Stone ID, please.

I've bought this stone long time ago, when I've received, I've touch it and I was disappointed because was rough like sandpaper 400 grit. Put it in a drawer and never thought it till last day when I've decide to try to lap it for look if was good for my kitchen knifes.

On appearance looks like a piece of marble and I expect it was hard like marble, instead it was very soft and after15 minutes wasrelative flat, but most important, with my big surprise the surface was fine, I would extimate around 8K.

Come from Uk,color is a verylight green with dark green vein.

Couldn't be the rare FIDDISH RIVER honestone from Banffshire, Scotland ?:y

Thanks

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Beautifull hone. Please do not teas me. I have enough trouble running around CFs and Welsh hones.:hmmm:

I don't think it is an extremely rare stone, more like just rare. It looks like novaculite, if the white lines on the upper side of the first picture are small cracks, like flaking. I don't think UK has nay other novaculite hones accept from Charnely forest and Llyn idwal. Llyn idwal is hard like glass usually, charnley is softer but still hard. Llyn idwal is a bit coarser than Charnley, there are stones near the 8k grit. After that, I'm not sure.

Its definately a nice looking stone somewhat like marble but you said its light green could it be a beryl polishing stone?
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Originally Posted by Vasilis

I don't think it is an extremely rare stone, more like just rare. It looks like novaculite, if the white lines on the upper side of the first picture are small cracks, like flaking. I don't think UK has nay other novaculite hones accept from Charnely forest and Llyn idwal. Llyn idwal is hard like glass usually, charnley is softer but still hard. Llyn idwal is a bit coarser than Charnley, there are stones near the 8k grit. After that, I'm not sure.

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Few bit to clarify. UK has known novaculite hones at least from Lleyn Peninsula in? You guessed it North Wales. It supposed to have creamy colour. Most of awerage LIs are softer than average CFs. Yes LIs are usualy coarser than CFs.

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Originally Posted by adrspach

Few bit to clarify. UK has known novaculite hones at least from Lleyn Peninsula in? You guessed it North Wales. It supposed to have creamy colour. Most of awerage LIs are softer than average CFs. Yes LIs are usualy coarser than CFs.

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Most of LIs are softer than the Charnleys? From my experience and what others say, it's the other way around, but I will not disagree.
I don't think it's beryl. Looks more like a classic UK hone.

Fiddich honestone, eh! :) My one link with the area is Glenfiddich (the river gives it it's name) but I use that more as a lubricant...

There are a number of quartz and slate quarries there, including one for greywacke that is sometimes found as a long thin honestone with a narrow long paper label stuck to one side. The stuff found in the bed of the Fiddich River is describes as being a laminated marble. Further up is found a black/red layered type of marble which perhaps is of the same sort as that found in the river bed.

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Marble is really a type of limestone that has undergone metamorphic change (ie, it has been subjected to great heat and pressure) and which has become re-crystallised. It may contain all sorts of impurities, but is chiefly calcite so a test is to chip a bit of it off and put it into some hydrochloric acid - it will bubble and fizz. A less aggressive test is to polish the surface, and put a fairly concentrated drop of acid on it (although lemon juice, lime juice, vinegar, etc, will do) - leave it for a while and wipe off: you should see that the acid has dulled the surface (etched it) in the same shape as the droplet.

Marble is fairly soft, hence its use as a moulding material and for sculpture. It is nowhere as hard as granite or novaculite and some of it has a visible blend of large and small grains, some of which may be harder than others, making it unsuitable as hone if these 'scratchy' grains are present. It's hardness rating is sometimes quoted as from 2.5 to 5 on the MOHS scale of hardness. AS pure calcite is rated at 3 then maybe 4 is a fair average that would encompass a fair few varieties of marble. That puts us more in the same range as gold, plain iron and platinum and very, very soft steel. A good quality razor steel would probably rate at between 5.5 and 6.5.

To put that in context, belgian coticules rely on garnet grains in their matrix to do the cutting, and garnet is around 6.5 on the MOHS scale, which is close to novaculite. Granite is chiefly composed of quartz (along with an immensely variable amount of other minerals), and quartz is 7 on the scale. Beryl is harder still - 7.5 to 8.0.

So - if you found it easier to lap than marble then clearly it is not a form of novaculite or beryl.

