Method to test stone's finish?

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Naturals are only rated by someone trying to sell them :rofl2:

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And therein lies the inspiration for this thread. I would like a finisher
which would remove the last traces of scratches which I can see with the naked eye.
8K Norton doesn't do it. The barber hone comes very close. The Crox pasted strop
would maybe accomplish the task if I lived long enough and my arm held out but then
the edge would likely be gone.

Making an informed decision by actually obtaining the stones and using them and shaving
to test their effect is a long way to travel to get where I am going. The variations between
individual naturals only complicates the matter further.

For now proper technique with the barber hone seems to be close enough.

Scratches that you can't see with the naked eye are from hones 8k and above (even 3k and above if you won't check it with angles). After that, if the finish is not mirror, or matte like a few stones produce, you can say that it's because of scratches. It's more of a polishing matter than honing. A mirror polished surface, with CrOx or 0.25μm diamond paste, WILL give you scratches if you try to hone it with anything with lower grit.

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

All things being equal there is a thing some call "feedback".
When moving from one hone to the next the feedback can be a big help in this.
At first the next finer hone grabs and you can almost feel the steel being
removed. Then the razor seems to sit down and stick to the hone a bit as
the two surfaces mate up tightly.

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I really like this description. I've been trying to figure out the sensations I get on the hones, and this is exactly how I would describe what I am feeling when I change grits. I was thinking it had more to do with the surface of the hone, but now I'm not so sure. I guess it could be the surface of the razor, moving to a finer surface.

Michael

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Originally Posted by jaswarb

And therein lies the inspiration for this thread. I would like a finisher
which would remove the last traces of scratches which I can see with the naked eye.
8K Norton doesn't do .....snip....

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One detail to watch for is polishing will expose scratches that were invisible.
The chemistry of a hone contributes to the polishing action too.

The best razor for this is an ugly old well worn blade with a big bevel and lots of spine wear.

For me a norton 8k will show a good polish if I did my job at 1k & 4k. I confess to owning a 1k, 2k, 3k hone set that makes removing scratches from 1k and coarser bevel repair better.

Of interest the Naniwa White 8k is compounded to polish better than their superstone IFIRC.

A less expensive high polish trick is pressure sensitive adhesive film on a very flat base.
Woodcraft's 15/5/0.3 micron film will result in a nice polish.

This may no longer be of great use seeing that I am late to the party but I had a Hibbard Spencer OVB Barber hone. I used it for about 6 months then sold it. I'd say it is an adequate finisher, but preferred edges from my coticules and Escher. It wasn't particularly fine, maybe somewhere a little past 8K. Bottom line is that you can shave off it and maintain razors with it for a very long time provided you do not damage their edges and that they are shave ready to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Scipio

This may no longer be of great use seeing that I am late to the party but I had a Hibbard Spencer OVB Barber hone. I used it for about 6 months then sold it. I'd say it is an adequate finisher, but preferred edges from my coticules and Escher. It wasn't particularly fine, maybe somewhere a little past 8K. Bottom line is that you can shave off it and maintain razors with it for a very long time provided you do not damage their edges and that they are shave ready to begin with.

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And considering I might never find or be able to pay for an Escher and there seems to be such wide variation in coticules I might just as well enjoy the HSB I have. It seems to take me beyond the 8k.

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Originally Posted by jaswarb

And considering I might never find or be able to pay for an Escher and there seems to be such wide variation in conticules I might just a well enjoy the HSB I have. It seems to take me beyond the 8k.

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While it is great that there has been an explosive increase in the art of straight shaving, it is a great shame that the prices of all ancillaries, particularly hones, has rocketed. We are victims of our own demand and vendors across the world have long caught on to this. It is a necessity for the vast majority of the content of SRP to be within the public domain in order for beginners to commence straight shaving, lurk and eventually join the forums, however we inadvertently provide valuations for vendors and again the effect has been drastic for those wishing to make acquisitions.

