The Unicot Method

I am new to straight razor shaving and recently moved from viewer to member of this terrific forum. I'm sure the answer to this question is in the forum somewhere but at times I deal with just a touch of ADD, not diagnosed, just, man, I need the answer to this question now!
So if anyone can assist: I am fascinated on multiple levels with the Unicot method of honing. I know this is where I will begin and where I am hoping I will end. I enjoy reading about the other methods, the fantastic natural stones from around the world, and the amazing synthetics. But, a single stone from a revered mine this is what has snagged me...the question is, would there be one coticule better for this task than others?

Thanks

I have very limited knowledge of natural stones but there are some great websites out there that are sure to answer all your questions.

http://www.coticule.be/unicot.html

Every natural stones is different and depending on where it was mined will have some similar and some different properties to it. Looks like it's time to go buy a stone and get to playing around on it! Once you find one that hones the blade to YOUR comfort you'll be a happy camper.

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Originally Posted by WW243

the question is, would there be one coticule better for this task than others?

Thanks

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Yes definitely. The problem is finding which one. That might require time, money, and or luck. Might be the first one you ever get. If you get a good one and you're satisfied with it don't chase after a better one and you'll save time and money. OTOH, if you don't get one that satisfies you, you'll just have to keep looking till you do. Here are some that belong to a friend of mine that is looking for the "right" one. :p

Attachment 106625

Well, luckily I am already considered slightly mad so no one thinks anything of me laughing out loud at a stack of rocks at work. Pretty funny, thanks.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Yes definitely. The problem is finding which one. That might require time, money, and or luck. Might be the first one you ever get. If you get a good one and you're satisfied with it don't chase after a better one and you'll save time and money. OTOH, if you don't get one that satisfies you, you'll just have to keep looking till you do. Here are some that belong to a friend of mine that is looking for the "right" one. :p

Attachment 106625

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Been there, Done that. What Jimmy's saying is true. Some guys get lucky, or claim they get lucky out of the gate, and get a good Coticule.
Other's buy, and buy and buy much to the delight of seller's. Years ago, we had a few good one's out there, that took care of you, now we have
the Mega mart Coticule seller's. You used to contact a guy, like Howard at the perfect edge, and he sent you a selected grade Coticule, period.

You can go to sites, look at hundreds and hundreds of pics of Coticules, and get confused. I was taught a long time ago, "Never give people more than 3 choices" it's hard for them to make up their minds. Some people love this, to the new guy it's daunting.

Good veins to look for are Dressante, La petite blance, Grosse blance, and some like this hybrid Les Latneuse? Not sure about the last one. This is all subjective too, because they're are differences in the veins. I might get a fast La petite, and you could get a slow one....

There's a Coti on the classifieds right now for 60.00, for that price, you can't go wrong....

Veins I don't like, La Grise, Here's some eye candy, and that's not all of them. Which one do I like, Top pic, Forth from the left, it's a Dressante. To me, it's a good all around stone.

I have owned 21 different coticules.
I really really liked three of them.
Seventeen were ok.
One was junk, IMO.

I'm a little light headed now. The mystery deepens as things become more clear. I really like looking at pics of these rocks. Thank you. Thank-you a lot!

Can anyone work out the odds?

Thanks!

If you forget the "Coticule from Bevel set" thought and add a very cheap easy to use Synthetic 1k to your thoughts life will get much easier...

Using the Coti at that level is quaint, sorta like a J-nat and using all the TomoNagura but most don't do that any longer, get a good solid bevel set and you can actually shave at that level, then all ya gotta do is smooth it up for your face :) Much much easier to do that

I think I have read someplace that getting the bevel set correctly is 90% of honing :p

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Originally Posted by WW243

So if anyone can assist: I am fascinated on multiple levels with the Unicot method of honing. I know this is where I will begin and where I am hoping I will end.

