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This is why I'm more than happy stopping with my translucent Arkie. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy trying different stones as much as the next guy, but my translucent seems to be the perfect stone for how I like my edges.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Like Stefan and DaveW I tend to stick with the edge off of my hone of choice. For me it is the y/g or b/g escher. I have tried a lot of different hones and I will be the first to admit that I could shave comfortably ,for the rest of my life, with an edge off of the Norton 8k followed by 10 round trips on chrom-ox. I prefer the edge off the y/g to that I've had off of other hones. J-nat included. Not 'sharper' necessarily but 'just right' for my particular needs. Nothing wrong with using paste, spray, abrasive film .... whatever works to give each individual the edge they prefer AFAIC.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
They'll need to start with selling their used car instead of trading it in the next time! I figure that over the last 6 years, between woodworking and shaving, I've been through at least $5,000, though I have probably recovered about $1,000 selling off stones that I'm no longer using.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
No matter how many times I get a sharper edge with chromium oxide, I'll probably rarely use it. There is something satisfying about pushing the stones as far as you can get them to go. Intellectually, it is a lot more satisfying, too, the something for nothing feel you get when you get a very nice edge off of a natural stone that has fairly large particles.
I'm not a fisherman but I think a good analogy is catching a 30 pound fish with 5 pound test line. Pushing the stone as far as you can get it and then trying again and again until you see if it is you or the stone. A sport within itself. Not everybody's cup of tea but for those of us who are into it, like you said, very satisfying when we get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
Perhaps the other thing that happens is that once the HAD hits an equilibrium the edges off the stones start to train you, rather than the other way around. You get used to the edges you get, start preferring them, start adjusting your shaving technique to suit the edge and so on. There's nothing wrong with that of course, as long as the edges do their thing and shave well, and in fact may be the desirable equilibrium state - the perfect balance between a man, his edges, and his hones. Different stones, razors, experience levels may tinker with the location of that equilibrium point, but so long as that point is located in the "good" regions of the shaving graph, it's all good! :)
James.
The stones, at least the japanese barber hone that I mention, are about the last step I can go before I get any weepers. As in I can sever hair with them with or against the grain, but no weepers, at all.
The training edges comment is try, and dare I say it, but as you become a daily shaver, you can deal with a consistent edge better than you could when you started and had to have a very sharp edge to prevent catches, etc.
The consistent edge if it starts uniform will stay that way for a very very long time on a good clean broken in strop. 50 shaves or more. When I was a powder shaver, I was constantly guessing whether or not I needed to go refresh the edge because I was used to that straight off the powder feel.
But now it's the 50 shave edge, the comfortable one that doesn't cause weepers even if you need to shave quickly, and one that feels the same every day off the leather. No thinking about it, no pulling the first stroke halfway down your cheek, having a distaste for the feel of it and pausing and slumping your shoulders.
I don't know if I'd go as far as calling pastes and sparys a crutch Stefan, but to each his own. Many guys, especially new guys may not be able to afford these expensive natural stones, Escher and Jnats especially. Pastes, sprays and films will get you there on the cheap. I know for me, some edges are too keen, Some Jnats, Shapton 16k, and a maybe a few others. I like finishing off with the Escher to kind of smooth out the edge. Crox works well too...Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
I really like the .50 diamond spray on wool felt, crox on leather, and the CBN. I've used CBN liquid on a PHIG before with interesting results. It's just another medium. I don't particually care for the abrasive films, but I think they're fine to use. I think a lot of guys look down on pastes and sprays like cheating. I don't think that's something we want to convey.
Rich,Quote:
Originally Posted by zib
notice I said super fine pastes, such as the 0.125 CBN and I believe may be even lower. I have nothing against 0.5 diamond spray I like the edges off it, but I do not get improvement after my finisher anymore. What I mean by crutches is of one has to go down to 0.1 or 0.05 CBN to get the edge, it just means the razor has to be worked more on the 8k lvl and up, assuming the bevel had been set correctly.
