Possible bad hone

I'm new to the forum and new to honing. I just got my Norton Starter set in the mail today. I've got 2 questions if anyone could help me out with. And for the record my razor simply has "Professional Razor" stamped on it. It was part of a "starter" set I bought off of Amazon.com a few months ago.

1. There is discoloration in the 8K side of the stone, is this normal? Where the discoloration is, it is also very rough.
I know people say they need to be lapped up to an 1/8 of an inch before being able to be used. But this seems like it might be a defect to me. I lapped it for 5 minutes and it slightly improved but not much.

2. Should I learn to hone on my cheap razor or learn to hone on a razor that can take an edge? I know I need a decent razor, but don't want to ruin a decent one learning to hone on it. But then, how can I learn on a razor that can't take an edge?

And I've gotten a few decent shaves off the cheap razor, but nothing better then what an electric razor could do.

Pics will help a lot here. If you have only lapped 5mins on the 4k, you are nowhere near enough into it. It will probably take you about 20-30 mins the first time. Go to gssixgun's youtube vid of him lapping the nortons. You'll need something to lap the stone and a pencil, and water of course :p Some of the stones can have some slight discoloration from the dyeing process during manufacturing, but as long as there are no chips, cracks, lumps, bumps, after you lap it true it should be fine.

First on the hone a pic of what you are talking about will help. The Morton's are pretty easy to lap but it still takes a bit of time the first time.

Unfortunately that razor won't take a shaving edge. So practice honing on it really won't help you. Where it can help you is to practice stropping with it as it is a lot less likely to tear up your strop if you make a mistake.

You didn't mention anything about your strop how is that?

Ok, ignore the defective hone comment. Rookie mistake.
I was lapping it during the day and didn't notice how much the lapping was helping with the discoloration until after getting it under some nice harsh florescent lighting. I can see I still have some lapping to do, but it is improving. I am a little impatient.

I'm pretty good at stropping. Well at least I think I am. As in the razor doesn't quickly degrade after honing. And the stropping motion for whatever reason came natural to me. The X-stroke on honing is another story.

I'm really glad I saw gssixgun's video where he shows someone how to hone. It made me feel better that it isn't just me that had trouble going from watching a video on-line to becoming a master.

How much damage could i do to a decent razor while learning to hone on it? I just hate the idea of spending $70 on a low end DOVO only to destroy it.

It's possible that your stone may have a blemish, contact the seller 7 discuss this with him.

Next time help everyone photos, if you can.

Take a ruler next to your stone & see that 1/8 of an inch to lap is quite a bit; excessive in my opinion. Do you remember where you got this 1/8 lapping guide? My new Norton lapped flat in under 5 minutes, under running water with a DMT 325, the finished her with 2000 3M wet/dry.

Practice on a razor that you are confident in. This sets a better standard for comparison in your future honing.

I picked up the 1/8 I think in one of the videos on here, I can't find it now.

My problem is I only have one razor and it is cheap.

I have seen the 1/8th of an inch before and actually think it was in something Lynn wrote in the wiki.

If you're looking for a practice razor, check out whippeddog.com for a sight unseen razor. Won't break the bank and you can get one already honed so you know what to try for. Or if you are comfortable knowing what a shave ready razor feels like, get one not honed.
Even if you destroy the razor, you're only out about $40.

I have to agree with Hirlau, 1/8" would seem to be excessive. I followed gssixgun's video, doing the honing under water, and it took me no more than 5 minutes per side to go from gritty feeling to baby's butt smooth. Material removed? Who knows...but it was very little, at the most 1/128". A good diamond lapping stone is the key.

Just my two cents.

Randy

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Originally Posted by Castel33

I have seen the 1/8th of an inch before and actually think it was in something Lynn wrote in the wiki.

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I will search the Wiki for any refer to 1/8 of an inch, needed to lap a Norton.
I don't think that this measurement is a standard given by Lynn.
If it is, I will gladly correct myself here.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi...d_honing_guide

Here check out the part where he talks about lapping

Thank you,
I can't argue that Lynn referenced lapping off 1/8 of an inch on the Nortons, it's there in black & white.
Lynn sets the standard in honing.
I was wrong.

Lap off an 1/8 of an inch, if you feel you need to. :shrug:

Hirlau, not that I measured it when I started, but I doubt I need an 1/8 lapped off seeing the progress it is making no that I worked on it more. But I do need to lapp more then I already have.

And thank you Crunchthetroll for the whippeddog suggestion. I love the idea of buying a razor without a care for what it looks like. At this stage I am in it for the function. But I'm sure in a year, the collector in me will start taking over and looks will mean something to me.

The 8k side didn't take much to lap it flat. Mine had a darker yellow color to start, but once I lapped it it was bright yellow. The 4k side on the other hand I had to lap it quite abit to make it smooth so it wouldn't have the "orange peel" texture to it, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't 1/8. The way I look at it is that you have to remove as much as needed to make it flat and smooth, but it shouldn't take more than 1/8 at the most.

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Originally Posted by mdshaver

Hirlau, not that I measured it when I started, but I doubt I need an 1/8 lapped off seeing the progress it is making no that I worked on it more. But I do need to lapp more then I already have.

And thank you Crunchthetroll for the whippeddog suggestion. I love the idea of buying a razor without a care for what it looks like. At this stage I am in it for the function. But I'm sure in a year, the collector in me will start taking over and looks will mean something to me.