Also, coming from the UK is no guarantee that it is found naturally occurring in the UK - the UK has always imported a vast amount of figurative stones. A lot of these stones found uses as ornamental plinths, slabs in old-fashioned larders and large slabs adorning the walls of buildings. A lot of them are in UK scrapyards - and there is a current trend that has become evident lately in the UK of persons cutting any promising looking slabs found in scrapyards into hone-stone sizes and selling them as such. If they work - fine. If they don't - you have been 'had'.

Well that's the easy part out of the way - finding what it isn't!

It does look remarkably like a few other specimens I have seen lately - I think one was shown wet on this site and looked very striking, a beautiful stone. I think I even have something similar myself somewhere, but I have no idea what it is.

Regards,
Neil

The LIs have a wide range of hardness and fineness. I've had Grecian like LIs that were as coarse as 8-9k maybe and I assume softer than any CF. But I also have dark green LIs that seem much harder than any CFs I tried. I have one LI (or at least I think it is) that is finer than all the CFs I've tried. I also had one small LI with a speckled stripe pattern that was as fine.

They are natural stones and we each have different stones we compare so our outcomes are going to differ as well.

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Originally Posted by Piet

They are natural stones and we each have different stones we compare so our outcomes are going to differ as well.

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Exactly - which is precisely why I mentioned this issue twice.

Regards,
Neil

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Here in Greece we have a quarry with marble hones (photos). They are actual marble (tested), not chalk, and I don't know how but it contains abrasive particles, SiO2 I would say. It's the most abrasion resistant stone I have ever seen. It doesn't make slurry even with 200 grit diamond plates. I started lapping it for removing a few millimeters of stone, and after 4 hours of lapping fist with diamond plate and then with sandpaper 36 grit, it didn't abrade. Then I took a rotating disk, I'm not sure how the machine is called, and things got easier.
Then we have the Cretan oilstones-Candia hones-Turkish oilstones. I tried to cut one with a diamond rotating disc, the ones for slate. For a stone 15x5x5 cm, I needed to cut it in two, I destroyed two diamond discs and it finally broke it two. But it's not really abrasion resistant for sandpaper, it can be shaped quite easily.

When we say a stone is hard it might mean many aspects of a stone. Mohs hardness of 3 or 10, it doesn't necessarily means something. And, marble is usually abrasion resistant, even if it's not as hard glass.
The stone on the photos is definitely softer than the dark Llyn Idwal I have, which is as hard as glass, but the Llyn Idwal makes slurry much easier. Its grit is still under investigation, but definitely not a finisher. It can be polished to a very fine degree but then it becomes very slow and it is hydrophobic. After lapping it with a 600 grit diamond plate it works like a 4k stone.

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Originally Posted by Vasilis

Then I took a rotating dick, I'm not sure how the machine is called, and things got easier.

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They're called helicopters.

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Originally Posted by Piet

They're called helicopters.

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From the whole post I guess that's the most interesting part....

Vasilis - one of the confusing things about 'marble' is the blanket-use of the term - not all stone called marble is true marble. The word, after all, stems from the greek word that meas glittering stone, so that is hardly 'scientific' enough for our purposes! Travertine is often called a marble for instance, but it is not - its a sedimentary limestone. A more precise definition is a metamorphosed limestone capable of taking a high polish and composed of mainly calcite or dolomite. However, we don't need to know that dolomite is harder than calcite, or any of the infinite variations in between, or even the the variations of natural stones like novaculites, as we have Bushdoctor's notes to go on.

Bushdoctor has a large range of natural hone stones and is very familiar with them. I know that for a fact. He laps them, and lapping can be seen as a test of abrasion resistance, so that clears up any doubts as to the aptitude of the MOHS scale. I know he lapped novaculites. If this stone was easier to lap than he initially thought - he said 'ver soft' and that it took '15 minutes' to lap - then we can be fairly confidant that is not in the same league.

Piet - this also rules out any doubts concerning different peoples takes on natural rocks - Bushdoctor has his own range of rocks to compare this one to, as we know from many of his previous posts on this forum - we can use foreknowledge if it is applicable!

In short the answers to most of the doubts and queries raised are all there in the original post - you only have to take the time to read it carefully :)

Regards,
Neil

Well, still a mysterious stone, thank you at all for your help, Thank you Neil for share your knowledge with us,

@Adrspach, Sorry, I don't want teas you, but if you can't resist...............

I have understand that you need more pictures of stone in question, but today is too late to take some.

I will try with lemonjuice, like Neil suggest, on back of stone .

No is not beryl and in the pictures you can see the stone on a piece of marble ( Carrara marble )


And thank you again

Here more pics from back and from long and short side. Can this be called laminated ?