Back to the topic, there is nothing wrong with the OVB and it is a good finisher. Do enjoy using it. The truth is if I had to use one to maintain the few razors that I have reduced my weekly rotation to, my life wouldn't be compromised. There was a time when I was more obsessed but today with all the complexities I have to endure on a daily basis, I use my straights and hones as tools. I still get the thrill though from time to time.

I couldn't believe the question! I was confused. I thought, well a finer grit is going to finish smoother than a coarser grit. But then I thought maybe you were asking the question: "As between two stones of identical grit, how do you determine which one is going to finish smoother than the other?" So I ran downstairs and got out my 10,000 grit Chosera stone and my 10,000 grit Sigma and gave then each a lick. What do you know, the Chosera came across on the tongue as smoother. So when I got back upstairs my wife asked what I was doing so I told her I was downstairs licking my stones.

Cheers

insert crude joke comparing mans flexibility to a dogs here.

So, the only way to test unknown hones is under a microscope, and nothing else? (Yes, and the tongue trick)

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Originally Posted by Vasilis

So, the only way to test unknown hones is under a microscope, and nothing else? (Yes, and the tongue trick)

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I think the general concensus it no to the microscope (handy to watch up close how an unknown hone works the blade), some swear by the tongue for a basic general test of the stone and testing with a razor and shave test is the only sure-fire test.

I'm generally referring to the non escher-fine hones. The ones lower than 8k grit, maybe 1k-3k or 5k, that can't shave like the famous fine ones. The only thing we can rely on is a microscope? Hones have been used the last 5k+ years. And our feeling on our tongue? It depends on the grit we used for lapping it (the famous garnet based hones are exception). We should stop relying on someone else for a spectacular invention that can show us whatever we need to see. We need new ideas how to do it. I can't really think some new innovative method for doing this, but I hope I will, without the use of electricity and microscopes and whatnot. Anyone with ideas?

Sorry if this is done or not I just skimmed the last half of the thread :p That said this is PURELY a personal issue, only testing and familiarity will win the day.

Over the years of playing with many various stones for both my kitchen knives and my razors I've noticed a few things. Only experience with any one system is going to allow you to tell the difference between same grit score stones. When I started this so many years ago I only knew sharp and not sharp enough. With time and use on various stones, I already had a large collection of stones for my knives, I started to become aware of different degrees of sharp enough. Learning first on a Norton 4/8k and using this exclusivly for about a year, than moving onto different makers and grit levels I found that I really didn't like the two 30k stones I had access to on my face. Now both of these where synthetic stones and I had not moved to naturals yet. Once I did move to naturals and used them enough to get used to them I came to a realaliation... Grit levels on synthetic stone mattered not to me as far as razors where concerned. I would drag my fingernail across a natural stone and could decide if I was going to enjoy the shave off that stone. I've gone back to synthetic stones now and again to see if I can still notice the difference and yes they still shave differently and I just love the shave off a natural stone.

Some basics that I use for myself, if the grit is angular (usually synthetic) it goes to my kitchen knives. If the grit is rounded or pancaked in some way I will try it for razors. The shave off both these grit styles are very different and really is a personal issue, both get the job done in ways that would be classified as a comfortable shave. Both feel very different if you are aware of the feeling from each.

Testing by razor and use, hone your razors on everything you can get your hands on, and shave with them noting the difference and how you liked the feeling and experience. Even the honing experience needs to be taken into account. I had one stone I just loved the shave off of but hated using that stone so i got rid of it, to this day I couldn't tell you what it was lol but it was synthetic.

Ok off the soapbox :p

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Originally Posted by Vasilis

I'm generally referring to the non escher-fine hones. The ones lower than 8k grit, maybe 1k-3k or 5k, that can't shave like the famous fine ones. The only thing we can rely on is a microscope? Hones have been used the last 5k+ years. And our feeling on our tongue? It depends on the grit we used for lapping it (the famous garnet based hones are exception). We should stop relying on someone else for a spectacular invention that can show us whatever we need to see. We need new ideas how to do it. I can't really think some new innovative method for doing this, but I hope I will, without the use of electricity and microscopes and whatnot. Anyone with ideas?

