My New Narutaki Asagi from Alex

Some background: After experimenting w/ various submicron sprays for almost a year, I came to the conclusion that I greatly prefer the edge from a fine natural hone. I thought it was high time for another Jnat as a 5 year straight shaving anniversary/30th birthday/career-picking-up-speed present to myself.

After doing loads of research & having owned a few Jnats, I knew pretty well what I was looking for: ultra-fine, fast cutting (it's all too easy to dull an edge by being a bit careless when doing lots of circles), good feedback and not too hard (I hate that greasy, skipping feel you can get from a glazed stone surface).

I emailed Alex about stones in general & we started to talk. I eventually settled on a 5.75x3 Narutaki asagi (lvl 5 hardness; lvl 5+ in everything else such as fineness & speed). It was also very reasonably priced--quite a bit less than my previous stones, in fact. He even made a video of using that stone to hone a razor using the "Ax Method" & sent me that razor plus 1 more so I could compare the edges I was getting to the originals. :tu

On Sat, the package arrived. The test shave on both razors was superb. Very effortless shave & very comfortable. I then started playing on my own razors. The results so far: I love this stone! :y

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About the stone: med hard, super fine, & ultra fast. As in stupid fast. As in: can completely wipe out all scratches from a DMT 1200 (if you've ever used one of these, you know how deep the scratches are...) in about 40 short strokes w/ a light-med slurry made w/ a diamond plate!!! So fast on water, I can overhone in as little as 20 strokes (have to be careful on water & in fact I probably will only do 5 strokes on pure water after thinning the slurry out). When I don't go quite so overboard on the water strokes, a good hard razor is DE sharp or better, but infinitely more comfortable on the skin.

Alex included a tomonagura as well, which I think I'll use when a razor is close & just needs a little extra as I love the speed of this thing when used w/ a diamond plate for slurry. No need for expensive naguras on this baby!

In short, Alex was great to deal with, even to the extent of making a YouTube video to show me how he got his results on this stone & of course sold me an amazing stone. I highly recommend him if you're looking for a good razor Jnat!

Any link to the video?

Alex is a jnat expert. I am happy you found a stone you will enjoy.

Medium hard, ultra fast stones are rarely superfine & rarely reasonably priced. If you've lucked out like that I'd buy a lotto ticket.

although I dont care too much for them, that hone looks like it would work fabulous :) thanks for sharing. I love pictures lol

kamisori479

Grit is 5+ out of 5+ and the shave test doesn't lie. What else can I say? ;) Maybe I should clarify & say hardness is closer to just plain "hard" (5 out of 5+). I described it as medium to distinguish it from the ultra hard rocks that are popular now in razordom. It doesn't give off any visible slurry when on plain water.

The video:

#479 kamisori toishi - YouTube

First my jnat disclaimer, hehe!
"All jnats are different, so what I say might not apply to your hone!"

I listen to the sound when he's honing and that tells me it's not so fine.
On my finishers I use for razors there is no sound at all, other than the tick when you put the razor to the stone.
I know sometimes microphones pick up some sounds more than others but it's still a noisy stone.
That said, if used with a light touch you might still get e nice edge, as you said you got.
But I'm with Onimaru55, fast and fine don't go hand in hand.
If I want it? You bet! ;)

Edit; He is using a diamond plate as nagura, that will get bigger particles in the slurry than if you would have used a tomo nagura.
That will also make for more noise.
I also compared the sound with his other videos, and even the Nakayama Asagi video is quite noisy but again, diamond nagura.
You really have to try this stone with a good tomo nagura and work it so the slurry breaks down to nothing.
One question, does it self slurry?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

But I'm with Onimaru55, fast and fine don't go hand in hand.

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I didn't say that. There are fast, fine hard stones but they aren't reasonably priced.

From the video it looks like a nice medium hard pre-polisher. I don't say that to be derogatory as you can get a great edge from that kind of stone , after all people even get great shaves from Norton 8k's, just that if it can remove DMT 1200 scratches quickly it is not as fine as a slower harder polisher.

Well, then I got you wrong, sorry about that!

Then I stand by this alone, fast and fine don't go hand in hand, but that's a question on how one define "fast" and "fine".
In my book you have to choose or go down the middle!

I have never heard of a ultra fast superfine stone, but I would sure want one!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

I have never heard of a ultra fast superfine stone, but I would sure want one!

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It's a relative expression. It just means there are polishers that cut fast for there fineness. They are still polishers & by definition still slow compared to coarser stones.

To use an analogy, a 1k Chocera is reputedly faster than a 1k King yet they are both bevel setters.

Fast & Fine Finishing Hone = Shapton GS 16k to put it in perspective to a Synthetic

Just got back from cigar night. To answer everybody's questions & to clarify just a little bit:

I used a DMT 325 for slurry, but I have a tomonagura & when used it does cut slower & quieter. I've only tried it once on a blade that was just beginning to dull. When I said that the DMT scratches were removed I was only talking about the very edge under the scope--there are lots of scratches visible & even under the scope I can see traces, so perhaps my excitement got the better of me.

The stone does not give up any slurry @ all when used w/ water & no pressure finishing strokes.

I haven't experimented w/ staying on slurry a long time yet as I'm trying to see what the minimum is for a good shave first. I definitely want to try staying on slurry longer also.

As for the shaves (the part we really care about!:)), one of the razors Alex sent me was ultra smooth but still quite sharp--sharper than a Thurri & much sharper than a coticule (the one in the video) & my barber's W&B that I honed using the same method (but w/ lighter finishing strokes on a diluted slurry) was similar in sharpness (which I define as ease of beard cutting) to 0.5 crox. The razor I tested off the DMT was for fun & as I suspected, was not @ all shave ready so yes, the DMT to this stone is too big a jump, but the W&B jumping off a coticule edge was bang on.

