Got a Norton 4/8k but wtf is lapping?

Ok this new hobby of mine is more becoming a hassle.. The straight razor I bought a couple weeks ago can't give me a close shave at all. My Mach 3 is out performing it bar none.. SO I am figuring that the blade might not be sharp enough.. I bought it at a local mall ended up spending over $500 for a Dovo razor and silver tip brush and the whole 9..

Well anyways - I bought a Norton 4/8k online and should be here today, but now I am reading I have to BUY ANOTHER thing to lap it? wtf? really?

I also saw some people that said I can just use sand paper, if that is the case.. what kind of sand paper should I buy as far as grit?

sorry for the rant, but this is becoming more of a hassle then enjoyable in which I was really looking forward to.

PS. Please fix your library section.

The instructions that came with my Norton 4/8k listed which sand papers to use, it says start with 220 grit sandpaper then in the case of your stone finish it with 400-600 grit sandpaper. I'm sorry to hear you're having a tough time though. I found that almost all the problems I had early on were due to lack of research and not seeking out help, so you've actually made a smart move by joining up on this forum.
Just about any straight razor you buy isn't going to be shave ready, so your main goof was shaving with it before having it honed or honing it yourself. No worries though, you've already got the stone and there's actually a very good thread on how to use just said stone to hone a razor. If things don't go well with your honing there are plenty of people that will hone that razor for you to perfection too.
Could you tell us about your equipment too? I noticed from your intro that you went to AOS and I'm not very familiar with their razors ( a bit pricey for my taste ) but would love to hear about them. I've heard mostly good things about AOS other then their prices so I'm eager to hear how that's working for you.

1. Your Dovo is not shave ready from the factory, no matter what the people selling it to you say. It needs to be honed.

2. If you're just starting this hobby, you have 4 challenges ahead of you: 1. To learn how to shave. 2. To learn how to strop. 3. To learn how to hone. 4. To learn how to prepare your beard for shaving. Mail your razor to any member who has 2,000 posts or more below their name. When you get it back, it will be sharpened, and feel like you're shaving with a hot butter knife through butter.

3. AFTER you have an already shave ready edge from one of our members, only then should you try to hone a razor yourself. And unfortunately, removing 1/16 of material on a new hone is standard procedure on Nortons....

Sheffieldlover is giving you some good advice. In addition to what he prescribes I would add that you should send your razors out to a pro for honing. That will probably only cost about $20 each and it removes one of the two main variables involved in learning to use a straight razor.

If you start out trying to hone your razor you will be introducing a huge new variable. At this point you don't even know what you should expect from a sharp razor since, apparently, you haven't tried one yet.

Once you have your shave ready razors back you can work on the other major variable which is your technique. In the interim you can research the process of developing your skills (even if we need to fix our library). Send me a pm if you want a suggestion regarding who to use for honing.

I would be willing to bet that there are thousands of posts in hundreds of threads addressing just what you are dealing with now. If you read enough of them you will see that there is a shocking amount of similarity in many of the threads. What you are experiencing is not unusual at all. We all went through it.

Welcome to SRP.

All I see is someone who wants to blame the tools, instead of the user. It's the razor, not me. It's the SRP library, not me. It's the Norton, not me.

Take the advice of the patient people above me for sure. But do consider the idea that problems, in general, are more easily solved when accurately identified. In razors and shaving, some problems can be remedied by having a sharper razor, a more user friendly library, or a pre lapped Norton. But you really will have to spend some time learning in order to get this right. It's not a plug and play operation. Sorry if that disappoints you.

Hi, and Welcome to the forum. This hobby can be "Daunting" at first, like any thing else new to you.
Once you get a handle on it, learn the lingo, learn how to use the tools, etc...it will be enjoyable like you mentioned. Don't get discouraged. The library is being worked on. Lapping is relatively easy, and as mentioned, Most razors are not shipped shaved ready.

You remind me of, "me" when I first started. I couldn't believe all the stuff out there, and didn't know where to begin. Joining this forum is a good start.

