Why do some Japanese stones cost so much more than others of the same size?
If you go to some of these stone retailers in Japan or on their online internet stores you can look at hundreds of stones, and you know that they most likely have hundreds if not thousands more in storage. Most of the the stones look pretty much the same, but some cost 4 or 5 time more. Why?
Alx
I'm assuming that they were cut from more rare mines. they are also priced based on not only the rareness but the ability to cut and how they perform
Some places charge by the weight as well.
I want to hear Alex's answer to the question! :rofl2:
There is one whole category of these stones that are collectors items in Japan and they are collected for their rarity based on provenance and appearance. These stones sell for 4 figures and up. Then the sellers over there know there is a mania for Japanese stones over here so they get whatever they can for them and unless you really know the seller or are very well versed on the stones you had better watch out. Rarity, size and history will determine the price (or should).
The only Jnats I know of that you still can get dirt cheap is Amakusa, their mine is still open but stones are mostly 1k.
Tamba Aoto are even cheaper, and complete JunkQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Cool question Alex :))Quote:
Originally Posted by alx
My guess would be rarity and/or hype. I think we've all seen different items in this sport take on a life of thier own. I've never owned a jnat nor even had a razor honed on one for that matter. Nothing against the guys that do have them, but for me personally I just couldn't see myself shelling out thousands for a stone. It's all relative I guess... some people would think I'm a kook for what I spend on tobacco pipes and crystals...lol.
全く :p I agree completely. Ok, Eschers are rare. Search on the web and, except from the 5x1" Celebrated, Escher wannabe, stuff, chances are you might or might not find one. Or the French stone. Or the Water of Ayr. Or the Schwedenstein (not sure which is this one, I was just checking my notes) and the list goes on. You will not be able to find any of those.
Then, check the Jnats. You'll find like a million of them with a price 100kĄ+ on thousands of vendors. Is this what we call rare? And, all of them are this great? On Christmas I thought about getting one, but after checking their prices, Santa will have to wait another 10 years, and then, he might bring me a new car instead.
You can find quality Jnat for Escher price, and it will be bigger piece of rock too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catrentshaving
try 20 Eschers and you will find the results are similarQuote:
Originally Posted by Vasilis
try 20 Jnats and you will find they all are different. A real top quality Jnat is much harder to find than a big Escher.
Kind of like asking why two cars that are the same size have different costs. There are loads of other factors.
Well, you are running the exact same business, so may be you could start by explaining your pricing structure.Quote:
Originally Posted by alx
Why are you charging for some stones many times what you are charging for other stones?
It seems to me that asking people to speculate on why somebody does something, while not explaining why are you doing that thing is rather peculiar.
Or am I missing something here and your question is not really a question?
I'll take a stab at it.
My guess: A combination of weight, dimensions, rarity, trademarking, ease of use, effectiveness of the stone, and verifiable provenance. I'm not sure what the actual matrix would be. But those would all be factors for me in choosing the price of a stone. Not a big difference between trademarking and verifiable provenance I suppose...but since stones can have fake stamps, I included the latter. Do they make paper copy "Certificates of Provenance" for Jnats? :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
I was working with the assumption that Alex wanted to start the topic, so as to get people educated. I bet he gets lots and lots of people asking "why is THIS stone so much more money than THAT stone?"
I get the same thing with my wine. Sure, you can buy cheaper, but just because its the same style of wine, doesnt mean its the same quality!
Yes, but the way he's started it doesn't really fit that. He is asking for people to speculate about something, instead of offering his knowledge on the subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magpie
There are many threads on this forum where people ask these same questions because they want to know the answer. Answering them with the knowledge you have seems to me like far more simple, straightforward and effective, than starting another one by asking a question you should have a decent answer for.
Imagine if all the vendors of shaving equipment start threads of the same sort:
'There are so many razors out there and some cost 20-30 times what others do - why?' -- mr razor seller
'There are so many strops - some cost as little as $5 others $500 - why?' -- mr stropmaker
'There are so many creams and soaps - some are just $0.99, others are $50 - why?' -- mr wonder shaving cream
Hello Gugi
I started the topic because I simply am truly interested in what other members percieve to be the reason why two stones of the same size can vary so much in price at the retail level. There is no mystery in my intentions here, I am just curious.
As a simple member here I have been hesitant to add to the post much further because of the protocol regarding self-advertising. My question, and it did end with a question mark, was really just that, a question.
What the other members have posted follows much of my understanding as to how stones are marked-up along the way from miner to user, it is a lot like the Safeway grocery selling you cabbages, they don't grow them themselves they are just a cog in the wheel.
There are physical characteristics in stones that everyone in Japan follows along the path when grading stones, and I would not mind chiming in regarding those if you like.
I hope this helps some how. with best regards, Alx
Alx how about answering your own question?Quote:
Originally Posted by alx
Its hard to answer your own question without seeming self serving/promoting. =P
Alex, since everybody has pretty much requested your opinion, I think you have free reign to offer up your insites to the business if you wish.
Gugi, thats ok, right?
If you're lucky, it's because the seller and or the miner both know that the stone costing several times as much have characteristics that would make it worth so much to a well educated and discerning user.
Any decent hard japanese natural stone can make a shaving edge that is pretty good. But the other however many % the rest is (the silky feel, the ease of use, and other non feel things like colors for rarity purposes)....that's going to cost some money.
The real reason being that the discerning users (and to some extent sometimes a prestige buyer who is just buying on price) will pay the price.
The rules are clear - no advertising and self-promotion, explicit or overt outside of the designated areas. And no running of market research projects either. Nothing has changed about these for as long as I have been a moderator.
It surely isn't all that hard to simply help people by answering their questions, or to have straightforward discussions.
Sleek&smooth, mainaman, magpie, Dave and others.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
Some of you know by now that I tend to write in volumes, but I'll just save that for my own. In short, the above fellows and a few others I think have it quite right, it really is all about quality. You cannot fake the characteristics of quality, and quality includes speed and fineness. There are some mundane looking and or some small stones out there that are just killer finishers. Quality will always be the most important aspect in a luxury top class stone and this is the main factor in my opinion why two stones can reside at on the same page, one is at the top, one is at the bottom and a whole slew are in the middle.
In 1978 I bought in Japan a 6 year old Toyota Crown sports car with right hand steering, I swear it looked exactly like a Masserati. Believe me, they keep the good ones there.
best regards, Alx
I was kind of hoping for volumes. I enjoy reading, and thats where I get most of my learning. Oh Well. =)