I don't have a 20K Sue yet. My final lapping step on my high grit nanis includes using a well worn 600 grit DMT submerged in soapy water. The stone surface is glass smooth when finished and the honing is a great deal of fun!
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I don't have a 20K Sue yet. My final lapping step on my high grit nanis includes using a well worn 600 grit DMT submerged in soapy water. The stone surface is glass smooth when finished and the honing is a great deal of fun!
Thanks mate, the tendencies seem to be to use a slightly higher grit lapping/truing stone that does not leave scatches on stones like the high nanis and the gok 15 or 20. A useful thread gentlemen.
I used a 400/600/1200 Atoma to lap mine and finished with 1000-1200 W/D on plate glass. The surface is like a mirror. The Atoma is not at too much risk if you use lots and lots of water, just rinse the slurry off every few seconds whenever it becomes "not watery". Thick synth slurry can indeed damage an Atoma.
Cheers, Steve
I used the atoma under running water with no issues. 400 then 1200. Bob did you break in the dmt properly. Once broken in it shouldn't leave deep scratches unless you are using plenty of pressure
Hey Ed, I believe I have broken it in. I used it on the nani 1000 lobster deluxe, which is 207 x 66 x 34, so I gave it a good 20 minutes figure 8's under running water, then I used it as one normally would, as a precursor to honing, whether or not it was needing a grid lap or not. I just feel when I carefuly examine the 15 and 20k suehiros, sure it's very much mirror smooth, but I still have what is a pedantic view of barely visible scratches. Bare in mind mate, the things are mirror sharp and I am as I mentioned, being bloody manic about it, so i thought of buying the atoma 1200. I'd love to hear someone say for certain that it would not be a wise purchase, and stick to the 325. Either way HAD rules and I want perfection. I once conferred with Murray Carter who emphatically said, 'keep diamonds away from waterstones'. I like to hear the options. Advice is welcome,
Cheers Bob
For breaking in a dmt I would use steel not a softer water stone and give it a good grinding with pressure. I got a knife and ground an entire new bevel after it had been breadknived. Was a hard steel and took some time. Then just to be sure I hit it with some old steel pole. Honestly there isn't much difference between the dmt and atoma 1200. No matter what you use you are going to leave scratches unless you are using something like an ark witch is super hard and super smooth to face it with after lapping
I had one for a while, but no longer do. I couldn't get any better results with it than good jnats, but it did make a shave ready razor just fine. You don't need any expensive lapping plate for it. I use a worn atoma 400 for all of my fine stones (jnats included, and I rub them with another stone if I think they should get a burnished surface). If you want to go out of the box, one of the finer atomas would be fine. Ordering in yen from toolsfromjapan is the best way to go, off of a credit card. the credit card's currency conversion is a LOT more economical than paypal's. It's 3 or 4% better in price than if you select dollars on any japanese site...just order in yen if you order from japan and fund with credit card.
That would be about $75 with shipping based on current conversion rates. Still not cheap, but a lot better than the shapton lapping plate, which has a price that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Shapton's plates don't have indefinite longevity, either, and they don't suggest that they do. They are to be avoided if money counts at all.
A very hard natural stone will work well to break in a diamond plate also. I have a few that a diamond plate will barely raise a slurry on!
Thanks Ed, it puts things in perspective now. I never looked at it that way before.
thanks Bob
Bill, from my experiences with the Gok 15k & 20k is when they arrive brand new, to avoid all these various questions, grid them properly with a ruler and a carpenters pencil, and use a mellow DMT325 (Which I only just learned) and lap them until you have a clean stone. When you have that, you won't need to lap it for hundreds of razors. For an amateur like me, I won't need to touch it for a year, seriously.
So how do the other suehiro line of hones compare to say the chosera line. I have a chosera 1k, I'm looking to get a 400-800 hone and a new set to replace my norton 4/8. I've been thinking to go chosera 3k and 5k. Now that I have the gokumyo 20k, I'm wondering if the suehiro lower grit hones would be a better option. Any suggestions?
Choseras are great, i think you cant go wrong. I have the higher grit SG 10,15,20 and they work great. I have 400, 600, 1,2,3 and 5 choseras and love em. Pricey but great stones. Never used low grit suehiros so wont comment on those.