As far as flattening the norton, soak the stone in the sink for about 15 minutes, then take a piece of 220 or 320 sandpaper, and adhere it to something you know is flat. Not wood, but stone, marble, hell a floor tile. Next take a pencil and draw a grid on the stone, stick both in the water and rub back and forth, in figure 8's, circles, whatever, until the grid is gone. Do this 3 or four more times. The 4k is gonna take a while, but the 8k should only take 10-15 mins. to do. Once that's done, let the stone dry completely out over a few days before storing, or it will grow mildew on it. When you here about chamfering the edges of the stone, just slightly round off the square and pointed edges before switching sides, that's to prevent your edge from catching and dinging the blade and stone up. Take the others advice and send the razor out so you know what sharp really feels like, so you have a bar set for your own honing attempts. AOS stuff is fine, just way overpriced, but I guarantee you no one in that store has done more than open the box and put that razor on a display; I seriously doubt none of them have used one, else they would tell you it needs to be honed before using. Honestly, I can see why you are frustrated, but blame the person who sold you the razor for their ignorance, not the hobby or process. That's why everyone here will tell new guys which places to buy their first blades from b/c we know "who" sharpened that steel, and we know that they DID put a usable edge on it before selling.

Dude, if you are pissed now then wait till you try honing.

Here's a clue: it's hard also. So if you think the 4/8 is going to solve your problem you may be disapointed. strongly consider getting your blade honed by a pro.

My advice is to read as much as you can on this forum, Find a mentor here to answer questions, and enjoy your journey.

Also, if you have a complaint about the library please put that in the suggestion forum. Make sure to be specific and also be grateful for this FREE service.

WOW!!

Welcome to SRP.

Sorry that having to learn about straight razor shaving and honing is so hard on you. It really does take a little patience to learn about this art and your expectations cannot be unrealistic or immediate.

I do have a solution though. Pick up one of these and whenever you're frustrated, place your razor or razor and hone in the hat and wave the magic wand over it 3 times. Say the magic words "Great Shave" 3 times and then wait 15 seconds, pull your razor out of the hat and enjoy the best shave you have ever had in your life. YMMV

Attachment 111355

Actually, you have already been given some great advice. Hope you take advantage of it. There is a ton of information here and it is primarily directed at helping you become successful.

Have fun.

SOB Lynn, if you had told me about the hat, it would've saved me about $400 in stones! :aargh:

While I've never seen it used on this forum, the reply "I'm not wearing any pants" is appropriate for this thread.

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Originally Posted by tiddle

As far as flattening the norton, soak the stone in the sink for about 15 minutes, then take a piece of 220 or 320 sandpaper, and adhere it to something you know is flat. Not wood, but stone, marble, hell a floor tile. Next take a pencil and draw a grid on the stone, stick both in the water and rub back and forth, in figure 8's, circles, whatever, until the grid is gone. Do this 3 or four more times. The 4k is gonna take a while, but the 8k should only take 10-15 mins. to do. Once that's done, let the stone dry completely out over a few days before storing, or it will grow mildew on it. When you here about chamfering the edges of the stone, just slightly round off the square and pointed edges before switching sides, that's to prevent your edge from catching and dinging the blade and stone up. Take the others advice and send the razor out so you know what sharp really feels like, so you have a bar set for your own honing attempts. AOS stuff is fine, just way overpriced, but I guarantee you no one in that store has done more than open the box and put that razor on a display; I seriously doubt none of them have used one, else they would tell you it needs to be honed before using. Honestly, I can see why you are frustrated, but blame the person who sold you the razor for their ignorance, not the hobby or process. That's why everyone here will tell new guys which places to buy their first blades from b/c we know "who" sharpened that steel, and we know that they DID put a usable edge on it before selling.

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Thank you for this information. I appreciate it.

And Yes I agree completely on the fact that it was not shave ready sharp out of the box. I was most definitely a victim of the sales person, who told me it was shave ready out of the box and does not need to be sharpened. I wish I did some research before hand but it was more of a spontaneous buy that I always wanted to get into.