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that is the first delusion of the hobby :)

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I enjoy reading about the other methods, the fantastic natural stones from around the world, and the amazing synthetics. But, a single stone from a revered mine this is what has snagged me...the question is, would there be one coticule better for this task than others?

Thanks

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You have to experience other hones to know the answer to that question. For me there is further to go than coticule.
I know some people claim they got the 15k -alike edge on their coticule but those are some vintage very rare and expensive coticules, most of that I have seen so far from people that have used more coticules than I have seen is they vary so much it's a bit like playing the lottery to get a good one from the first try. I find the coticule very attractive stone but I also like functionality and that comes from other stones for me at this point.

90%?? Ya I’m sure that it was some fussy old guy who lives back in the hills in Idaho told me that getting a good bevel set was 90% of the battle.

Now who was that guy???:w

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Originally Posted by cudarunner

90%?? Ya I’m sure that it was some fussy old guy who lives back in the hills in Idaho told me that getting a good bevel set was 90% of the battle.

Now who was that guy???:w

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Didn't he move to Minnesota ? :confused:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Didn't he move to Minnesota ? :confused:

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NO!!! That was his evil twin!!!:jedi:hehehe

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I know some people claim they got the 15k -alike edge on their coticule but those are some vintage very rare and expensive coticules, most of that I have seen so far from people that have used more coticules than I have seen is they vary so much it's a bit like playing the lottery to get a good one from the first try.

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I've got 11 now and I've had more than that from time to time. Anyway, I've never yet found one that I would rate at 15k or even 12k. Maybe 10k and that is a big maybe. IMHO coticules give a good shaving edge .... but .... it isn't the same kind of edge, doesn't feel the same, as an edge from a higher grit stone. IME they, coticules, aren't that far apart though. I'm not saying coticules don't vary, fast , slow, in between. Some are real good, others are average.

I also think that bum coticules are often called that because they may be slow. Guys want a fast and fine cutter and they get a slow finisher and say it is a bum coticule. IME sometimes they need to be figured out as to where they fit best in the progression. Something like a shapton glass or a naniwa superstone will be a whole lot more consistent in doing what the honer expects it to do. The synthetic will probably give a sharper edge but it won't be as forgiving an edge as the coticule..... IMO.

Coticules get a bad rap because guys expect them to be some kind of magic stone and expect more out of them than they are capable of giving. Figure out what your coticule can do, where it fits and utilize it at that level. Don't expect more out of it than it can give and accept it for what it is. A Clydesdale ain't a good quarter horse and a quarter horse isn't going to excel at pulling wagons. Just IMHO.

Ok,
You forced me to listen. You did it using the word 'quaint.' That word doesn't fit with the picture of myself on a deserted island with a shard of mirror, ragged clothes, a straight razor and a coticule.
And guessing, the quote originated with yourself, the one about 90% of honing? You know what you are talking about, I only know what I am dreaming.
Anyway...this is more fun than I imagined.
Thanks

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

If you forget the "Coticule from Bevel set" thought and add a very cheap easy to use Synthetic 1k to your thoughts life will get much easier...

Using the Coti at that level is quaint, sorta like a J-nat and using all the TomoNagura but most don't do that any longer, get a good solid bevel set and you can actually shave at that level, then all ya gotta do is smooth it up for your face :) Much much easier to do that

I think I have read someplace that getting the bevel set correctly is 90% of honing :p

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Sounds to me like you've found your mission in life. Go forth, try as many coticules as you can, and see what there is to see. Let us know what you find. That's how knowledge gets generated, renewed, updated, and made.

James.

I think Jimmy nailed it. There's so much information out there on Coticules, and you have to seperate the hype, and sales pitch talk from truth. It is a natural. They vary, a lot. Unlike Escher, which is a more consistent natural.
As far as one hone fits all, I don't think so. To find a stone like that right off the bat, is like hitting the lottery.
Get yourself a bevel setter, and a Coticule. Try to get one that has a nice hue of yellow, or even pinkish brown. Stay away from the green ones, and the one's with all the cracks in them.

