Are there no slurry stones of zulu grey? Since it is in the BBW hardness category, they should work fine.
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Are there no slurry stones of zulu grey? Since it is in the BBW hardness category, they should work fine.
I've been avoiding this thread in order to avoid a bad case of 'want' - looks like I've been doing so for a good reason - I want one! ;)
Some diamond plates, especially the new and the cheap ones, let loose diamond particles that do pretty big damage. I have experienced this. And, depending on their grit, they might abrade bigger particles of stone. Also the good ones like atoma cost a lot. If the speed is the only reason diamond plates work better, that is not a big problem.
I am aware, but I did not mean new plate , I use well used 1.2k DMT for slurry.
I wanted a slurry stone when I ordered my Zulu Gray, but was told #1 making slurry is really hard, #2 the edges are not as good with that kind of slurry. I'll let Mike elaborate more on that.
Guys, plenty of folks have asked me for slurry stones and I've simply said that for this hone I think a well worn, medium to fine grit diamond card is best as that is what I find to work very well. I tried a slurry stone made from some Zulu Grey off cuts and what I find is that is does more polishing/glazing of the surface than actually releasing slurry. I suppose I do not know if this is common with hard natural stones.. but for me in comparison with a diamond card it's simply not effective enough. Added to that, the diamond plate keeps the surface smooth and 'crisp' with no glazing at all - it just seems to make more sense to me.
- Mike
So prices just went up unless we are a previous owner of a diamond plate? DMT's and such go for about $100 and then the requirement for it to be 'well worn' adds another issue. How different are the results with/without slurry?
I have the same question as Brooksie: how worn is well worn? I know this is probably like asking how long a piece of string is, but thought I'd ask. :)
I was going to wait until my stone arrived before getting a small DMT for slurry. But what do you think? Should I get the DMT now and spend some time on the backside of my PHIG to wear it in?
Either way, can't wait for my stone to arrive! :)
And that is 100% my fault for being ignorant to the existence of such a product. Thanks, genuinely, for enlightening me!
Well Worn..
As our Friend Vasilis mentioned Chaep or New plates are not that great for this work, Releasing and High diamonds are a bad thing :(
To break in a plate for Lapping/Slurry making take a Knife or even the round shank of an old screwdriver and run them down the plate about 10-20 times this will knock off the Loose and High Diamonds..
Lapping a Barber's Hone or lapping an Arkansas stone for about 20 minutes should take care of the rest, after that it is just more use :)
Personally since buying the hugely expensive Shapton DGLP (325 Grit) which is used on the 30k Shapton I have never really worried about using anything higher than a DMT 325 (well worn :p).. I just haven't found a difference in the outcome
Another trick for slurry is to use a smaller Arkansas Stone they are so hard that you will usually never realease grit when rubbing water stones...
Two more razors done last night using the Zulu with Slurry and Water, I think I like the feel of that better, but I am going to try doing my Wacker with the slurry and water then after a few shaves switch out to the Smith's and re-hone it and see if I can feel any difference on the face...
So far only good reports back from customers
One thing to look out for when using a 1200 dmt for lapping .... Before sham posted about ruining his 1200 DMT lapping with it I was using one at work to lap my norton combo. On the 4k side I noticed a gray residue that puzzled me. I had been using the 325 dmt plate on my 4k single grit at home and had never seen anything like it. At first I attributed it to swarf from honing but it was the diamonds and the nickel substrate that they are embedded in.
Fortunately for me Sham posted before I went too far and ruined my plate. I would say for making slurry a 1200 is fine. Even to finish lap after running through a series of grits with other plates or with sandpaper would probably be safe enough. Just saying don't use a 1200 dmt to lap a hone from start to finish or you'll end up with a plate with bald spots.
Double0 dropped off his zulu and his atoma 1200 to me a few days ago. The atoma is fabulous and I will get one down the road. The jury is still out on the zulu. I am playing around with it and will be test shaving with a W&B 'Lather Well I'll Shave Well', and a Kissing Crane full hollow in a few minutes. I want to work on some others too before I draw any conclusions.
After talking to Burt, He also tested this stone. We've found the magic happens over 80 laps. It will work well with less laps, but it may feel like an 8k edge. I do 5 sets of 20 laps. I use an Atoma 1200 credit card size, raise a moderate slurry.
I do 20 laps, 20 circles, dilute, repeat, and finish with 20 laps plain water. A total of 100 laps. For the most part, and all things considered, this seems to be the magic number. At least for me. I've found a big difference from 20-60 laps vs 80-120 laps. I don't think you can over hone on this stone.
Of course, YMMV. Lot's of variables here. Razor, Technique, etc... If your getting good edges, try a few more laps, and you should get great edges...They should be comparable to an Escher or Jnat.
