Finishing strokes: when, with what and how many?

The purpose of this thread is to gather a sample from this forum regarding finishing strokes. I think that newbies could really benefit from the proven techniques used by the experienced members to hone a shave-ready edge. This is not about regular bevel setting, but rather focused on the final strokes that make all the difference.

Years ago, when I began this obsession, I was getting poor results and became quite discouraged. Fortunately, I had a granddad who was certainly a honemeister before the term was in use (God rest his soul). Watching his buttery technique on a coticule confirmed that I was pressing much harder than his delicate touch. This realization took me to the next level. I started using extremely, light finishing touches resulting in a level of sharpness and performance never before realized.

Finishing strokes are second only to leather stropping for determining the final quality of a SR edge.

Here is when, with what, and how many finishing strokes I use before proceeding to the leather. Perhaps subsequent respondents to this thread will use the same format to keep the sampling organized.


FINISHING STROKE TECHNIQUE

WHEN:
I usually start a few extremely light (less than the blade weight by supporting the razor) X-pattern stropping strokes at the end of my regular edge-leading, honing strokes on the 4K, and continue this practice with the 8K, and 12K stones.

WITH WHAT:
While I do start the finishing process with the stones, the final finisher for me is CrO on balsa. I have an extra long (12x3x3 inch) balsa block that has been leveled with sand paper on a certified granite plate (probably overkill). The large block allows me to easily hold it in the air; once again to apply LESS than blade weight to each stroke. My finishing strokes are very consistent X-pattern with a few heel and toe specific strokes.

HOW MANY:
Many have stated on this forum how difficult it is to OVER hone a razor and this would also apply to finishing strokes. In fact, I think most newbies are not doing enough because they think that a stroke so light must not be doing much. Here is my typical finishing progression. These are NOT honing strokes. Regular honing strokes are performed between these steps. You may use less or none of these with the pyramid approach.

4k stone - 6-8 stropping laps

8k stone - 10-12 stropping laps

12k stone - 12-15 stropping laps

CrO balsa - 20-30 EXTREMELY LIGHT stropping laps

Leather - 60-100 EXTREMELY LIGHT stropping laps

My final advice to newbies is "less is more". Practice getting lighter and more delicate with your touch especially when going for that ultimate finish and you will be rewarded as I was so many years ago. I hope this thread real reveal a common theme and practice among the more experienced members. Good luck.

Am I correct here....are you doing edge leading strokes on the 4k, and then 6-8 back honing strokes? Then you move to the 8k, and do forward honing strokes, followed by 10-12 back honing strokes? And so on and so forth? On each stone, before moving to the next, you finish with back honing strokes?

In my mind, "finishing" strokes are the very last ones on the last hone. IE: on my 12k, or Coti, or Escher, or Charnely, etc. A paste may be subsequently applied, but that depends significantly on the manufacturer and country. Ie: I find some Sheffield's like CrOx, and some American's really like Cerium, but not everyone all the time. YMMV.

I end each stone with 5-10 super light X strokes before I move to the next stone. Then the "finishing" comes on the last stone.

With me it sort of depends. I tend to probably do more than I need. OTOH, I have been doing less and testing rather than more under the blind assumption that I need more. In the case that the razor is not as keen as I want it to be I go back to the hones. I never use paste or spray anymore. Just a personal preference. I've got all that stuff, and my preference isn't 'carved in stone,' so I can't say I won't someday go back to them, but for the foreseeable future, it is the 1k chosera if necessary, 4k single grit norton, 8k single grit norton. Test and shave. If the edge is better than good it is on to an escher 90% of the time or a coticule the other 10% of the time. Depends on my mood.

I used to stick with pyramids but lately have been doing Lynn's circle technique on the chosera and the nortons. Always x strokes on the escher or the coticule. Pressure varies depending on the stage of the game and the grind of the razor but I do agree that light to no pressure at the finishing stages is the way to go. I follow the hone by stropping on leather only and then do HHT with greasy old fine hairs (all I've got) from my hairbrush for the test. When it pops them from heel to point I'm done and I shave. I will try your backstroke technique. I guess in doing circles that is inclusive but I hadn't ever done that beyond doing 'back and forth' strokes when setting bevels. Always interesting for an old dog to try new tricks. Thanks for the post.

For me finishing strokes are just plain old light touch x strokes, often heel-leading 45 degrees or so, on a fine stone. A lot of work has gone into the edge before that, of course. But I tend to keep it fairly simple at the end.