I've handled lot's of Coticules, and they are probably the most delicate stone I've come across. If you ask the owner's of Ardennes, they will tell you the Belgian blue is 4k, and Coticules are 8k. That's from the quarry. You may get one that's a little higher, but not much, like Jimmy said maybe 10k. They are fun to play with, but these days I'm looking for consistency and speed. I've been using the Shapton GS series with stellar results.

If your just maintaining your shave ready blade, A coti should do fine. If your just starting out, you may want to get a Barber's hone.

I have to note that we're talking about naturals and grit ratings again. At the end of the day you CAN shave off a coticule. Actually I've heard of people attempting to shave off of a 1k synthetic. Whilst it wasn't comfortable it can be done.

If you find a coticule and you get a shave that feels comfortable to you then great! If and when you have more funds to spend on different stones to experiment then go for it! I went the Welsh slate route because of the affordability and the size of the stone and am having great results from them.

From what I've read, the advice here is great. The yellow or pinkish hues seem to, from reading and experimenting with a yellowish one, give a nice smooth edge and have heard as well to stay away from the greenish ones. I guess the reasoning behind that is that it's got the lower grade blue particles mixed in with the yellow higher grade particles. Feel free to correct me if I'm way out in left field here.

I have a story about my quest to learn to hone on just coticules. When I first read about coticule honing here on srp (before coticule.be existed and Bart posted his research here), I read about one stone honing which was the start of the unicot method. I was very excited about learning this method and wanted to buy my first coticule. I contacted Howard at the perfect edge (who, IMO, is the best source for QUALITY coticules then and now), and received my first coticule a 6x2. I tried for literally a month to figure out unicot on this coticule and it just didn't work, this is before we knew so much about different veins and strata names. I found out some time later that I had a coticule from the la nouvelle veins layer, which is a very hard coticule layer to figure out. The slurry will dull a razor more than sharpen it and if you use a light slurry or water the stone becomes so slow it will not cut anything only polish, this is a great layer for finishing on water after other stones like an 8k hone but for full honing it makes your head hurt. Eventually I sold that hone and began a long and expensive search for other coticules that I preferred for the job I wanted to do.
Now I know that I prefer the la veinette layer the most because it polishes well but if you sharpen on slurry it will not dull the edge like other layers will. Of course since layer names and layer identification has come out into the open everyone, including the mine Ardennes, are figuring this stuff out and now layers like la veinette are much higher in prices than other layers because of razor honing and forums.
these are the layers I have tried and what I have found about them:
1). La veinette: usually a natural combination stone, fast on slurry but little slurry dulling effects, slow on water, a great razor layer, high premium pricing.
2). La petite Blanche: fast on slurry and usually pretty fast on water. Slurry can dull an edge some depending on the stone, still another high sort after razor honing layer and high premium pricing from the mine.
3). La grise: usually a slower stone and IMO not as fine of a layer. Newly mined ones are very soft and can chip and erode on the corners of the stone. Not something I would want for razor honing.
4).la nouvelle veine, comes in two sides. One side is extremely fast I slurry but dulls the edge and very slow in water, a great finishing stone. The other side is slow on slurry and on water and is usually a natural BBw/coticule combo.
5) la dress ante is a layer that can vary a lot, most I have used are Great all around hones but can lack in the finishing fineness department.
6). la Verte: The green coticule, pretty hard and very slow. Usually grey-green in color. Finishing is fine with this layer but a lot of them have inclusions in the stone, so I wouldn't buy them.


That's only the layers I have owned and used, there are more. As you can see there is a lot to think about when selecting coticules and most of them are small now and IMO pointless to buy if they are less than 6x2 in size. Back when I came to SRP an 8x3 coticule was considered VERY expensive and they would cost about 200.00 dollars. Now they are over twice that (over $400.00) for that size so most of the ones you see around are tiny in size due to high pricing.