Ill take the crutches for now, im definately not going to chase a jnat that can deliver the same results they are way to expensive to chase a good one. Nevertheless i would very much like to have a couple to experiment with them. A member here honed a razor for me on a jnat and the edgeQuote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
is very nice and smooth, but that said the same razor i honed previously on thuri followed with cbn and the edge was just as good or perhaps better, with very good edge retention.
I have what was sold to me as a translucent black arkansas stone, and out of the stones that I've used and own it provides me the sharpest and longest lasting edges. However, it is more than a little crisp on my face, and it takes several shaves to mellow out. Recently I purchased a small dark blue E&Co. stone that I go to after my arkie for about 15 or 20 strokes. After that, I find the edge to be right where I like it. I also tried the E&Co after both my 8k Norton and my coticule, and I was not impressed with the edge at all........ So, to reiterate what some other members have already touched on, the Escher isn't a magical stone. You have to bring your A-game to the Escher to get its full benefit.
What attracted me to eschers to begin with, besides reading about them on the forums, was that they were labeled as being specifically for razors. Shaptons, Nortons .... synthetic stones in general, are made with tools, chisels, plane blades in mind. We use them and they work , but the idea that a stone was specifically recomended for razors was what brought me to the eschers. At that time there weren't many members who had them and the ones that did used them water only.
I read the instructions and decided that I'd follow them. They called for a light slurry. Shortly thereafter the coticule guys were getting into the dulicot thing and I messed with that with the coti and the escher. Anyway, the escher is a razor stone as is the coticule. The escher is the best one AFAIC. May not give the sharpest edge ..... or maybe it will, in the right hands .... but it gives the most comfortable/sharp edge for my particular physiognomy. :hmmm:
Well, I sold it. Here on the classifieds, it went up and then it sold and got reclassified off the member classifieds quickly. Knee jerk, maybe. I told my wife I would never buy an escher because she knows how many stones I already have, and she knows how much they cost. So last night when she caught a glimpse of a stone she never saw before, I said "yeah, that's an escher, I just sold it". She was pissed!! :) Not pissed that I sold it, but that I had ever bought it in the first place.
I did have one last shave from a fresh edge, one that I had honed as I was taking pictures of it to sell. This time dry, which resulted in about the same keenness as light pressure wet, though the stone prefers much more to be used wet and releases less stuff if it is used wet, and none with light pressure wet.
I will give the stone one thing, and that is it is definitely capable of more than I thought at first, and while I can still get edges a little bit more keen from my japanese hone, it is uncanny how closely I shaved on purpose this morning and how I have no irritation from it. Not even in the places that sometimes give me trouble if I shave close (the little pockets of hair just left and right of my chin and just above chin level). No barber would've used half its thickness if it was a bad stone, though, I suspect all along it's really just a matter of learning the stone. And it was definitely barber used, no tool or knife use would've left the surface swayed like it was before i lapped it, but without any marks on it.
But I have learned other stones already, and keeping a $400 stone around that I don't use every single time, and that could fall and break...it all just tipped toward selling it.
It's always nice to give everything a try, though. It cost me a few bucks to try it in the exchange of buying and selling, but now I know something I was curious about.
The black trans wouldn't happen to be one of the black trans stones from natural whestone would it? As someone with a super sensitive face, I've been impressed with just how much improvement an ark honed edge will take in sharpness, but they will razorburn me a lot easier than this escher edge would.Quote:
Originally Posted by myersn024
I bought one of the black trans stones from natural whetstone, and figured that it would be like a piece of coal with some translucence (anyone who has ever seen the shiny side of coal knows what I'm talking about), but it's a bizzarre combination of aggressive cutting, tiny pores (more like a black stone) and super density (like a translucent stone). I haven't used it enough on razors to come up with a final opinion about it, and put it in the classifieds to offset the escher purchase (that reminds me, I can go take it out of the classifieds now.
At any rate, were I to keep the escher stone, or if the buyer finds it unsatisfactory and I take it back, that's what I'd do with it, too. It makes a remarkably soft edge.