Fiddish River, Fiddish River, Fiddish River :w ( like Yellow River song ).

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Not sure, Bushdoctor! It looks like it has cleavage planes in the side photos, and one of the features of laminated marble is the presence of cleavage planes. However, the only other laminated marble I have heard of comes from Rode Island, and this is a mix of marble, slate, and phyllite - the bed of rock is about 3m thick, and has varying thicknesses of sheets (laminations) of the various constituents. Phyllite is a cross between slate and mica schist which is easily split along cleavage planes, slate has the same properties, so I would suppose that a composite of laminated marble would split along the slate/phyllite seams.

Regards,
Neil

Thanks Neil,

I don't post pictures named Fiddish River for the moment, but never say never.:)

All the best my friend

Did you ever find anything else about this stone?

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Originally Posted by Hacker7

Did you ever find anything else about this stone?

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If I'm not mistaken, and I doubt I am as I had a thorough conversation and testing with an expert about this type of stones, they are from Wales, apparently an old man owns the area (I think), cuts the stone himself and sells them in his local market or something like that. They can be in the range of ~7k or excellent finishers that can be super smooth and unbelievably fine, and hard or soft. They also come in a variety of dark lines or dots or shades, so many may mistake them for a Llyn Idwal, or TOS if they have only dots instead of lines, and some others might try to sell them for Charnley forest or light colored Thuringians if they don't have these dark lines.

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Originally Posted by Vasilis

If I'm not mistaken, and I doubt I am as I had a thorough conversation and testing with an expert about this type of stones, they are from Wales, apparently an old man owns the area (I think), cuts the stone himself and sells them in his local market or something like that. They can be in the range of ~7k or excellent finishers that can be super smooth and unbelievably fine, and hard or soft. They also come in a variety of dark lines or dots or shades, so many may mistake them for a Llyn Idwal, or TOS if they have only dots instead of lines, and some others might try to sell them for Charnley forest or light colored Thuringians if they don't have these dark lines.

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Any Idea?

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Originally Posted by Hacker7

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Any Idea?

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If it is hard like a Charnley Forest and similar in quality. I am 98% sure mine in a CF stone and looks similar to yours.

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Originally Posted by rideon66

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If it is hard like a Charnley Forest and similar in quality. I am 98% sure mine in a CF stone and looks similar to yours.

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It could be CF indeed. But I have seen stones similar to the appearance that were something else, from UK again I think.
I remember reading on an old book that "the white Charnley stones were thought of as superior quality" the olden days (don't use me as source, but I expect if you search you'll find what I'm talking about)
Something that makes me wonder if it is indeed a Charnley stone is the lack of the characteristic pink-red-purple line(s) that are present to CF stones. But if it feels like one and shaves like one, well, both of you have got your answer.
And as I regularly say, it you like the shave, names don't matter.

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Originally Posted by Vasilis

It could be CF indeed. But I have seen stones similar to the appearance that were something else, from UK again I think.
I remember reading on an old book that "the white Charnley stones were thought of as superior quality" the olden days (don't use me as source, but I expect if you search you'll find what I'm talking about)
Something that makes me wonder if it is indeed a Charnley stone is the lack of the characteristic pink-red-purple line(s) that are present to CF stones. But if it feels like one and shaves like one, well, both of you have got your answer.
And as I regularly say, it you like the shave, names don't matter.

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The edges are just like my other really hard CF. It feels just like it too. Reacts the same plus. After this sat it a draw for a bit when I got it back out the color had shifted a bit. It does have some green. Very interesting rock.
Attachment 295505 And here is what it looked like when I got it before I cleaned it up. Attachment 295506

Looking at it it still looks not clean of any residues on it. It does look similar to CF but at present state it is hard to say. Is it lapped?

It's lapped and clean. The pic where it is more white gray was after a long soaking in simple green. Stayed that way for some time too. I don't use oil either.

By the way, what's the size? Charnley forest stones tend to be longer than 20cm/8". It's not a rule, but you see it more often than in most other hones.

I want to say it is around 9"+ it is almost the exact same size as one of my older CF stones.

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Originally Posted by Vasilis

By the way, what's the size? Charnley forest stones tend to be longer than 20cm/8". It's not a rule, but you see it more often than in most other hones.

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So I went home and measured my CF. I have one that came as a 6" but labeled and wide, one came as a 7", one as a 9" one as a 9 1/2" and this stone was 8 1/2", but looks like one end was cut rough either later on or when it was made.