Then you have some vendors online that are selling coticules with inclusions and cracks in the sides of the stones and trying to con people into buying them by misleading them to think that inclusions and cracks don't affect the honing of a tiny razor edge. If I pay hundreds of dollars on a razor hone mined from the Earth I don't want inclusions and cracks...sorry.

Even worse we now are told that all coticules can hone a razor no problem and give you a super fine edge...this just isn't true IMO. All other natural hones out there vary in quality and fineness, they are all graded for a reason (arkansas hones, japanese, Chinese, etc), I don't see how Belgian hones escape this fact over all other natural hones on the planet. Even Japanese natural hones have grades of fineness despite their good reputation.

You need to find the coticule that works for you, and I highly recommend you ask whoever sells one to you if you can return it if you don't like it.

For the most part I agree with Disburden. The main thing to keep in mind is that coticules' properties vary. I have three smaller bouts or "irregular shaped 'leftovers'" (even though the bulk of what is pulled out of the ground are irregularly shaped), one rectangle, and one unusable because of inclusions that work their way out of the surface, and they all behave in a noticeably different way. All are of a different stratum:

• La Veinette naturally bonded combination of coticule and blue belgian whetstone, indeed relatively fast on slurry and slower as a finisher
• Les Latneuses hybrid of (my own guess, based on others' colour descriptions) the harder layer and the mottled ('hybrid') layer, so two yelow coticules for the price of one, really; the mottled layer is not 100% homogenous, but that does not infuence honing
• La Petite Blanche natural combination, fast on slurry and a fast finisher; has some blue spots and visible lines that do not have any influence on honing
• Presumably an older La Verte, which is relatively fast as a bevel setter and moderately fast as a finisher; has some blue spots and visible lines that do not have any influence on honing

*(slow/fast/moderately fast/etc. is in my experience with these specific coticules compared to the each other, which is rather subjective and should be understood as such)

I have gotten very keen and smooth shaving edges off of all of these, using both the unicot and dilucot method, although some of them took more of an effort than others to get there. If you can make a coticule work with dilucot, you can make it work with unicot and vice versa.

I am not saying that there are NO 'bad' coticules, unsuitable for razors. There are, I have one. Reputedly, there are also razors which are very difficult to use for razors as they work extremely fast and more suitable for woodworking tools or knives. But in my experience if an 'average' coticule edge (a bit of a dubious nomen, I know) is keen enough for you and finished and stropped properly, it will give you a comfortable shave (based on the edges I get off my five layers). In my opinion grit rating is redundant when talking about natural hones, or at least coticules, as they do not have one definite, identifiable abrasive property, it varies strongly depending on the thickness of slurry that is used.

If, as Disburden mentioned, you can try out many different (strata of) coticules with the possibility of returning them without any hassle, by all means do so. I just want to say that you realy don't need to try out twenty different coticules to find one that works for you. You can, but as I see it that would be a waste of time and money. Getting one, two or maybe three different coticules and actually trying to make them work instead of expecting to have them work for you perfectly from the get-go is, in my opinion, a more reliable and enjoyable way of honing with coticules. I only got my second coticule after I got an edge off my first one that shaved comfortably (not perfectly, mind you).

In my opinion, the likelihood of getting a coticule that CAN give you a comfortable shaving edge is actually quite substantial IF you are buying (new coticules) from a reputable source and specify that you are looking for a coticule to hone razors (as a side note: in my experience 'Standard' gade coticules are, on the whole, not inferior in honing capacity compared to 'Select' grades; the person(s) grading them admit it is based on aesthetic aspects). Personally I have only dealt - on multiple occasions - with Ardennes Coticule (where all newly mined coticules come from), and have not received anything but great service, as well as advice. But there are other knowledgeable vendors with great reputations that I would not hesitate to buy coticules from.