James.

I pick up my standard stone progression and finish always on a Jnat where the number of strokes can very depending on the razor. For me I can feel when the razor is there, no downward pressure when finishing the edge.
My question is how exactly do you know you are doing strokes with less than the weight of the razor?
No down pressure stroke I understand but less than the weight of the razor how do you measure that? If there is less than the weight of the razor pressure on the surface then the bevel will not be making contact.

Of late my edges have gotten much smoother as the result of the lightest pressure I can manage. Some razors seem to like 8 to 10 passes on Balsa pasted with Crox some don't seem to respond. Leather stropping at again the lightest pressure I can maintain good contact followed by about 10 passes very lightly on the heel of my hand. Between shaves I have been having the best luck with nothing more than the heel of my hand. I haven't been doing this long enough(less than 12 shaves) to know when I need to go back to the leather.

Pretty much X strokes on the final stone which is usually the Escher for me or sometimes the Coticule. The number of strokes varies depending on the razor however they are very very light and after 20 strokes I test hoping that's all it needs. Of course there are exceptions like the Kamisori which are totally different in stroke and pressure and some standard razors that just take way more like my TI Damascus and the TI Silverwing.

I think the "less than weight of razor" pressure thing may refer to the *additional* downward pressure on the edge ie lay the razor on the hone ("weight of razor" pressure) and then "zero" the scales. Anything after that is referred to as the "downward pressure".

In fact, the weight of the entire razor will not end up hitting the hone through the edge anyway, as weight load is spread over the spine and the fingers holding the scales. So technically "less than the weight of the razor" in terms of pressure on the edge is kind of a given anyway.

But that is just my take - I could be wrong and certainly do not want to put words in someone else's mouth, so please correct me if I have misinterpreted.

James.

I try to go as light as possible and use 10-20 strokes on my 12k stone. But there are other factors at play, and things don't always go according to plan.

If I used too much pressure early on, then my lightest strokes are less likely to touch the whole edge. I have to go back to some medium pressure x-strokes on a lower grit. Then I can use my lightest pressure progressing from there.

With the lightest pressure, I still aim for a sensation of the razor "catching" the hone on the whole edge. I'm often using some form of modded x-stroke dictated by what the razor seems to want, and by the time I get to 12k, I know what sensation to look for.

I haven't tried stropping strokes, but I might try it at some point if I can ever get some more razors to hone.

Michael

He's talking about finishing on the hone, using "stropping strokes" or edge trailing, Spine leading...Correct...?

I don't think I've ever done that on the rocks before. Has anyone else, What kind of results do you get?

Like TBS and JImmyhad, I normally finish up on my Escher 90% of the time with x strokes, and it's edge leading, very light strokes.
If not the Escher, usually a Jnat, maybe a Coti.....

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

I think the "less than weight of razor" pressure thing may refer to the *additional* downward pressure on the edge ie lay the razor on the hone ("weight of razor" pressure) and then "zero" the scales. Anything after that is referred to as the "downward pressure".

In fact, the weight of the entire razor will not end up hitting the hone through the edge anyway, as weight load is spread over the spine and the fingers holding the scales. So technically "less than the weight of the razor" in terms of pressure on the edge is kind of a given anyway.

But that is just my take - I could be wrong and certainly do not want to put words in someone else's mouth, so please correct me if I have misinterpreted.

James.

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I agree with that explanation the weight is divided between the spine and the bevel/edge in some proportion. I just hope people do not interpret "less than the weight of the razor" as trying to alleviate the edge pressure on the stone to compensate for weight and such.

That less then the "Weight of the Blade" term it is very misleading, if you take out an actual digital scale, I think you might find the same thing I did,, There is no such stroke, if you try and get that light the edge is no longer evenly in contact with the stone....
Once the edge loses even contact with the hone the stroke becomes ineffective...

Please don't take my word for it, take out a scale and test it

This back stroke thing on the hone? I haven't been doing it. What you do Is after the front forward circles you do a few backwards circles??or do you do a backward across the hone stroke???

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Originally Posted by Johnus

This back stroke thing on the hone? I haven't been doing it. What you do Is after the front forward circles you do a few backwards circles??or do you do a backward across the hone stroke???

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IMO, I dont find much difference between standard xstrokes and stropping strokes regarding evening up the edge. One very handy use of the stropping xstroke is that on a coticule - especially narrow ones - it does a fantastic job of keeping the slurry on the hone, where the standard xstroke scoops up and flicks off my slurry.