Yes, I purchased it from Natural Whetstones and have been extremely happy with it...... once I got it lapped flat. Talk about a PITA! I wasn't sure what to expect when I purchased it as I had never seen or heard of a translucent black Arkansas stone. What I received appears to be a translucent stone that's gray in color with darker gray splotches throughout; it's definitely one of the most unique looking stones I've ever seen, much less owned. It's edges are very very keen, and while they do mellow quickly enough, they benefit greatly from several passes on my E&Co. I touched up one of my favorite razors earlier this week, and after about ten laps on the 8k I used the trans black Arkie for about 100 passes. Then I did 20 x strokes on my E&Co, and the shave was the best I've had in a while. I'm very happy with my purchases thus far.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
FWIW, I did find that despite being a slow cutter that the surface of my trans black glazed over quite quickly and the edges I was getting from it weren't as good as I remembered them being. So, I recently took my credit card sized DMT 1200 and de-glazed the surface, and it made a world of difference in the stone's performance. You definitely want to keep the surface from getting clogged. Also, I only use Smith's honing solution with my stone. I haven't tried actual oil, but given the edges that I'm getting I have no real reason to mess with success.
Here's a pic of my trans black.
Attachment 105136
That looks like a nice stone. I think it might be a bit finer than the one I got, but the density of mine is pretty high (2.85 specific gravity), so I may need to just work it a while and see what it turns into.
I got a black norton stone not long after, and it also has just a bit of translucence at the corners, but is also a good stone. Very abrasive for a stone as fine as it is, but maybe not quite as fine.
I've always wanted to try a true black Arkie, but my HAD has gone into remission since purchasing the trans black and E&Co.
Meyers
I agree deglaze Tranlucences and Surgical Blacks with a 600 DMT. Gives a nice crisp keen comfortable edge that I shave off of. No leather.
The Escher is a Magical stone it gives a smooth shave.
Only nice rocks do that. People used to reffer to special rocks
as magical. And they used to treat them with respect for the power they had.
That's what i heard from a freind who like nice rocks.
You have a good point! The magic for me regarding Eschers is that it is really hard to get anything off them but a smooth buttery edge. With many finishers, it is easy to go too far, but I find it very hard to do with an Escher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Suile
That is not just my opinion either. Several old literature sources recommended German water stones for student barbers and for seasoned ones as well who had the tendancy to overhone.
So many great hones available today, but as Jimmy said the Escher is definitely a "razor hone"!
Here are a couple of pages from Moler's Barber Manual circa 1929, recommending the "German water hone" for inexperienced honers because it "won't overhone." ;Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingfish
Attachment 105242Attachment 105243
I think Jimmy and Sham attracted me to Eschers. :beer1:Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
I'd have to say I put more time in on my Escher's than any other finisher, maybe that's why I prefer the edges I get off them. They are silky smooth. It's hard to remember when I first shaved off one, but I'm sure it took some tweaking, I doubt I got it out of the box as they say.
I think Escher has a place in everyone's honing arsenal, like Coticule. Those are two stones that imo, are a right of passage. I also like the Nostalgic aspect of Escher, which is part of the reason I got into this hobby. These old time stones, with the old labels on them are cool, collectable and still functional. I bet E&Co never imagined that people would be paying big bucks for them today.
I've been thinking, how did they get past a razor sharp? but it is simple.....a coticule and a Escher. and this razor is shap. many still do today. Two hundred years...
Yup, those two have influenced quite a few, me included:)Quote:
Originally Posted by zib
The question actually has a different answer and gets very confusing to us now..Quote:
Originally Posted by strawinski
First off "They" didn't get the razor sharp, is was sharp when they bought it, many companies relied on their reputation of having a smooth shaving edge from the box...
Most Barber's and everyday men simply "Maintained the edge of the razor, and as we have re-learned today this can be done quite easily with any of those Stones and Hones.. There are many on this forum that have razors that have been shaving smoothly for years that are Maintained with one stone or a Barber's hone..