With buying from unknown sources it may be more of a hit-and-miss.

I have tried 4 coticules so far, I couldn't say I love any of them. The only one that I really like as a finisher is a tiny broken off sliver about 1 1/2 x 2 1/2 that someone sent me, an old natural combo that brings an edge to an almost full polish. If I had a whole stone of that type, I'd probably dump my other stones, maybe all of them. The odds that I'll ever find a full sized stone that good that has that creamy feel and brings a super bright polish...probably not very good.

I can shave off of any of them, though. I do have one of the lagrise natural combos that zib mentioned not liking. it is an OK stone, but it doesn't feel like you'd expect a coticule to feel (which is to me either creamy or crunchy/gritty). I'd stick with the veins that people who like coticules like, piggyback off of what they've spent their time finding out and don't be afraid to spend a few extra dollars to try something that's known good.

If you want a sure thing with a natural stone, buy a japanese stone about 6x3 inches and one level away from the hardest stones. They will give you the option of going clear and slurry, be a comfortable shave, be cheaper than an equivalently sizezd coticule and leave a finer edge.

I'll echo the comments above that there's no great need other than curiosity to try to get a finishing stone to do the work that a coarser grinding stone should do. That's activity for the impoverished with hours of time and no money at all. Even a $25 red king 1000 will do a far far far superior job in setting a bevel. A hard arkansas is another option, one that can be had really cheaply and will stay flat for a long time.

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Originally Posted by Disburden

Even worse we now are told that all coticules can hone a razor no problem and give you a super fine edge...this just isn't true IMO.

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I'll echo this. Every one I've gotten, even the lagrise, will make an edge I can shave with. But they are not super fine super keen edges. If you want that, you either find a super finisher that really needs to find an awfully sharp edge (and good luck getting someone to sell you that, because you're a lot more likely to get stones people *don't* really want).

Every hard japanese stone I've tried that isn't scratchy will make a super fine edge. I thought they escher made a good edge, somewhere between the coticules japanese stones in keenness (though I did expect more).

What I gather from using the coticule, though (at least the ones I've tried) is that an edge straight off the stone and right to leather may not wow you with keenness, but despite feeling half sharp and half dull (if you are used to fine syhthetics followed by a loaded strop), it always pleases with its ability to avoid causing razor burn.

Check that on some of my comments above. A coticule just arrived in the mail today, and it is finally what I was looking for in a coti - something that's probably somewhat rare. It brings a bevel to a bright polish and is hard and firm.

I'm pretty sure I'd never push it to be a jack of all trades, but it is the first coti I've gotten my hands on that I'd call a final finisher, at least from what I've seen so far.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

that is the first delusion of the hobby :)

You have to experience other hones to know the answer to that question. For me there is further to go than coticule.
I know some people claim they got the 15k -alike edge on their coticule but those are some vintage very rare and expensive coticules, most of that I have seen so far from people that have used more coticules than I have seen is they vary so much it's a bit like playing the lottery to get a good one from the first try. I find the coticule very attractive stone but I also like functionality and that comes from other stones for me at this point.

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In a year or so he will find that it is wishfull thinking that you can choose a method and follow through with it and be compleatly satisfied. I find that I change my mind every day or hour.

Shoot,I started this thread and I've already changed my mind.

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Originally Posted by stingray

In a year or so he will find that it is wishfull thinking that you can choose a method and follow through with it and be compleatly satisfied. I find that I change my mind every day or hour.

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Originally Posted by brooksie967

I have to note that we're talking about naturals and grit ratings again. At the end of the day you CAN shave off a coticule. Actually I've heard of people attempting to shave off of a 1k synthetic. Whilst it wasn't comfortable it can be done.

If you find a coticule and you get a shave that feels comfortable to you then great! If and when you have more funds to spend on different stones to experiment then go for it! I went the Welsh slate route because of the affordability and the size of the stone and am having great results from them.