I'll have to try that RIch. Yesterday I did like thirty laps each with a misty slurry on a friend's zulu, with the two razors mentioned in the post above yours, # 213. Shaved one side of my phizzog with each razor and they were very nice. I'm planning on trying a couple more and I'll do the requisite 80 round trips.
Hi Guys,
Just wanted to pop in again to say I'm working hard on prepping existing orders as well as future-proofing my readiness for new orders.
I wanted to post a few pics of what I was doing this weekend - I've been rough cutting a whole bunch of new material, as well as chamfering a batch of soon to be shipped stones. You can see in the image below that what I do is clamp each stone in an old heavy-duty mill vise, and then I use a large file to cut in the chamfers on each side.. painstaking doesn't begin to describe it :) And when you're looking at like 25 stones at a time waiting to be prepped, it's tiring work to be sure.
The rough cuts on my bench there you can see are all mostly hone shaped - just very large and very rough. Some of them have very nice figuring in the stone, which as I understand it is the result of organic material like seaweed etc. being encased over time in the stone.. (This bench is just a very small portion of the supply I have..)
- I'm working on stamping the sides of my hones with the ZG logo and text in a white ink, for hones that have a rough backing where a label won't be easy to apply. Actually I may just stamp all future hones like this and instead just supply an information card with each stone instead of the adhesive labels...
Thanks guys,
- Mike.
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Still waiting. Have the 1st razor set to go!
I would recommend all talks about sales & the such be done via pm...this is too good a thread to loose.
PM me with specific questions on sales etc. as Scott has rightfully advised.
But regarding the aesthetics of natural stones, including the Zulu Grey, do guys here prefer the orange natural 'skin' to be retained on the underside/sides of my stones - or is it preferred to have a clean cut block much like the Thuringians or Coticules? Because I can go either way with my hones..
In truth, I feel there are more similarities between my ZG hones and Jnats (geologically), than there exist between them and Thuringians, so I'm seriously thinking of retaining even a hint of the orange iron oxide skin as part of the stones' aesthetics. It will certainly be easier than having to perfectly sculpt all sides of the stone. But my fear is that I create confusion between my hones and Jnats.. Which I really don't want to do. I'd like my hones to have their own personality... and with the skin they certainly do look an awful lot like some Jnats.
Apologies, just thinking out loud here..
- Mike.
Good point Mike,
You know mine has a small spot of orange skin on the back. It doesn't interfere with honing, if I wanted to use it. I can actually use all four sides. The original test hones were rectangular, 9x2x2, pretty much.
It was odd when I saw pics of guys adhering labels to what looked like the working end of the stone, but I now know your cutting them that way. I'm sure most would prefer two clean working sides or four in some cases. Glen mentioned using oil on one side of the stone, and water on the other. That's a nice option.
I use the side with orange skin with water and back is labeled because I don't like use oil on honing session.
I believe the orange skin side is more attractive and could be a id sign for the future.
I personally kind of like the idea of it having a bit of skin left on the stone but I'm good either way. I love the figuring in some of those stones. It would be amazing luck to get one of those. Thanks for all your hard work.
Guys I just wanted to clarify what I mean by the 'skin' on my stones. I see now that you guys may be confusing the orange 'stains' in the stone for what I'm calling the skin, but I realise it's because of course I've removed the skin before sending any stones so you haven't seen it properly :)
I'm talking about the outer orange layer - and it is frighteningly similar to some images of a Nakayama Asagi I just googled.
So I wanted to show some comparison images of my Zulu Grey hones with this Asagi I just found. I wish I was a geologist so I could properly understand the similarity, but it's quite apparent visually. At I'm so pleased that my hones are even in the same conversation with natural finishing stones like some of the Jnats. I'm almost certain geologically the stones are cousins...
Here are some Zulu Grey hones with the orange skin:
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And here are images of a Nakayama Asagi and the back of a Karasu stone:
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Double post..
Now I understand, you mean leave rough side , but i prefer finished on every side.
Thanks for clarify.
Maybe like in pic 2 is not bad.
I'd like to see Lynn Abrams test one of these since he probably hones more razors in a month than all of us hone in a lifetime. I have been testing Double0's zulu and so far it seems pretty good. I read one fellow who recommended oil and I won't go there since it is not my hone. Still messing with it with water and slurry .... diluting and all of that. So far the shaves are nice.
Him and Sham...