I only do standard xstrokes on water when it doesn't matter as much.

With the circles question - if I'm understanding you correctly - is you would do circles one side, then the other and then either standard xstrokes or stropping xstrokes to even up the edge with weight of the blade pressure ie. enough to keep the spine and edge on the hone and thats it. I do this at every stage to make sure, and it works well.

regards Alex

Here are a few answers to my opening thread.

My honing strokes are done on a table using some pressure, sometimes a littler greater than the weight of the blade. A good way to visualize a stroke with less than the weight of the razor is to tilt the balsa or 12k stone surface toward the ground and strop by barely touching the surface. This angle for me is between 45-90 degrees. Incidently, the finishing strokes on manufactured DE's are done vertically for similar reasons. I rarely put the balsa on a table anymore for finishing strokes unless I think the edge needs a bit more pressure.

My finishing strokes are on CrO balsa, handheld, with the surface angled so as to relieve the weight of the blade from the equation. You can finish the edge very gently using this technique.

Yes, and you are right. Technically, the only finishing strokes that matter are the last ones.

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Originally Posted by zib

He's talking about finishing on the hone, using "stropping strokes" or edge trailing, Spine leading...Correct...?

I don't think I've ever done that on the rocks before. Has anyone else, What kind of results do you get?

Like TBS and JImmyhad, I normally finish up on my Escher 90% of the time with x strokes, and it's edge leading, very light strokes.
If not the Escher, usually a Jnat, maybe a Coti.....

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The use of stropping strokes at the end of each progression is a good habit because it removes any micro-burr that may be present after the last edge leading stroke and prepares the bevel nicely for the next grit. It is not essential to finish with stropping strokes but I just prefer doing it that way.

:rant:If you want to see some big arguments from years ago do a search for "burr". :rant:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

:rant:If you want to see some big arguments from years ago do a search for "burr". :rant:

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That's OK, I will pass on big arguments over whether a burr is present after an edge leading stroke. I have created them intentionally and viewed them under the microscope. They can be present, albeit usually from too much pressure or bad technique. That's why I used the phrase may be present. And while the stropping motion may not be necessary, it is the stroke that will definitely remove any burr if present. On that point I am pretty sure we can all agree.

Burr or no burr - finishing with a few stropping laps certainly does no harm.

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Originally Posted by Gammaray

Burr or no burr - finishing with a few stropping laps certainly does no harm.

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No argument from me. Whatever works. :tu

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Originally Posted by Gammaray

Burr or no burr - finishing with a few stropping laps certainly does no harm.

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Actually No, I would not agree, nor would the Voerhaven papers, every Barber Hone maker, nor every Coticule, Thuringen, and Escher instruction sheet out there, and every Vintage Barber's manual... Now if it works for you go for it, but all those sources disagree.. They all show edge leading strokes and the Voerhaven papers explain why pretty well..

The only Hone I have found any advantge to a few stropping strokes then finishing with a edge leading is the 30k Shapton but still the final stroke is edge leading...

I think the finer the finisher there is less negative effect that stroping strokes may cause so experiment and see what your face tells you...

Also another thing that I have found is that the more attention that is paid to the honing and finishing routine the better the edge becomes regardless of the method :) ie: When people take the time to actually slow down pay attention and experiment and try to push the envelope they usually do... Unfortunately they sometimes think it was the new method or stone instead of the attention they paid to the task :p

[QUOTE=gssixgun;983123]Actually No, I would not agree, nor would the Voerhaven papers, every Barber Hone maker, nor every Coticule, Thuringen, and Escher instruction sheet out there, and every Vintage Barber's manual... Now if it works for you go for it, but all those sources disagree.. They all show edge leading strokes and the Voerhaven papers explain why pretty well..

I am not familiar with all the sources that you are citing, but I am sure they are credible. It is interesting to note that the Japanese blade masters use both a leading and stropping stroke (forward then back) for all grit levels. Their technique certainly has stood the test of time yielding some of the sharpest blades on earth. But both the barbers of old and the Japanese achieved an excellent edge through many varied techniques. As you have stated the attention to touch and consistency is so important to achieving this goal.

Today we have the benefit of SEM that has helped to remove some of the guess work and mysticism associated with sharpening. This has led to superb DE and other modern razors blades. It is interesting to note that the highly automated sharpening process for DE's grinds in the stropping direction rather than using the more aggressive edge leading geometry.