There is also a lost profession from the old days called a Cutler, who everyone turned to, for actual "Sharpening" they were the ones that fixed blades, much like we have what we call "Honemiesters" now...
We buy blades today that are in terrible shape, and make them back into shavers, that wasn't the case when straight razors were popular, heck it wasn't even the case on this forum 5 years ago.. There were plenty of NOS razors that simply required a quick touch up to be shave ready available on e-Bay for low money..
Now we are basically scrapping the bottom of the supply barrel and it requires way more work to find razors of that Straight..
Straight razor shaving today has changed quite a bit from the past...
Great posts and very good reading from a lot of guys that really know their stuff.
I am curious about your feeling about your fine pastes perspective. I am by no means questioning your statement I am just wondering about the context. I like the edges that I get off my finisher but what I find is that using a light CBN slurry as a final step gives me just the right balance of aggressiveness and smoothness that I really like. It is an almost imperceptible change in the edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
Just wondering.
Thanks,
Richard
IMHO "that I really like" is the key to the question. I don't think I would like your favored edge, nor would you like mine. The cool thing is that once we have the tools and most of all, the expertise, we can dial in our edges to suit ourselves. Pastes, powders, compounds, this hone, that hone or stropping system ..... whatever works is fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by riooso
Can you shine a light through it? I have some thinner black translucent slip stones that the light shines through and causes the stone to "glow". That one looks so thick it would be hard for light to pass from one side to the other, would be cool if it does.. looks like a nice stone..Quote:
Originally Posted by myersn024
Sure wish I'd have realized I was late to the party before I bought all this restoration gear. It's funny, because the quality of the beginning product is way lower than what it used to be, while the expectations for the finished product have increased tenfold or more. It's an interesting little fishbowl here in the razor community. All these little fish trying to fit in the same bowl, and some of us just can't seem to make it over the lip. :) I feel like a trout at Niagara! haha! Sorry I'm totally off topic!Quote:
Now we are basically scrapping the bottom of the supply barrel and it requires way more work to find razors
Razors have taken the same twisting and turning as tools have. Ebay has pretty much totaled the ability of a lot of antique dealers to buy tools at swap meets and then clean them up a little bit and sell them to end users. There used to be people who reconditioned hand planes and sold them, because you could find the planes themselves for a few bucks and a lot of users would be willing to pay $50+ for something that was restored by a guy in a garage with some initiative.
Now, a dirty "as found" user will be marked for sale either at $25-50 or sometimes (often) a moon surface price that nobody would pay, because everyone is aware that someone will pay for tools. Most of what I see when I go to flea markets is junky tools made for "gentlemen" woodworkers, and priced like the better grades of tools, and with the market as organized as it has become, if you want to get anything better, you'd better be at the flea market before people even start to set up because the guys who go to the flea to resell will often know regular flea marketers well enough to take good stuff off their hands before it ever gets on the table.
A couple of years ago when I stated shaving, I thought it was odd back then how you could just get a $10 razor, hone and do a light cleanup and sell it for $40. There are still deals to be had from time to time (as a user), but it's not like you can just go out and do it in volume and make it worth your time if you already have a job that pays well.
What also strikes me, and I'm not trying to offend anyone by this, is how antique razors can be buffed and puffed into a big rounded glom of shininess, completely removing crisp lines and patina, and people will pay a lot extra for them. In the world of most antiques, such a move completely ruins any value to all but the most inexperienced buyer. Things are original once, and after they're changed, never again.
Anyway, you can still go to fleas and find straights from time to time, but getting good very clean ones on ebay for $10 on a regular basis..good luck.