From what I've read, the advice here is great. The yellow or pinkish hues seem to, from reading and experimenting with a yellowish one, give a nice smooth edge and have heard as well to stay away from the greenish ones. I guess the reasoning behind that is that it's got the lower grade blue particles mixed in with the yellow higher grade particles. Feel free to correct me if I'm way out in left field here.

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I have one that "turned green" I figured it was oxidation. still workes well but I do have one or two that seem to work better.

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Originally Posted by WW243

Shoot,I started this thread and I've already changed my mind.

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Yeah...we kinda' hijacked your thread but lots of good info.:)

I agree about the good info! Seriously, I have read all the posts at least 3 times and expect I will read them again.

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Originally Posted by stingray

Yeah...we kinda' hijacked your thread but lots of good info.:)

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Originally Posted by WW243

I agree about the good info! Seriously, I have read all the posts at least 3 times and expect I will read them again.

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Well...I guess you are glad you joined...:) YOu are going to find that these are some of the most laid back, dedicated and helpful guys you will ever find. I learned everything I know about razors and hones etc. attending class at SRP. When you have a question about something use the search and It will show thread after thread from years ago and also more recent. Enjoy your stay :D

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Originally Posted by Disburden

1). La veinette: usually a natural combination stone, fast on slurry but little slurry dulling effects, slow on water, a great razor layer, high premium pricing.
2). La petite Blanche: fast on slurry and usually pretty fast on water. Slurry can dull an edge some depending on the stone, still another high sort after razor honing layer and high premium pricing from the mine.
3). La grise: usually a slower stone and IMO not as fine of a layer. Newly mined ones are very soft and can chip and erode on the corners of the stone. Not something I would want for razor honing.
4).la nouvelle veine, comes in two sides. One side is extremely fast I slurry but dulls the edge and very slow in water, a great finishing stone. The other side is slow on slurry and on water and is usually a natural BBw/coticule combo.
5) la dress ante is a layer that can vary a lot, most I have used are Great all around hones but can lack in the finishing fineness department.
6). la Verte: The green coticule, pretty hard and very slow. Usually grey-green in color. Finishing is fine with this layer but a lot of them have inclusions in the stone, so I wouldn't buy them.

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These assessments are right on. For instance, If I use my Coticules to hone a razor, I start with a Dressante, and finish with La Nouvellle. Heres' some pics of the two stones...

I have yet to hear the word tiger. I currently have two coticules, one tiger and another one natural combo that is fast. The tiger striped was the first I bought and it was the stone I learned how to hone a razor to a comfortable shave. I won't say 10 or 15k, but it is finer and slower than the other coticules I have tried. And other tiger striped ones I used since, I believe they have smaller variance in their characteristics compared to the "classic" coticule.

Tiger Striped coticules are of the La Dressante layer.

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Originally Posted by Vasilis

I have yet to hear the word tiger. I currently have two coticules, one tiger and another one natural combo that is fast. The tiger stripped was the first I bought and it was the stone I learned how to hone a razor to a comfortable shave. I won't say 10 or 15k, but it is finer and slower than the other coticules I have tried. And other tiger stripped ones I used since, I believe they have smaller variance in their characteristics compared to the "classic" coticule.

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Really? I didn't know. Anyway, thank you.

You're welcome~

The La Dressant layer is the biggest coticule layer at the mine therefore it ranges a lot of different looking coticules, they vary the most in speed and polishing as well. They are usually creamy yellow in color but can have big spots and lines of manganese on the surface, some have stripes in red hues like a tiger. The manganese usually means the coticule is fast in slurry, the red lines help speed the stone in water.

You can find La dressante coticules in select grade that are just creamy yellow and glued to slate as well.

La Veinette and La Petite Blanche can have red in them too but usually is a blushing on the surface not striking red tiger lines.

EDIT: La Veinette and la Petite Blanche can have red on the surface too but usually it's light blushing not flat out stripes.