch patter comment just goes to show that I have never used synthetics. I worked on assumption, which is of course not the best way to discuss things"


I will however take a look for some on this side of the pond and see what I can find Kees unless Lynn finds it first then I'll borrow some from him :p...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sweeneychris

Hi guys I am looking to start doing my own honing, I have been sending my razors away but came to the conclusion that I should really start doing my own.
The only problem is I have a few questions if you could help:-
1,what grits should I have? Is there a few "must have's"
2, is the norton stones the best out there and nothing else will do or is it personal preference? I have seen some welsh and Japanese stones for good prices.
3, would you recommend getting some razors to practice on rather my best ones?

Thanks guys

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I'll give you my opinions, for what they're worth.
1. Sorta. Ideally you want something rough enough to set bevels, something in the middle to sharpen, and something fine enough to make a razor feel comfortable on your face. That doesn't necessarily mean three different devices, three different media, or whatever. These three tasks can be accomplished with one, two, three, six, or a dozen or more different devices. You can find plenty of information--on this site alone--on just about every one of them. Opinions vary, so take in all you can and make an informed decision that you're the most likely to be happy with.

2. The Nortons are a fine setup. The 4k/8k combo stone is what I started with and it does two of the jobs above quite well. In my opinion the 4k is a little slow for bevel setting, but certainly capable given some patience. Norton offers a 1k which can do that work faster. Keep in mind that you'll need to lap them quite frequently so it's not just the norton stones themselves you'll need. If you're interested, there's about a million videos of Nortons being used to sharpen razors. Watch what those guys do and what they use. Indeed, other setups will work, too (see #1). For example, I prefer naturally-occurring stones now to my Nortons. It really is personal preference. Some guys like Fords some guys like Chevys. Both get you from A to B (most of the time, anyway) it's just a matter of which you prefer and how much money you'd feel comfortable spending. Ebay can be your friend, embrace it!

3. Yes. I don't think you need a plethora of practice razors, though. Get one one ebay, or an antique store, or flea market, that looks decent and is somewhat similar to the majority of the razors you have now. For example, if you have wedges, get a wedge to practice on. If you have hollower razors, get a hollow one. I think you ought to be able to get one for less than 20 bucks that you can run through the ringer. Try to avoid getting attached to it because you might punish it a little while you learn.

I would say look at the reasons people recommend a given hone or hone setup. If you agree with a line of reasoning, then that's a good start. I'll give you some general things to look for: Synthetics are often recommended because they are said to be more predictable and foolproof. There's a lot of different synthetics, and plenty of information on each. Naturals are often recommended because of harder-to-define reasons. For example, they give you a direct link to your ancestors, they come from the earth, they have a particular "feel" and smell that can be lacking in synthetics, they look cool, etc. I also believe them to be lower maintenance (which I like) but that, too, is a personal preference. There's a lot of different naturals, and varying degrees of information on each.

In my opinion, you are tasked with surveying the field of information, and finding a line of reasoning you agree with. Once that's done, all you'll need is your credit card. :)

@ Lynn:

This is what I got: JENDE: Ken Schwartz CBN Sprays

I use the 0.125 (0-0.25) CBN spray

I have been using CBN daily for about a year, used it on approx. 15 razors. I pasted a couple of paddle strops with the stuff. Works on leather and balsa. After each shave I give the razor 20 round trips on it, helps drying and cleaning the edge. Before every shave another 40 round trips. If you feel that is overdoing it please let me know. Works very well for me. Before I started using it I would give all my razors 60 round trips on the linen followed by 60 on leather. After about 3-5 shaves I started to feel the edge lose some of its keenness. Since using CBN my razors always feel like fresh from the hones. I have only used chromox in the past. IMHO this stuff is miles better than chromox. I never used diamond sprays as they are said on this forum to produce harsh edges. CBN is said to have a Mohs hardness of about 10 which is similar to diamond: Boron nitride - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I hope this answers your questions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kees

I never used diamond sprays as they are said on this forum to produce harsh edges.