In fact, your commentary has made me think of an experiment. Could a razor be completely sharpened using ONLY stropping strokes? Perhaps I will try that sometime. I think it may be possible, but will no doubt take much longer than edge leading strokes.

[QUOTE=Gammaray;983136]

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Actually No, I would not agree, nor would the Voerhaven papers, every Barber Hone maker, nor every Coticule, Thuringen, and Escher instruction sheet out there, and every Vintage Barber's manual... Now if it works for you go for it, but all those sources disagree.. They all show edge leading strokes and the Voerhaven papers explain why pretty well..

I am not familiar with all the sources that you are citing, but I am sure they are credible. It is interesting to note that the Japanese blade masters use both a leading and stropping stroke (forward then back) for all grit levels. Their technique certainly has stood the test of time yielding some of the sharpest blades on earth. But both the barbers of old and the Japanese achieved an excellent edge through many varied techniques. As you have stated the attention to touch and consistency is so important to achieving this goal.

Today we have the benefit of SEM that has helped to remove some of the guess work and mysticism associated with sharpening. This has led to superb DE and other modern razors blades. It is interesting to note that the highly automated sharpening process for DE's grinds in the stropping direction rather than using the more aggressive edge leading geometry.

In fact, your commentary has made me think of an experiment. Could a razor be completely sharpened using ONLY stropping strokes? Perhaps I will try that sometime. I think it may be possible, but will no doubt take much longer than edge leading strokes.

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The Japanese Honing method uses both and the Pressure change during it is pretty different then a western razor, as is the bevel
As to sharpening that way using only stropping stokes yes it is possible, you have to give it a try to see where the problems arise, which I am pretty sure you will find quite quickly in the edge Geometry..

I am really not so sure about the "More Agressive" statement in regards to Edge Leading, when I really want to cut metal doing restroration I don't use Edge Leading strokes I tend to use Circles and Japanese style strokes and a variation of the Japanese style ..

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Originally Posted by Gammaray

Could a razor be completely sharpened using ONLY stropping strokes? Perhaps I will try that sometime.

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For what it's worth, I hone with edge trailing strokes on most all occasions (without tapes, if that matters). I will sometimes use edge leading strokes on 1k stone.

As far as burr formation, I have a noticed that certain razors are more likely to form a burr than others. Some examples:
Filarmonica Sub-cero, 7/8, full hollow: has bevel so thin that it's almost invisible. With usual routine, I have never noticed a burr formation.
TI Silverwing 5/8, full hollow: has a bevel about 3/4 mm or so. Burr did not form above 1k stones.
Razor of unknown origin, 4/8, half hollow. Bevel of about 1 mm or so with softer steel. Burr formation is much more frequent and sometimes at higher grit stones.

For some razors, I have found that edge leading strokes tends to consistently reduce the occurrence of burr formation.

At the end of the day, they all shave fantastically well when honed with using almost all edge trailing strokes.
Whether you prefer it or not, is something you'd have to explore and find out for you own.

Cheers.

Well thinking about it, when we go to balsa with diamond paste/spray or chrom-ox we do trailing strokes. So I guess it is applicable to a rock. Like I said before, if it is working for you, that is all that is important.

Keeping in mind that the thread title is concerned with the actual finish strokes, coupled with the fact that the basic tenet here at SRP is "fewer is better" and "less is more", I am convinced that the finish stroke should be as delicate as possible and as few as necessary. For many of us, the finish stroke might be any combination of edge-leading/spine-leading strokes and hopefully it will be the right combination for best shave results.

The quest for the right combination is my driving force.

Jerry
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Just had a flash-back about finish strokes. Quite awhile ago, gssixgun posted that he uses the 3-2-1 finish where he ends the honing with 3 edge-leading strokes followed by 2 spine-leading strokes followed by 1 edge-leading stroke.

I have used this finish method many times and have no complaints. I actually enjoy finishing 3-2-1. Perhaps Glen can fill in any blanks about the 3-2-1 finish since it is his idea.

Jerry
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See post #21 Jerry :)


But if you want the whole story :p

Back at the 2009 NC meet up I was talking with Don from SRD and he said he was getting pretty good results from finishing with stropping strokes on his 30K Shapton.
When I got home I started messing with it and I finally came up with the 3-2-1 it seems to work very well to keep the harshness off the 30k finisher..