Just for the sake of conversation i just did a search of completed listing under 10 dollars, and i must say i was quite shocked with the results, many familiar names, even a couple stub-tails! quite a few that i would definately love to own!Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
super fine compounds can mask inadequate edge is all I am saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by riooso
This is right on!! By synthetic though I am talking the Shapton and superstones or other Japanese Syn. I own a set of nortons and they are good but not finishers. My opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamSt8ght
Stingray
I have 5 eschers and I have never found any natural that will improve a 12k superstone or 16k shapton.Quote:
Originally Posted by eleblu05
Stingray
I guess it depends on the natural? I think a lot of the Jnat user's may disagree with you, but you're correct in the sense that you can most definetly get an awesome edge and shave off both of those stones. Improve is a broad term in this hobby. I think the perfect edge should feel like a velvet squegee on your skin. I usually do a few laps on the Escher after the Shapton 16k, You should try it. Lot's of guys find the Shapton 16k edge to be harsh to shave off, so they go to crox or Escher for smoothing. Everyone is different, and had different skint textures, hone's differently, etc...You get the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by stingray
As far as Escher goes, I think it'a a matter of preference.:deadhorse: What I like to, you may not, and vice versa. That's what cool about this hobby, lot's of choices. I've had the opportunity to try many stones. I'm always surprised by how much you can get out of a single stone.
Take Glen and Lynn's "one stone honing" for instance.
Right now, I'm testing 3 stones from South Africa for MichaelC. One of them is just outstanding. Hands down beats the Escher, and most of the Jnats I've used. Has to be south of 12k. It leaves a very keen edge, and uber smooth. Just a pleasure to shave with. It's my finsiher of choice right now. I've tested it on several blades, and I get the same results. I'll have to post some pics. I haven't even tested the other two yet.
One thing I do not do, is use a microscope. I go by feel. I'm not concerned with scratch patterns, etc...sometimes I use a loupe to check out the bevel, My eyes have some milage on them. I'm getting up there in years. I think Glen posted earlier in this thread about old time Barbers. They probably had a Barber's hone, maybe a Coticule or an Escher. They would just touch up the blade, probably did a few swipes on the stone prior to the shave. Anything more than that, They'd send the blade out to a "Cutler"
Escher will at least smooth a 12/16k edge IME.Quote:
Originally Posted by stingray
Saying that no natural will improve a 12k or 16k edge is a bit premature IMO, I have tried many Jnats that improve 12k edge. May be the Jnat(s) you have or tried were not in the right fineness range to improve your edges.
I don't think one is necessarily better than the other. It is also what each individual's definition of 'improved' is. For me the edge I get from my y/g or b/g escher is perfect. The edge I get off a 12 or a 16k synthetic is too much of a good thing for me. As Gary Haywood sometimes says, "too crisp." So if that is the kind of edge you prefer, you'll prefer a hone that will deliver that edge. Different strokes for different folks. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
Quote:
Originally Posted by zib
I do use a microscope but am thinking of just sharpening and stropping and then shave. Sometimes I think the microscope is giving me way too much info. Thanks for the above...you have given me food for thought
two other things:
One ...can you give me MichaelC's address
Two...does he leave his door unlocked:roflmao
Stingray
Jimmy you are correct, I think in terms of refining the scratch pattern more than feeling, but in the end feeling is what counts.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
1+++...I agree completely Zib! I've always thought that a microscope was a redundant piece of equipment...Just IMHO! I wonder how the SR shavers and Barbers from the last few hundred years ever managed to get along without them...:hmmm:Quote:
Originally Posted by zib
To me anything other than a nice smooth shave is all 'Hobby'. I'm way more interested in the aesthetic part of this endeavor rather than the scientific. I've got 'RAD, HAD, and Every Other Acronym' that relates to this hobby. Boxes of razors and hones etc. But as with Glen and Lynn have suggested, more often than not I find myself using the one hone method and a series of slurry stones (Naguras) to get the 'velvet squeegee' feel as you so eloquently describe it. Be it an Escher or a JNAT. Yes...it's not as fast...but I just like to hone. For me...it's the most relaxing part of my day. Everything else in life seems to melt away when it's just me, my hone, and a blade.
Each to their own... ;)
Zib, are you talking about the "silkvein" stone or is this something totally different?Quote:
Originally Posted by zib
Whatever it is sounds very interesting for sure.