What would you suggest to bridge the gap between a chosera 5k and a ss 12k, or is that jump acceptable? I don't think I'll pay the money for a chosera 10k. I can continue using the Norton 8k, but I think I want to try something else, possibly a naniwa 8k. I was researching the suehiro line of hones other than the gokumyo line, and did not find much.
I use 1k Chosera
3k SS
5k Shapton Pro
8k Shapton Pro
10k SS
20k Suehiro
Works great every time and it is a cheaper progression.
I hated my 3k Chosera, it self slurried a lot and that is something that I do not like a razor hone do.
Anything in the 1-8k range that is proven to work for honing razors will do, the 20k is fast enough to manage the jump.
I do 5k chosera to 10k suehiro easily. The 10 k is a bit less expensive than the chosera 10. 5 to 12 is big jump. But 5 to 8k norton to 12 is easy as well. IMO i would use the 8 and save some $ but thats your choice.
I have the 20K and use it as a final finisher. love it.
We are all happy with the Gokumyo 20k, my list is 1k lobster deluxe Nani , the 4k Nani Lobster deluxe, the 6k king , the nani SS 8k, and King Goldstone 8k, the 10k Icebear, followed by the Gokumyo 15 K and to finish with the 20k gokumyo 20 K. It's an interesting list but I seem to prosper with it. Cheers lads. I have a dmt 325 and an Atoma 400. I think I'm just about done guys.
I like the norton, I just feel I haven't tried anything else to compare it with. I think I'll try:
1k chosera (have)
3k ss (need)
5k pro (need)
8k pro (need)
12k ss (have)
20k (have)
I feel these 3 new stones will do the trick. My 4/8 norton might have been contaminated at some point. The white 4k side has reddish discoloration and the 8k side has an odd oval-shaped stain. I'll post pics tomorrow. I'm sure it isn't negatively effecting my honing, but I'm at the point where I want to try something different.
This is the progression I use when finishing on the G20
Naniwa Professional P310(1k)
Professional P330(3k)
Naniwa Hayabusa 4K
Naniwa Fuji 8K
Finish on the 20K
About 30 laps on the G20 and the 8K scratches are gone.
Gee Bill, most blokes only dream of a collection like yours. How do you find the 10k SG to 15k SG. I have a 10k Icebear, then the 15 & 20k SG but I am interested in how you go with those 3 stones. sometimes I use the icebear with clear water with very few strokes, just to get to the Suehiros. Your thoughts mate?
My setup is as follows
Chosera 800
Chosera 2k
Chosera 5k
SS 10k
Suehero 20k
The 10k to 20k jump is no problem and I seldom need more than 15 strokes on the 20k
This is the first synthetic that gives me a smooth shave, I love it.
I bet you thought about getting the chosera 10k! Bloody expensive stone. I have only yesterday, decided on keeping things in order, so my last three stones now are the 10k Suehiro, then the 15k and finally the 20k, works well and should do at the price...lol. In reality I didn't really need the 15k, but, got it anyway....HAD I guess.
I have been thinking of the chosera 10k instead of the SS10k but the current setup works for me. The SS10k gives a very shiny bevel and shows any sub 10k scratches witch is the feedback I need at that point.
I thought the same thing about the Chosera 10k. But I figured I'd be better off with the Suehiro 10k to go with the other two (15k & 20k). The Suehiro is $200 in Australian dollars, where the Chosera is $335 bucks. It's the usual case of what you need and what you want, and I fail the test big time! But I won't be taking on the Chosera 10k no matter how nice it may be....lol
Untrue. I have a full set of shaptons (less the burple) that I used for a good 15 years prior to discovering jnats. These stones lived day in and out in wild temperature and humidity swings. They were used for that application most demanding flatness: the flattening of chisel and plane blade backs.
Nothing changed their shape except abrasion.
Absolutely, jgjgjg, the whole conversation about stones and dishing as a result of razor honing is convoluted. Stones of say, 8k and above take an awful lot of work to 'dish'. I have used naniwa SS 8k, 10k, King 8k 10k and Suehiro 15k and 20k, for a while now, and I check my hones with a straight edge and a feeler gauge (.oo5 of a mm) and if I am not 100% sure of them being flat I grid them and lap then with DMT325 & or Atoma 400. As you say abrasion is what will change the surface of the mentioned stones. Amateur users like me, find it hard to see them dishing out at all really, even the clay based, softer kings.