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IMHO the depth that is removed during the lapping process is really irrelevant. What you are aiming for is flatness, not a particular thickness. Take a pencil, mark a grid on the hone. When that has been removed, repeat to make sure the pencil marks weren't just washed away. When the marks have been removed by the lapping plate/stone then you know that your hone is flat and true. Maybe that will take 1/8" off, maybe 1/64", maybe something else. But if you have it flat, don't keep lapping just for the sake of it. :)

Good luck

EDIT: note that Lynn said "about 1/8" off the 4k side" (emphasis mine)

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Originally Posted by Cangooner

IMHO the depth that is removed during the lapping process is really irrelevant. What you are aiming for is flatness, not a particular thickness. Take a pencil, mark a grid on the hone. When that has been removed, repeat to make sure the pencil marks weren't just washed away. When the marks have been removed by the lapping plate/stone then you know that your hone is flat and true. Maybe that will take 1/8" off, maybe 1/64", maybe something else. But if you have it flat, don't keep lapping just for the sake of it. :)

Good luck

EDIT: note that Lynn said "about 1/8" off the 4k side" (emphasis mine)

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+ 1

It is folly to think that the magical properties of the venerable Norton are hiding under 1/8 inch of slag that must be ground off.

Get it flat, hone a blade, repeat. Some hones will require far less than 1/8 inch, some may require far more. Grinding off more than necessary to get it flat makes as much sense to me as grinding your 8/8 down to a 6/8 to get to the good stuff.

That said, there did seen to be a film of coarser material on my 4k, but it was gone by the time it was flat.

Now for the ubiquitous: YMMV :D

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Originally Posted by unit

Now for the ubiquitous: YMMV :D

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I knew I was forgetting something! :gaah:

unit --
Of course, there is the illicit, highly illegal black market trade on pure, uncut Norton dust...

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Originally Posted by mdshaver

I picked up the 1/8 I think in one of the videos on here, I can't find it now.

My problem is I only have one razor and it is cheap.

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I picked up a good razor cheap on e-bay. (9.97 ) Good, I mean good steel, respectable since the day it was made (maybe 1950) Just one way to go. There are tons of them out there. Just watch for hone marks, cracks and rust is what I did. It will need honing when you get it believe me.

Just another thing to think about I would get a shave ready blade and learn to shave with that first before diving to far into honing.

Absolutely.

My three Nortons didn't need more than a half or a mm lapped off the 4k side, the 8k was good after the first lapping.

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Originally Posted by crunchthetroll

If you're looking for a practice razor, check out whippeddog.com for a sight unseen razor. Won't break the bank and you can get one already honed so you know what to try for. Or if you are comfortable knowing what a shave ready razor feels like, get one not honed.
Even if you destroy the razor, you're only out about $40.

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Not even that much. For a sight unseen razor with cosmetic flaws which won't affect the edge, you'll only pay $25. I know because I have one on the way to me now. Bargain I think!

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Originally Posted by Bluebriz

Not even that much. For a sight unseen razor with cosmetic flaws which won't affect the edge, you'll only pay $25. I know because I have one on the way to me now. Bargain I think!

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Or sometimes less...if you happen onto the right estate sale at the right time...


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8512/8...ce39fdff54.jpg

I took my brother out to lunch at a fast food joint yesterday and that cost me more than I paid for all three of these!

Nothing against Whipped Dog, but if you just want to learn to hone, you can get great deals on decent razors if you educate your self a bit;)

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Originally Posted by unit

Or sometimes less...if you happen onto the right estate sale at the right time...


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8512/8...ce39fdff54.jpg

I took my brother out to lunch at a fast food joint yesterday and that cost me more than I paid for all three of these!

Nothing against Whipped Dog, but if you just want to learn to hone, you can get great deals on decent razors if you educate your self a bit;)

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True enough, but whipped dog was mentioned and then the $40 price mentioned, so I was just saying it needn't be so Much. In my case I have non-shave ready razors, but never had a shave ready one to compare them to so 25 shave ready is a good enough deal for me. :0).

Most of the differences in how much the Norton 4k needs to be lapped comes from the fact they have been made in 3 different places over the years..

When I bought my first one in 2007 the 4k was made in the USA and required maybe 1 minute of lapping to get even and smooth..
Next they were made in Mexico and the first ones out were really bad, and required extensive lapping which led to the 1/8" reccomendation
These eventually got better
The more recent ones are made in Italy and are pretty good but still more lapping then the original USA mades..

The 8k has also changed over the years and require a bit more lapping now then in the past, the recent ones I have done take a bit more work then the older ones AFAIK these are all made in the USA...


So it isn't that we are trying to confuse anyone it is that the Nortons are changing :)

Regardless the advise above is correct "Lap until level and smooth" :)

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Originally Posted by Bluebriz

True enough, but whipped dog was mentioned and then the $40 price mentioned, so I was just saying it needn't be so Much. In my case I have non-shave ready razors, but never had a shave ready one to compare them to so 25 shave ready is a good enough deal for me. :0).

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Absolutely! I am just bragging :D

It looks like I've taken a little bit of advice from everyone, thank you all very much.

My whippeddog razor shipped today. This way I'll know what a properly honed edge feels like.

I lapped some more off of the stones (not an 1/8 though) and was able to improve the edge on my cheapo razor. This gives me hope for my honing future, strangely the honing process is very enjoyable to me.

And I'll be hitting up flea markets for some razors to "play" with and try and get shave ready. I realize this will take me a long time to master, but you've got to start somewhere.