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Could you tell us about your equipment too? I noticed from your intro that you went to AOS and I'm not very familiar with their razors ( a bit pricey for my taste ) but would love to hear about them. I've heard mostly good things about AOS other then their prices so I'm eager to hear how that's working for you.

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I ended up purchasing the following from there:

• The Art of Shaving - Cocobolo Dark Wood Razor - Straight Razors from The Art of Shaving
• The Art Of Shaving - Full Size Shaving Kit Unscented Badger Black Brush
• The Art of Shaving - Small Hanging Strop - The Art of Shaving - Buy Razor Accessories

Just another reg flag I should of caught when he sold me the strop, I told him from the get-go I was a complete novice to this.. yet he sold me a strip that is very small and required me to learn how to strop with an x pattern. Which I am getting down.. but would of preferred the most fool proof method.

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

All I see is someone who wants to blame the tools, instead of the user. It's the razor, not me. It's the SRP library, not me. It's the Norton, not me.

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In this case I really strongly believe the blade did not come shave ready.

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Originally Posted by zib

Hi, and Welcome to the forum. This hobby can be "Daunting" at first, like any thing else new to you.
Once you get a handle on it, learn the lingo, learn how to use the tools, etc...it will be enjoyable like you mentioned. Don't get discouraged. The library is being worked on. Lapping is relatively easy, and as mentioned, Most razors are not shipped shaved ready.

You remind me of, "me" when I first started. I couldn't believe all the stuff out there, and didn't know where to begin. Joining this forum is a good start.

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Thank you for the kind words.

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Originally Posted by mjsorkin

Dude, if you are pissed now then wait till you try honing.

Here's a clue: it's hard also. So if you think the 4/8 is going to solve your problem you may be disapointed. strongly consider getting your blade honed by a pro.

My advice is to read as much as you can on this forum, Find a mentor here to answer questions, and enjoy your journey.

Also, if you have a complaint about the library please put that in the suggestion forum. Make sure to be specific and also be grateful for this FREE service.

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Not really a complaint, just something I would really like to read into.

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Originally Posted by Lynn

WOW!!

Welcome to SRP.

Sorry that having to learn about straight razor shaving and honing is so hard on you. It really does take a little patience to learn about this art and your expectations cannot be unrealistic or immediate.

I do have a solution though. Pick up one of these and whenever you're frustrated, place your razor or razor and hone in the hat and wave the magic wand over it 3 times. Say the magic words "Great Shave" 3 times and then wait 15 seconds, pull your razor out of the hat and enjoy the best shave you have ever had in your life. YMMV

Attachment 111355

Actually, you have already been given some great advice. Hope you take advantage of it. There is a ton of information here and it is primarily directed at helping you become successful.

Have fun.

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hahah where can I get one of those?


I also want to throw out there that I am a senior web developer / computer programmer. I run a small web dev firm where I mostly white label my services. So if you admins/mods need help trying to figure out what's wrong with the library send me a PM and I am willing to help you guys out for free, I see this is a LAMP environment which is my expertise.

As far as sending my blade out to be honed by a pro I agree, but I would really like to learn this my self.. I wish there was someone local to me that could do it.. but no dice on that.

ON the same page tho I ordered by stone with a new straight razor from west coast shaving.. they state there blades are shave ready.. Has any one ordered a blade from them? If so - can you agree that they are shave ready out of the box?

That would be great for me to see what a shave ready razor would feel like and finally achieve my goal of that close shave that everyone is talking about.

Not sure about westcoastshaving.com as far as shave ready, could be, but I haven't heard who they use for their honing if they do. If it doesn't come absolutely shave ready, if you cover postage (I think it's about $3 last blade I mailed) I will set the bevels for FREE, send them back and you can go to learning how to use your stones to refine the edge, then later on learn how to set the bevel if you decide to get a coarser stone; or you can check out the Janorton thread, and gssixguns youtube videos for janorton on setting a bevel w/ the 4k. Up to you bro, whatever direction you go...luck be w/ you!