The Voerhaven Paper and micrographs were always in the back of my mind when working on this, which is why I kept experimenting until I had it with an edge leading last stroke..

Over the next year I tried this on just about every finisher you can name, but the only one that I saw an advantage from was the Shapton 30k.. Sometimes I try a 3-3-3 finish on the Naniwa 12k and I think it works but other times I think it is a waste of time...

The real trick is the time and attention to the edge, the more you mess with it the better you get :) it ain't Voodoo if you want to get good at honing then hone more...

Just to echo some great points already made.
Slow down & pay attention to what's happening at the edge.
Keep it delicate as the edge is a delicate thing.
Don't place faith in any one method as it will fail at some point on a razor that requires a variation. I've yet to find a need to use stropping strokes on a stone but when/if I need to I'll try it.

I don't have a finishing routine other than to try & make the edge as fine & as sharp as the particular steel will tolerate.
I rarely but sometimes finish on pastes or sprays. More often I use those before finishing on a fine stone & not for every razor. How many strokes I do on that fine stone is variable as is whether I use slurry, water or just dry
I use magnification a lot to see my edge & then if it cuts arm hair the way I like I will shave test it. Often the finishing happens during that shave test & that can simply be 3 dry X strokes on my finest finisher before a restrop & back to the shave. Sometimes I wish I did have a formula that worked for every razor but it might not be as much fun. :)

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Just to echo some great points already made.
. :)

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Onimaru, that last post was an echo. haha

One tip that helps me is getting a good visual. I do not normally wear glasses, but If I do put on readers when honing then those last finishing strokes jump out with detail for me, especially the wave in front of the edge and wash-up of water over the blades edge with edge leading strokes which are both indicators of blade to stone contact. Alx

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Originally Posted by alx

Onimaru, that last post was an echo. haha

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LOL... , Fixed.
My old powerbook has doubleclickitis . :)

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Also another thing that I have found is that the more attention that is paid to the honing and finishing routine the better the edge becomes regardless of the method :) ie: When people take the time to actually slow down pay attention and experiment and try to push the envelope they usually do... Unfortunately they sometimes think it was the new method or stone instead of the attention they paid to the task :p

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Once i learned that simple fact everything changed... :)

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Sometimes I wish I did have a formula that worked for every razor but it might not be as much fun. :)

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That sums it up for me - 10 strokes, 100 strokes, forwards, backwards, upside down - Whatever makes YOUR face happy is the best method for you. That said I'm inclined to believe those with a few (thousand) more sharp razors and happy customers.

These are my findings too. I don't do anything special to the edge, I lighten up the pressure as much as I can while still making nice contact with my finisher. With my 10k SS I am experimenting with stroke counts, but I usually do around 30 laps after a 8k Snow white. With my Jnat, I start with a 8k edge, and go to light slurry diluting slowly as I go, I finish with about 10 strokes on clear water. With my coti I do the same as the Jnat, and that works just fine. If I had to guess, I make about 100 strokes total, maybe more maybe less depending on the razor, but I have a small coti, and the Jnat is a slow and hard stone in razor size.

What is clear so far from this post is that there are several methods which may produce excellent results. This is why I love this hobby. The journey, the experimentation is really what makes it interesting. However, there are some common themes from this thread worth emphasizing.

1. "Less is more" but that means less pressure not necessarily fewer strokes on the 8k plus, pasted balsa, or leather.

2. Finishing strokes are spine leading at a minimum by the time you hit the pastes or leather.

3. Newbies should acquire a lighter touch for the finishing strokes to achieve the best edge.

Thanks to all for your input.

Gammaray

Usually 7 to 15 laps, edge leading, on a barber hone or "Frankonian". It's often closer to 7 than 15. About half the time add in around 80 to 100 laps on newspaper, spine leading.

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Originally Posted by Sticky

Usually 7 to 15 laps, edge leading, on a barber hone or "Frankonian". It's often closer to 7 than 15. About half the time add in around 80 to 100 laps on newspaper, spine leading.

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I too have found newspaper to be an excellent finisher when my best strop is not available.

I don't hone near as many razors as some of you do, only the ones I shave with and with a number of them being pretty bad shavers I do more honing than I sometimes wish to.
ONE thing I have learned, no 2 razors hone up up or finish the same way, if you all think about it, you will know that is true.
It's a facinating hobby, takes patients and a will to experiment always.

Just my IMO, tinkersd