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People say a lot of things. You should try it. I find it produces very smooth edges.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Because unlike many on this forum, I NEVER EVER recommend or Not recommend anything that I haven't tried myself....

Point in reference on this thread already

Pithor: "The scratch patter comment just goes to show that I have never used synthetics. I worked on assumption, which is of course not the best way to discuss things"

---

My point was not to recommend anything over the other, even though I nudge towards coticules, because it was how I started and I never really needed anything else since they are so versatile. This was not to talk down sythetics (or diamond sprays and such as well), I just wanted to give a different angle and add something new to the discussion. I thought I made that clear, but obviously not clear enough.

Nowhere in this thread have I recommended or not recommended something I have not tried. The comment you quoted was just to admit that I didn't argue well enough, i.e. making a mistake and admitting it. I should have left that out of my initial post. I was consistently clear and honest about it that I did not use synthetics; that was pretty much my entire point. The only thing I recommended was the way I did it, to illustrate the different ways you can start rather than trying to persuade Chris that that was the right way.

I'm sorry, but my quote is NOT a point in reference for advising for or against certain types of hones without having used them, I mentioned multiple times that I do not advise people to not get synthetic hones. It almost feels as if you try to discredit me and my argument by picking that quote as an example of something it was never an example of to contrast it with yourself and your advise.

And also honing the way I do, I don't see the point in getting a complete synthetic progression, Japanese natural with nagura progression, diamond sprays or anything like that. My honing needs are fulfilled. And I don't see why I should, as there are plenty of knowledgeable people on the subject of all the different possible synthetic hones.

Again, I just wanted to show that it's possible to NOT use synthetics (or hardly) for (starting) honing, that's all.

Sorry Chris for going off the track a bit. I hope you make the choice that is right for you and makes you happy. The more honers, the better.

If you are accustomed to very sharp razors, you will like diamonds. Personally I like .5 micron & use it when I feel that "magic" starting to fade. I'm also one who will shave with only 10-20x off the stones to ensure that I have done everything right off the stones...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pithor

My point was not to recommend anything over the other, even though I nudge towards coticules, because it was how I started and I never really needed anything else since they are so versatile. This was not to talk down sythetics (or diamond sprays and such as well), I just wanted to give a different angle and add something new to the discussion. I thought I made that clear, but obviously not clear enough.

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The problem Pithor is because you havn't ever used them, many/most of your assumtions about them are totally inaccurate, but you blindly state them anyway, and I am sorry but that is a pet peeve of mine..

I could go back through your posts here and tear them down statement by statement but it is way easier to simply point out that you are biased to using only what you know... If you had only stated what you know, that would have been different but you expanded into talking about things you have never used..

The worst part is that now I have soured your opinion about synthetics and you will probably never try them and if you do, you will try them with the attitude to prove that guy Glen wrong and that is your loss of really nice edges :(

If you took the time to actually learn how to really use the Sythetics they will surprise you...

I use both Naturals and Synthetics,, and love them both,,

Now having sat down with quite a few new honers in person I can factually tell you that most (not all) find the larger stones much easier to use, when learning, this is why those of us that have taken the time to sit and teach keep, recommending the same thing over and over and over not because we like them better and not because we haven't used other, it is because we try and give the easiest path for the most people...

I leave you with a simple statement, take the time to hone on an 8x3 Synthetic and learn it as well as you learned your Coticule and enjoy the shave, you might learn someting new

g

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

I have worked on and off again for about two years now, half a dozen coticules, and have yet to get a razor as sharp as my normal set-up of Shapton Ceramics followed by Escher. My last effort will involve finishing on oil. We will see.

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______________________

+1 on the Shaptons. And the Escher or Thuringian.

Try finishing on Spyderco UF w/ .1 micron iron oxide for a "smooth" edge.

Jerry

To Chris: again, sorry for slightly polluting your thread, I hope you find what you want and need, and hope that at least some of my ranting was useful to you. I just felt compelled to defend my point of view.