I can understand the OP's frustrations; I too was frustrated when I found out that my Norton had to be lapped. It's like "Dang!! I have to buy ANOTHER thing to start honing?!?" But you know what? That DMT 325 is the best $50 I ever spent. It laps perfectly, and is fantastic for raising a slurry (no slurry stone needed). Do yourself a favor and invest in a DMT 325 with a Stone holder....you'll be glad you did!! I know it's not cheap but it'll last you a lifetime... :)


Amazon.com: DMT D8C 8-Inch Dia-Sharp Continuous Diamond Coarse: Home Improvement

Amazon.com: Steelex D1091 Sharpening Stone Holder: Home Improvement

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Originally Posted by Bill S

I would be willing to bet that there are thousands of posts in hundreds of threads addressing just what you are dealing with now. If you read enough of them you will see that there is a shocking amount of similarity in many of the threads. What you are experiencing is not unusual at all. We all went through it.

Welcome to SRP.

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The important thing to remember is that if you stick with it and fight through these early problems, you'll pick it up, get proficient, and enjoy the process. Right now it all seems like a bit of a hassle and it is compared to popping a new cartridge into your Mach3. Fight through it and you'll be rewarded.

I hear you on the small strop. I recently upgraded to a full size Latigo from SRD and I love not having to do the X strokes anymore, makes things a hair more idiot proof. I've used AOS preshave oil before and its very good, and a little bit of it goes a long way. Be careful not to use to much though, I used what I thought was a good amount and it made my skin so slick I couldn't do the skin pulling necessary and wrecked my face. The irritation was something fierce! I haven't had good luck with the aftershave balm though, it feels nice but just doesn't calm down irritation well enough when it happens. Not sure about their creams or soaps since I haven't tried them yet.
Don't give up and accept no negativity! I was so stubborn when I first started that I went nearly a year shaving with a factory edge till I joined up on this forum and was very kindly informed I just spent nearly a year shaving with dull edge. I started on a small Illinois strop with mostly Colonel Conk equipment, so you're already doing better then I did when I first started by virtue of having far superior equipment and having the sense to ask for advice.

adamf85 welcome to straight shaving and to SRP, I am new also only shaving for just over a week now myself. Hang in there buddy it will come the thing is like the others have said there are many things to learn and many variables that could cause a shave to not be good.

I see that you wrote it would be nice to have someone local to you to hone your razor, where are you?

@dustoff003 I am in Buffalo, NY.

Welcome, Adam and remember that patience will overcome your problems. On the wide strops : In my opinion, X-strokes are desirable in stropping. For me, mandatory. Regardless of strop width, long x's are the most effective of stropping strokes. It is absolutely no harder than stropping straight on a wide strop. Obviously, you guys have no smiling edges to strop or you would quickly see. Ask yourself why hones are not made in 3 inch widths. Ask yourself why 3 inch strops(after hundreds of years) are a relatively new product. JMHO, YMMV, etc, and so forth.

That's interesting Sharptonn. It's true I don't have any blades with smiling edges, perhaps my improvement in shaving quality wasn't due to my change in technique but simply that my new strop is just better. After all my old Illinois strop had lots of noobie damage and my new one is getting used properly.

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Originally Posted by adamf85

@dustoff003 I am in Buffalo, NY.

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Thank you sir. I am originally from Poughkeepsie, my father went to Barber School in Buffalo. I am sure there is someone in your area to help you out. You can search the member directory by location.

☺
(Duplicate sorry)

It all really not that bad. If you need a break after reading all this a great video to watch on technique is: Sweeney Todd !
Just keep telling yourself that everyone in the 1800's shaved this way. How hard can it be? None of them even knew how to drive a car!!

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Originally Posted by jpcwon

...I can understand the OP's frustrations; I too was frustrated when I found out that my Norton had to be lapped. It's like "Dang!! I have to buy ANOTHER thing to start honing?!?"...

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And THEN some smartarse tells you you've gotta lap the thing you're using to lap the hone!!!
Is there no END to this madness!!!