It's not dishing per se. I have 5 Shapton Pro stones, and they DO indeed move with humidity and temperature changes. Is not like they're going to warp 1/16" or anything, it's just a few thousandths of an inch. Enough so a pencil grid will come off only in the middle or only on the ends if the stone is lapped. I find giving the stones a couple minutes of soak helps to combat this. It happens a lot more when they are used splash and go style by running them under a sink faucet when the water used isn't room temperature. Giving them a quick soak a couple minutes before use lets them temperature equalize and they repeat - or I should say, stay flat - fairly well then.
I agree with Jimmy, eKretz and Stefan - some of these stones do exhibit expansion/contraction.
My shapton glass stones did it. No point in flattening them after a honing session as next morning they would be out of true again. Oddly, not in the same places though, i.e.: where one was high in the middle one day, it would be high on the sides another day. Sometimes there was a series of low and high patches.
My superstones all had this differential movement too. Easier to lap it out on these as the stones are 'soft' in comparison to the glass stones.
My Shapton Pro is always low in the middle - but at least it is consistent. Part of it could be hone wear, but when I lap it and hone a flat thin tool blade in just the middle of the hone - say an inch wide or less, the next day when I lap it all the middle is dished again.
My Choseras do not do this - they stay flat for quite some time and only honing on them dishes them, but the 10k is prone to crazing all over the surface - replaced once, the replacement does the same thing.
My Naniwa 8k Snow White - a very hard stone, somewhat like the SG20k - also exhibits some differential movement which is a chore to lap out because of its hardness.
My SG20k is much like the snow white - differential expansion/contraction, but is harder to lap by a fraction.
The room I use is more or less of a constant heat and humidity, so I guess its a case of YMMV.
Regards,
Neil
How many laps do you normally use on the 20k?
I've found that less is more, usually 10-20 laps. Sometimes more, but that's with really, really hard steels.
Just re the G 20, When it arrived 6 months or so ago, I lapped it. It took a good half hour, I put a grid on it with pencil and under running water used an atoma 400, it took serious effort to clean and true this stone. to ultimately check its true I used a steel straight edge and a .o005 feeler gauge. So, with moderate to light use this stone has simply not dished to any detectable degree, so if you true the thing properly it will take plenty of punishment. I have had a question about using it for a one stone hone. IMHO you could do it, by why would you want to? I might be old fashioned, but with this stone I DONT work on the writing side of this stone an never change, When I'd done the truing with the atoma 400, I wanted it perfect so I used some 1600 wet/dry and it was flat and mirror finished ready to go. That's my way with prepping this stone, using it and truing it. Cheers Bobski
Re the number of strokes, with a carbon steel blade 25-30 strokes. Stainless is 40, I have recently had 3 stainless blades (New) and they respond well with a little pressure for the 1st 10 strokes then weight of the blade until ,say, 40 strokes,
thanks guys. Bobski
I bought mine at least a couple of years ago and mine still is not flat! I drew gridlines and lapped away. When I got a sufficient amount of lapped honing surface, I stopped. Gridlines on the corners remained in place as I really saw no point removing so much more of the hone to get access to the entire surface. Even though I regularly refresh the surface, I have yet to remove the gridlines from the corners. This hone is going to last a lot longer than I will.
Regarding number of strokes used, I seem to use fewer than others. I see no point in doing more than 10-15 strokes. This is a very fast hone that removes a lot of steel very quickly.
Many now are going from 8k to 20k,using the Suehiro stone as a panacea for skill, if that is the case, it takes a few more strokes which I proposed. For myself, coming through 8k,10k,15k then 20k. then like Utopian the numbers on the finishing hone reduce. I mention stainless because it was last week and was decidedly hard. The 20k should stay as a polishing finishing stone, not some magical cure, jumping from 8K to 20k, sure you can do it, but 12 strokes after jumping 8k to 20k is a bit of a stretch. Basically the number of strokes, depends on your hones and skill, just MHO. Cheers
Are we changing our bevel setting hone, the new 1k King.
Are we happier now to set bevels with naniwa 4k's or shapton 2k's. I'm starting to mess with things and end up with the Suehiro 10k on and up to the 20k. seems like a change of feel. any thoughts gents? Bobski