Again, I was just looking to add a different perspective to the discussion, and considered this to be a discussion. I do not necessarily take criticism as attacks on my character, and therefore am not spiteful towards anyone, I just hope, if nothing else, that someone realised that you can start honing any way you prefer, instead of looking for the easiest way. Over and out, catch you later, and happy honing. :o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sweeneychris

Hi guys I am looking to start doing my own honing, I have been sending my razors away but came to the conclusion that I should really start doing my own.
The only problem is I have a few questions if you could help:-
1,what grits should I have? Is there a few "must have's"
2, is the norton stones the best out there and nothing else will do or is it personal preference? I have seen some welsh and Japanese stones for good prices.
3, would you recommend getting some razors to practice on rather my best ones?

Thanks guys

---

There are lots of good replies to your questions in the above posts. GSSIXGUN made a good post where he states that it depends on what you want type/mode of honing you want to do.

Question 1) The bottom line in selecting the hones you should purchase is dependent on the amount of time you want to spend on honing and the amount of patients you have to achieve an edge. The more time you have available and the higher your level of patients the less hones you will need. The more metal you need to remove from a razor to obtain a shave ready edge the courser the grit of your first hone used or the more time and patients you will need.

Question 2) Hones differ in the hardness of the grit and the strength of the bond between the grits. To get lots of razors honed quickly this may become important. For the person honing for themselves it is less important. The Norton and Naniwa hones are good all around hones and will perform well for most honing needs. There are many other hones that will get the job done but for the time and cost SRP members have found them to work well. The best hone to use would depend on the steel of the razor and the hardness of the steel but the Norton and Naniwa hones are good all purpose hones. As a person new to honing the only difference between the two that you will notice for a while if the 'feel' while honing.

Question 3) Yes. Pick up some good quality vintage straights that you can get cheap. The lesser known brands from Sheffield, Germany or Sweden are a good starting point. Local shops and/or flea markets may be cheaper than ebay. Using a low cost razor to learn honing with will take a lot of the concerns about making mistakes and may even result in an unexpected razor in your rotation.

If you have hones available to you know and you think that one of them may be around 8k grit size I would say to put a practice razor to your hones and see what ya get. An 8k hone is the roughest hone you will want to end your honing session with. You may not notice much improvement using hones finer than 8k until you can get good shaves off the 8k but you may be one of the lucky ones that can. Either way, the finishing hones can always be added a bit later. I shaved off 8k hones for quite some time back when that was the SRP standard finisher. You can always buy more hones if you want to improve on what you have handy. For touching up shave ready razors don't forget about using pastes and sprays like CrOx and/or diamond spray, just to name a couple as a cheaper alternative to honing or to improve/refine your freshly honed edges. Good luck.

Natural vs synthetic . It's nice to say natural if: you have a trusted source that will tell you what each stone can do.Not Just Their Names. And if you have the money.
Synthetic: ie Norton (new ones)You know what you're buying and you're buying at a reasonable price.
New to open razors and you don't live near someone that can show you... Buy synthetic and get a lapping stone.

You can do it all on a piece of slurry stone. But most people have more satisfying ways to spend their time than doing a pretty simple and straightforward task the most difficult way possible.


If you want to do it the easiest way start by simply maintaining your razors sharp with a hone. Once you are comfortable with that increase the challenge a bit by starting further away, i.e. cut a piece of paper with the razor and get it back to shaving sharp from there (you'll likely want to drop to a 4000 level for that, though it's not necessary and slurry on your touchup hone is going to be fast enough). Once you're good at that, tackle the bevel restoration part on something like ebay special, or faucetted razor.

This is the easiest way, period. I can prove mathematically it's the easiest, but the key is that it builds incrementally from the simplest tasks to more complicated ones by using what you've already mastered to leverage the next step.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lynn

So you like cubic boron nitride. Awesome. Where do you get it? Does it come in powder or paste? How is it applied? How many strokes do you use with it. What makes it different than other available media? How many razors have you been using it on at what intervals?

Thanks.

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What I've seen is a liquid from CKTG. Not the cheapest stuff around. I use it every so often after I finish honing. Not too often for a touch up. Adds a bit of umph and smoothness to the edge. I rather like it. I use it over any other abrasives.