Well since you asked opinions....If ever I order another, I'd like it to have two perfect honing surfaces. I don't have any preference about the sides though. I can definitely recognize the value to the distributor in not having to lap flat all 6 sides of a stone. I've never liked the look of all these random chunks of japanese stone with one flat side somewhere to hone on. JMHO :) Just looks lazy to me...Even though I do understand their reasoning is to utilyze as much of the stone quarried as possible with minimal waste. I think my ZG has already been fixed up traditionally though, so...I'll take it that way instead. :P :)
I'm afraid I'm going to muddy the waters re preference here. :) Personally I like it when a natural thing looks like a natural thing, and so to me those bits of 'skin' look fantastic. And so from a strictly selfish point of view, I'd be very happy to find bits of skin on mine when it arrives.
However I think you have two valid points to the contrary to consider:
1) not wanting to come across as trying to flog stones as pseudo-JNats. We know you're not doing that, but will the wider world? I think that's worth bearing in mind. Perhaps inking the ZG logo as you suggested would alleviate this concern?
2) folks who want as many honing sides as possible.
I like the idea of being able to fix a label to the underside of the stone. That being said if there was a way to get the bottom smooth enough to lacquer a label to it, yet still see some orange that would be the best of both worlds to me. Enough to distinguish it from a Jnat, but still have the label on it. I don't need two flat sides because I use smith's honing solution which isn't petroleum based so it washes right off with water.
I like it just fine like this
Skin on side
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Clean on the others
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If and when I can't use straight or hone anymore and my kids don't want it, I would put the sticker on it and sell it on the future e-bay. I like it the way I got it, thanks Micheal. Double O
The best thing you can do if your interested (and if you have the means) is get a stone. This is not a plug for Michael by any means. It seems everyone is waiting for someone's else's opinion. You know what they say about opinions. I read the other forums, and some of it I agree with, and some I don't. Does this stone improve an 8k edge? Hell yes it does. I shave off an Escher every day. I'm very familar with that edge, it's a B/G I got from Lynn years ago.
You can blindfold me, and shave me with a razor finished with a Coticule, a Jnat, Diamond spary, Escher and a Zulu, and I can tell you which is which. I know what I like, Everyone has there favorite finisher, and after years of trying things, I like Escher's. To me, there's nothing more comfortable, and ultimately that's what I'm after. Ease of use, closeness and comfort.
I don't use microscopes, although I think the pics are cool and useful. I respect the other's opinions, but when the day is done, it's my face, and I know what I like. If I'm honing from bevel to finish, by the time I get to the Escher, I don't need to do much work. If it's the Zulu, I have to do 100 laps to get that killer edge. Maybe there's some variance from stone to stone, after all they are naturals.
So, Take what your read with a grain of salt. In the end if you have a stone you don't like, you can always sell it...
Happy Honing....
I haven't read the other forums, but after talking to Jimmy yesterday and hearing what he thought about the Zulu and what others honners he respect tought about it, I came to the same conclusion. What matters is what you think! The only way to find out is trying it yourself.
I heard from Jimmy that some one he thinks highly as a professional honner (does it for living) puts the grid of the Zulu on about a 10k.
With that in mind, last night I did a test shave, with a Genco (one of my favorite blades, this particular I think was made by Case) and gave it a retouch on my 16k Shapton, strop on clean hard wool felt (40) and 100 on the roo strop. Then proceeded to shave half of my face with it and the other half with the Dovo stainless steel that I finished on the Zulu a week earlier. The Dovo had 2 shaves (slight disadvantage for the Genco finished) and the Genco was fresh from the stone and strop.
Both shaves where very nice, with the Zulu been closer shave (not by much) and the Zulu Dovo a little less feeling on the face, again, not by much. For me it seem to improve a some, out of my synthetic 16k Shapton glass. In fairness, it should have been done with same steel if possible, but that's what I did last night.
I did try a new technic on the 16k that I tought of doing after a read from the J-Norton challenge. And I believe I got a little more sharpness because of it. So, what if I try oil on the Zulu? Or what if I try the same semi dry passes I finished the Genco on the shapton with the Zulu? Or what if ......?
Which bring me to my point to what Zip (Rich) said. It is your face and that is what matters at the end of the day. With so many variables, steel, honing technic and honer experience, variations on naturals and what ever other variable I can't think of right at the moment, the Zulu in your hands could be just so so, or a killer finisher (like for me). Only YOU can tell what it is for you!
When I was learning how to fly RC Helis, the most asked question was, what equipment can make my helicopter fly better, and the answere from the most experience guys was, buy more fuel or batteries (if it was electric). In other words, fly more. I see in honing is similar, hone more, read and experiment for yourself. Only you can tell.
It is always appreciated to know what others think of something. It gives a reference, but at the end of the day is what works for you, and you'll never find out if you just stay reading and not trying. For $130.00 (for an 8X3) vs $700-900, my choice for trying a natural finisher was eassy. Double O