It take a couple of months to get the hang of all this, in my opinion, then it starts to gel. NORMALLY the library section is where you'd start, but I liked human interaction better anyway so just posted a lot of questions like the OP.

I may have missed it if it was aid, but OP, where are you? You may have someone nearby who's willing to show you how to hone, strop, etc. I learnt all that from the videos and threads, but it would have been really cool to meet up with someone. You know, a year after starting this journey I've never actually seen anyone esle strop, hone or shave with a straight in 'real life'...

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Originally Posted by adamf85

Ok this new hobby of mine is more becoming a hassle.. The straight razor I bought a couple weeks ago can't give me a close shave at all. My Mach 3 is out performing it bar none.. SO I am figuring that the blade might not be sharp enough.. I bought it at a local mall ended up spending over $500 for a Dovo razor and silver tip brush and the whole 9..

Well anyways - I bought a Norton 4/8k online and should be here today, but now I am reading I have to BUY ANOTHER thing to lap it? wtf? really?

I also saw some people that said I can just use sand paper, if that is the case.. what kind of sand paper should I buy as far as grit?

sorry for the rant, but this is becoming more of a hassle then enjoyable in which I was really looking forward to.

PS. Please fix your library section.

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You are a prime example why I could never be or be made, a Moderator on this forum. I have no patience for the garbage post, you opened with.

Straight shaving is not for everyone, friend.

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

I may have missed it if it was aid, but OP, where are you?

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He is in Buffalo, NY

Adam, the single most important tool any craftsman or do-it-yourselfer can possess is patience.

Welcome to SRP Adam. As for someone local to show you the ropes, you may or may not be out of luck, it just depends on your thoughts on a road trip. I suggest you PM Dylan aka "holli4pirating" his location states he lives in Rochester, NY., so he may be able to meet up with you to give you some help. I have a razor honed by him and it shaves like a dream. If that's not an option, then send it out to a member who offers honing services, they can be found in the "Classifieds" here under "Member Services" at least this way you'll have a reference point to start with as you learn to hone. Hope this helps and keep us posted.

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Originally Posted by adamf85

I also want to throw out there that I am a senior web developer / computer programmer. I run a small web dev firm where I mostly white label my services. So if you admins/mods need help trying to figure out what's wrong with the library send me a PM and I am willing to help you guys out for free, I see this is a LAMP environment which is my expertise.

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That's fantastic, however the hardworking admins,developers,mods, and others that make this forum possible might not see your offer if they don't read this thread, so if you're are willing to help fix issues that need fixing or issues that arise, you may want to either post an offer to help in the "Site Help, Comments, & Suggestions" forum or send a few PM's to those in the know.

Brother, you have entered the rabbit hole, it is so narrow that you cannot turn around and go back out the way you came. It's not a scratch ticket. This site is fun maze.
Ok, so let's say some generous skilled member makes your razor 'shave ready.' Know that only the razor will be shave ready. There is a mysterious confluence of other facts that must occur for you to enter the kingdom of shave heaven. Hope you stay calm and carry on.

Ditto on the DMT 325 diamond plate instead of sandpaper for lapping. It's got other uses around the home as well, you can sharpen anything with that from kitchen knives to lawnmower blades. Personally I would go with the 325/1200 combo.

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Originally Posted by tiddle

SOB Lynn, if you had told me about the hat, it would've saved me about $400 in stones! :aargh:

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Maybe so, but the hat costs $800 minimum. More if you use one from Belgium or Japan.:w:D

I just checked out SRD's page and did not find the section for magic honing hats, they must be pretty rare. :)

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

You are a prime example why I could never be or be made, a Moderator on this forum. I have no patience for the garbage post, you opened with.

Straight shaving is not for everyone, friend.

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I meant no negativity from this 'garbage' post.

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Originally Posted by ReardenSteel

Welcome to SRP Adam. As for someone local to show you the ropes, you may or may not be out of luck, it just depends on your thoughts on a road trip. I suggest you PM Dylan aka "holli4pirating" his location states he lives in Rochester, NY., so he may be able to meet up with you to give you some help. I have a razor honed by him and it shaves like a dream. If that's not an option, then send it out to a member who offers honing services, they can be found in the "Classifieds" here under "Member Services" at least this way you'll have a reference point to start with as you learn to hone. Hope this helps and keep us posted.