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Not sure it really can, that has not already been done. Using a vintage system and testing in vintage ways... I couldn't think of something that hasn't already been tried. Remember they had ALLOT more time on their hands to study this stuff, the trick is finding those old tests. Unlike today with online passage of information, those old tests are in a ledger or book... somewhere or lost to the passing of time.

Trying to test with modern ideas using vintage equipment may or may not shine anything new or identifiable. When I try to over focus on a specific test (being dyslexic I tend to do this alot) I find I have overshot my original interests in the results I was looking for.

While I wouldn't bother with wanting to test stones the way the OP is wanting to do, I applaud them for thinking of it and hope you find what your looking for :)

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Originally Posted by Vasilis

I'm generally referring to the non escher-fine hones. The ones lower than 8k grit, maybe 1k-3k or 5k, that can't shave like the famous fine ones. The only thing we can rely on is a microscope? Hones have been used the last 5k+ years. And our feeling on our tongue? It depends on the grit we used for lapping it (the famous garnet based hones are exception). We should stop relying on someone else for a spectacular invention that can show us whatever we need to see. We need new ideas how to do it. I can't really think some new innovative method for doing this, but I hope I will, without the use of electricity and microscopes and whatnot. Anyone with ideas?

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With the lower grits, very little experience will get you where you can find a progression via touch or tongue. Not that I have ever tongued a stone mind you. More experience and you will probably be able to guestimate the actual grit to the numbers you mention above. With a disclaimer on one grit does not equal another grit. For a given "grit" the US number, the EU number and the japanese number will all be different. I dont know how to DL and view this handy PDF grit comparison:

Attachment 95038

Things get complicated when you get to very fine grits, fine enough where I think its not just cutting scratches, but actually burnishing the edge some, smoothing out any scratches. Speaking of which, makes me wonder if anyone has tried a flat steel plate and just burnished their straight on that and how it came out.

Burnishing is a very good method for a mirror like shine on steel, better that any hone if it's done correctly (for the authentic Japanese swords, professional polishers burnish some parts of the blade but not the edge) but I don't think it can make an edge finer after honing.

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Originally Posted by jaswarb

I would like to determine if my HSB & CO OVB is adequate as a finisher. I have a Norton 8k and sometimes I will finish with a few strops on a crox paddle.

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The inspiration for the original post was an effort to reduce the trial and error nature of settling on a stone to take my 8K honing one step further. It has become a moot point as I have one barber's hone which has succeeded surpassing my 8k results as measured by the shave test and several stones arriving just to play with. The most cogent discovery for me there is sharpness beyond a stropped 8k edge with my present skill level.

The stones which are on the way so exceed my present abilities the questions I had hoped to simplify have already been made moot.

Thanks for all the input.

AND I STILL AIN'T LICKED NO STONES!:y

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Originally Posted by Vasilis

Burnishing is a very good method for a mirror like shine on steel, better that any hone if it's done correctly (for the authentic Japanese swords, professional polishers burnish some parts of the blade but not the edge) but I don't think it can make an edge finer after honing.

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That is a very good point. It seems if there is something a bit more than just a more precise angle that kind of creates the comfort of the shave. Curiosity coming out.

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Originally Posted by jaswarb

The inspiration for the original post was an effort to reduce the trial and error nature of settling on a stone to take my 8K honing one step further. It has become a moot point as I have one barber's hone which has succeeded surpassing my 8k results as measured by the shave test and several stones arriving just to play with. The most cogent discovery for me there is sharpness beyond a stropped 8k edge with my present skill level.

The stones which are on the way so exceed my present abilities the questions I had hoped to simplify have already been made moot.

Thanks for all the input.

AND I STILL AIN'T LICKED NO STONES!:y

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Until you see them all there on the shelf. Start to wonder what all the fuss was about. Realize no-one is home. Forumites are on the computer and not there. "They will never know" is what you will be saying to yourself, in that darkened room, alone but with the stones. You will gain courage by rubbing them first with just the thumb, then a finger or two. Then you will try and arm, then a thigh and before you know you will be in a multi-stone makeout session and you wife will walk in.

You are creeping me out. :nono: