Naniwa Chosera 400 vs Shapton glass 500 for rough work

I am looking for a stone to do my rough work before bevel setting, and I have thought about a 400 Chosera or a 500 Shapton glass. I don't really like the feel of diamond hones, so I need something coarser than my 1k Chosera to do the work.

I need mainly those people who have used both, but everyone is welcome with their opinions who have used one of the two :)

The most important question would be: Which is the faster stone, and which is better feeling in use?

I am interested in any other constuctive opinions too, but these two questions are the most important to me atm. How much soaking do they need, how fast they dish, etc, these aren't that important, but I welcome any help to choose wich one to buy :)

Thank you very much for your help in advance!

I own both just because I bought them so I would have the complete sets.. :)

Honestly these are great Knife stones but they just don't have what I want for low end grunt restoration work, that work is done on my well worn DMT 325, that is the "Draft" horse of my honing stable..

The low end stuff I do on razors really consists or Heel recontouring and many types of breadknifing, and both the Shapton and the Naniwa are way to soft for that type of work...

Basically I have them but, I only use them for kitchen knife sharpening when needed..

For actually honing feel they are rather close, the Shapton cuts very fast by releasing a ton of slurry, the Naniwa cuts fast more by the roughness of the grit IMHO

I don't usually like to go under 1k, just because (with the hones I have tried), they tend to get soft. That means they'll dish and release large grits that will scratch the blade. I did like the dark blue Chosera alright, which is the 600, but I never bought one for myself. Instead, I prefer to use a coticule to raise a light slurry on my Chosera 1k. The slurry is part Chosera, part coticule, and all fast.

I should say I have not tried the Chosera 400 (as far as i can remember), and I have definitely not used the Shapton 500. Actually, now that I think of it, I may have only used the Norton 220...

I have the Chosera 400, and I have tried the Glass-stone 500 a couple times.

None of them are what I would prefer on heavier work in that range to be honest.
Glen described them pretty good.

The Shapton Pro 220 is basically the same, plenty hard, but releases too much slurry and is a bit of a mess to work with.
The audio feedback on it is pretty grindy, and for some reason, that is a turn-off for me.
The 320 Pro might be a better choice, but I haven't tried that out yet.

What I tend to use the most for that kind of work is the Suehiro Gokumyo Debado in 400 Grit.
Hard as all that, plenty of cutting power, doesn't dish or make a mess and has great feedback

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Originally Posted by jeness

I am looking for a stone to do my rough work before bevel setting

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Do you mean for edges or fixing geometry as Glen described ? I used the 500 GS a lot for starting bevels on beat up edges but always looked for something faster so bought the 220 GS. I now prefer the Jp Pro 320 after jointing or wetgrinder work but sometimes a DMT is the best choice.

To be honest I would use them to start the edges on my own razors I started to make from scratch :)

I have to remove a lot of steel sometimes to look at the bevels, so that I know where I have to grind the steel thinner at the edge. Also, after finish grinding, I have to go from no bevel to a usable bevel which I can take to a 1k stone, and I would like to minimize the time involved.

For grunt work the DMT 325 is hard to beat. I have the Shapton 500 and it's not as aggressive as one would think. With lite pressure it's more like an aggressive 1K and it doesn't dish which is real cool.

I like Sigma Power 400, very fast and works both on knives and razors, the stone is a soaker .

The SP400 and king 300 are probably both good stones, the chosera 400 is fine. They're great for tools, but I wouldn't like to use them on razors. A hard 1000 stone with a slurry can cut awfully fast and for anything faster than that, I'd rather stick down PSA (adhesive) 80 or 220 grit sandpaper to glass, like from a mirka gold roll or something of the sort, or even norton 3x with uniformly applied 3m spray adhesive. fresh good quality sandpaper is super super aggressive, but it will be limited to things that don't cut straight down into it.

The other option, and a very cheap one, is to get a medium india stone and use your diamond hone to slurry it. They have aluminum oxide abrasive in them that's probably in the 350 grit range and while they cut slow once they're worn in, if you abrade the surface, they are very fast, and very very hard.

(the benefit to the medium india stone is that you can often find them nearly unused for about $10 or so. They are underappreciated because of the reputation that oilstones have for being slow, but in the era of diamond hones to scuff their surfaces, that's old news).

I've used the well worn DMT325 for chips, breadknifing, etc...I can't speak for the low grit Shaptons, but I have used Naniwa, and found them to be too soft. I used the Norton 220k, but found the DMT to be faster.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

The SP400 and king 300 are probably both good stones, the chosera 400 is fine. They're great for tools, but I wouldn't like to use them on razors.

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I have to disagree here, the SP 400 is a really hard stone for the grit, and works great on razor, no edge tears and very fast.

I bought a Niawia 400 just for restoration and it is soft for heavy grinding. I use the DMT 325 to grind, then an India Stone or Washita to refine, then the 400 to knock of the burrs… then the Norton or Niawia 1000. I am really liking that Niawia 1000 over the Norton, it does slurry more though.

I agree with Glen, the Niawia 400 is great for knives, it can clean up an edge in a hurry.

The 400 can be used for razor restoration, but there are better alternatives. The 400 really shines for knives when paired a 1000. My wife is a knife edge beater.

I haven't used either stone. But here's another vote for an old reliable India stone. I've been using the same one for this type of stuff for over a year, and it looks the same as the day I got it...Except for some embedded steal ofc. I clean it after every use though, so it's not so bad. It's what I use for heel recontouring, fixing frowns, and breadknifing very large chips out of razors. Bonus is it comes in at about 12 bucks I think.

When I have heavy repair work to do like fixing chips, chunks, heel spikes and frowns, a Naniwa 220 is my go to stone. It does not generate the heavy slurry other stones do and is only mildly thirsty. I hold the razor on the spine and do circles or chisel strokes at a 45 degree angle so that when I go back to the bevel setting I am not starting from scratch. If the damage is severe, I will use a DMT 325, but I save it for the heavier work as it is super aggressive. A lot of times after the DMT 325, I will use the 400 to transition to the 1K.

Have fun,

Lynn

When I talk about repair work like removing a chip, frown or pit I breadknife/grind heel to toe and side to side with the edge 90 degrees to the stone. Then with the spine between thumb and forefinger and blade about 45-60 degrees side to side to knock off the corners, what I think Lynn is talking about. I get to where the chip is almost removed then go to the India or Washita to remove the burr and begin to refine the bevel.

Grinding 90 degrees to the stone would cut the 400, but not a DMT, Washita or India. The 400 does quickly grind a new bevel. I also use 2 pieces of tape to protect the spine.

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Originally Posted by jeness

To be honest I would use them to start the edges on my own razors I started to make from scratch :)

I have to remove a lot of steel sometimes to look at the bevels, so that I know where I have to grind the steel thinner at the edge. Also, after finish grinding, I have to go from no bevel to a usable bevel which I can take to a 1k stone, and I would like to minimize the time involved.

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He just needed a heavy fast cutter, so my recommendation and why, is no longer valid...

Seems just about any of the stones mentioned will work honestly.. Between the two you asked about I would probably nod to the Naniwa 400 but both would do the job you are asking for...

I'm confused here, are some people talking about the naniwa 400 superstone instead of the chosera? the chosera 400 is not particularly soft, I'd have more of a problem with razors keeping it cutting fast by abrading the surface than I would with it being too soft.

I haven't used the 400 superstone.

I still would rather use a medium india, because it's about the same grit as those stones but it's harder. And it's really cheap, so you don't have to worry about taking care of it at all.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

I'm confused here, are some people talking about the naniwa 400 superstone instead of the chosera? the chosera 400 is not particularly soft, I'd have more of a problem with razors keeping it cutting fast by abrading the surface than I would with it being too soft.

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Several conversations are going on, myself when I answered the first time I was assuming he was needing a "Razor Restoration Hone", which he was not, after his second post he clarified and just needs a fast cutting stone for heavy duty honing... This changed the entire need base .. many people missed that post and are answering each other rather than Jeness...

He could use about any low grit cutter for his needs.... every recommendation is now a good one...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

He could use about any low grit cutter for his needs.... every recommendation is now a good one...

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I agree...

Yea, I think we are talking about 2 diffrent things. Bevel setting and repair grinding. Originally when I bought my 400 Chosera it was to do both. It is not suited for repair grinding, or better said there are better choices. It is a bevel maker, which is why it will re set a rough bevel on a knife or razor quickly. Rarely do I need to re grind a bevel to that degree on a razor, without having ground a breadknife edge. So it did not do what I intended when I purchased it.

If you are grinding your own blades and are establishing a brand new bevel you will also be removing a lot of material and alligning the edge. I would use a DMT, Washita or India because they can do both well.

Yes, generally I need something fast, because I have to remove much more metal that in a regular honing sesson, even more than in a heavy restoration job. Imagine that you breadknife a razor so badly in a 90 degree angle, that you don't see a bevel anymore. Now, I have to start with an edge like this :) Even if I start with 45 degree breadknifing until my bevels meet in the middle, I have a long way to go with 61-62 and up Rockwell razorsteel until I have a bevel I can take to my 1k Chosera.

A 400~ grit stone will be dual purpose for me, because I want to use them on J-knives too. And I will use some pressure with those, so a non diamond one would be preferable :)

Jeness, what is the chance that you could get a makita wheel grinder - the ones that work flat? That would seem to work a lot better for this purpose, when you're still dimensioning the metal. It would also be good on knives.

Not that it matters much anymore, but I wanted to change my vote to DMT. Ofc I bow to those who've used the other ones. Just had to share my agreement at how well that thing will eat metal. Seems I should have tried it out before. :)