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Rochester is not far from me at all. Thank you for this I will hit him up

Adam, mate, we really hope you hang around, mainly because we know you'll learn a lot. The great thing about teaching is the teacher KNOWS he's just given someone something he didn't have before, which is really fulfilling. You might not know the site crashed a little while ago and some of us are still getting over the withdrawal symptoms, so, even though you said 'please' possibly the 'fixing the library' comment seemed harsh to some, combined with the word 'rant'. Now, I'm not really the right one to be talking about language styles, esp as I'm barely controlled as it is, but I think everything will be cool.

It really is worth hanging in there, cause aside from the experience (once you know how) the whole learning thing really starts to feel good once you work out how many facets this all has. I've been using a straight for a year, and I haven't even STARTED to scratch the surface of honing. I think you'd need to live many lifetimes to be good at it all (Lynn and others are exceptions, they are very, very old you know; hundreds of years I understand)...

Carl

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Originally Posted by adamf85

Rochester is not far from me at all. Thank you for this I will hit him up

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i sent three razors to dylan two years ago, one for my brother in law who has never used it because he was put on coumadin, and two for me. i bought a norton, a small coticule and a king 200/1000 (both from dylan) and a phig, and an srd strop and a bunch of barber hones, and i haven't had to send a razor out since.

there is an investment of time and patience in learning how to hone. i recently watched gssixgun's video on the back and forth style in the janorton thread and did three razors with it and got a good shave off each one.

i use wet/dry paper to lap the norton, and right now i'm keeping it simple and don't bother with a finisher. i'm trying to get a good shave/edge off the norton. there are so many techniques for honing a razor i was overwhelmed. i like the back and forth method and am going to stick with that for a while.

If you want to add a different and cheaper and easier way to hone, you could try lapping film. I've been straight razor shaving since July and have Japanese natural stones, a coticule and some barber's hones. I've tried honing on the JNATs and coticule and just haven't gotten the feel for it yet. I keep thinking about getting a 1K, 4K,8K Norton, but keep putting it off. The barber's hones are great for a quick touchup.

So after reading some threads on this and other forums about lapping film, I bought some and was successful in quick and easy bevel setting and progressive honing with just the film. It is especially easy for honing hollow grounds. Wedges are a bit more difficult for me and require more layers of tape. I use 12u,9u,5u,3u,1u,.3ul film and in that order. Set the bevel with 12 and go to lower microns to finish. I often add some stropping on CrOx on wood, linen and leather strop.

I do not think your question was "garbage". It does seem daunting to have to get hones and then something to "flatten" the hone. I'm sure once you've played with the Norton and lapping it, it will seem less daunting...or you could try the lapping film and feel heartened once again.

I know your grief,
I am 66 years old...In my life I have built 2 airplanes (one from scratch) restored several cars, self taught every kind of welding and machine operation. I was also self employed for 31 years. Ready for any challenge right?
Wrong. I have been sharpenng and shaving with straights for 3 years and have never had a harder hobby than this to master. Am I there yet? No...I learn every time I sharpen my razors or shave my face. Welcome to the challenge. You might not have the temperment required but you will be rewarded if you press on. Patients is the name of the game. Watch some of the videos by Lynn and gssixgun and you will learn more in the few min. it takes to watch than you will ever learn on your own. There is a welth of info here on SRP and everyone here is on your side as you will soon learn.

Now...Lynn was kidding about the magic but the true magic is when you have a good shave with a razor you sharpened yourself.
Stingray

Do yourself a favor and send it out for honing. It will give you future reference as to what sharp is when you start honing yourself. There are plenty of folks that will do it for free on the forums and plenty of pay to play sites. You can learn to hone or learn to shave. It sucks to do both at the same time. I did it but wouldn't recommend it.