More playing w/ my new toy awaits... Tomorrow. The nicotine jitters from the giant double ligero I smoked would probably wreak havoc w/ precision work... :D

It really seems to be a nice rock!
Keep us posted on your progress.

On the "fast and fine"; One of the things I really love about Jnats is the stones that self slurry with some pressure on them.
You can get lots of fresh steel chewing particles easy and when your up for finer honing you decrease the pressure and let the particles break down.
If that would be the case with a man made hone, I'll think we would call it genius!

Gssixgun; Shapton GS 16k sound good, is it in the mail? ;)

I purchased a couple of stones from alex last year, I guess, maybe two years ago for one. The other I purchased 6 or so years ago ( a suita stone for woodworking purposes).

I asked alex for a stone that had minimum dollars in appearance and maximum in performance and ended up with a stone that still isn't bested by anything I've bought since. It's still the only stone that I have, as well as a frictionite 821 and 825 that I got from a friend, that I would not sell under any circumstance because I would be afraid I couldn't find a stone as good for anything close to the price.

If your stone has no pores and can hold its grit like you say (not slurry at all on clear water), it will definitely be a good finisher.

We often hear about working the grit and crushing the grit, but I would have to see an electron microscope picture of grit before and after before I would believe that silica particles were being cracked into smaller pieces. I think they've being dulled instead, and the surface of the stone is being dulled. If you have a stone that will hold those particles, you can dull them with use and get a very fine finish. I have spent as much as $500 on a stone, which is still moderate territory for japanese stones, but the differences I find between the edges from the hard stones is based more on care of the user and pleasure of the stone (for example, some nakayama stones, especially stuff that fujibato sells, that can be monstrously hard, will not have a great feel. Same for hard shoubu stones).

I refuse to go up the ladder to stones that are several thousand dollars, because unless they are bought directly from hatanaka by me (which is a chance of zero) I don't believe that most of the stones out there are true maruka stones, or at least up to the standards of vintage maruka stones. Call it a hunch, it's human behavior. Once there is a demand for something and easy dissemination of information, all of the sudden the numbers grow (like "vintage" fender guitars).

DaveW; I don't know if they fracture, get dull, a combination of both or something else, but surely something is going on.
How do we figure that out?

someone with a scanning electron microscope.

Of course, you could also just rinse the swarf off of a stone that had been run through the "slurry breakdown" and see if it cuts finer without the "broken down" slurry on it.

I think a lot of the success with keeping slurry on a stone has to do with otherwise slow stones being able to work to the edge faster with the remaining slurry. There still should be room for improvement on clear water no matter what. Just my opinion, I don't have an SEM to find out for sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PA23-250

When I said that the DMT scratches were removed I was only talking about the very edge under the scope--there are lots of scratches visible & even under the scope I can see traces, so perhaps my excitement got the better of me.

The stone does not give up any slurry @ all when used w/ water & no pressure finishing strokes.

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Sounds more like a finishing stone now. ;)

That it is! :D Had my 5 year straight shaving/30th birthday shave this afternoon w/ the 1st razor I ever had a complete shave on. It's that extra hollow that's too soft to really support that thin grind. Not my favorite razor, but it's tradition.

Did tomo slurry until it was pretty pasty, then thinned to about half its original consistency (~10 circles 5 x strokes), went to 1/4 thickness & did the same, palm stropped (hairs flew off by now) & did about 5 strokes clear water. Stropped leather only & got just about the sharpest, most comfortable edge ever off that stone. 100% BBS. Needless to say, I'm impressed!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

First my jnat disclaimer, hehe!
"All jnats are different, so what I say might not apply to your hone!"

I listen to the sound when he's honing and that tells me it's not so fine.
On my finishers I use for razors there is no sound at all, other than the tick when you put the razor to the stone.
I know sometimes microphones pick up some sounds more than others but it's still a noisy stone.
That said, if used with a light touch you might still get e nice edge, as you said you got.
But I'm with Onimaru55, fast and fine don't go hand in hand.
If I want it? You bet! ;)

Edit; He is using a diamond plate as nagura, that will get bigger particles in the slurry than if you would have used a tomo nagura.
That will also make for more noise.
I also compared the sound with his other videos, and even the Nakayama Asagi video is quite noisy but again, diamond nagura.
You really have to try this stone with a good tomo nagura and work it so the slurry breaks down to nothing.
One question, does it self slurry?

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Hello Lemur
You are right, the sound is loud and because I use a diamond plate to make a coarse slurry it will sound louder or coarser than if you used a tomonagura. I like to use a tomonagura for the finishing stages leading to clear water, this is a technique that is popular. Also remember that my Iphone microphone is only 8 inches away from the stone and this exaggerates the sound.

The method I am using for the demonstration is The Ax Method, it is a sharpening technique, not a polishing technique. If you get a chance to use it I would appreciate it very much if you could give me a critique as to what you think of it. The Ax Method is a technique I developed to test stones abilities to quickly bring a razor to a shave ready stage. It is not a polishing method but it will easily provide a foundation bevel that you can then go to clear water or a different naguras for polishing.

Medium hard stones in the 4+, 5- or 5 range can be used for polishing bevels, and some of them will do it faster than an ultra hard stone in the 5+ or higher range. A slurry will always leave a footprint or scratch pattern of the slurry composition, and this is why it is important to use a tomonagura of the highest quality and of similar grit to your base stone. This is demonstrated with using Mikawa Aichi nagura, you begin with a slightly coarser nagura and finish with the finest nagura. Why would anyone want to finish with a lower grit stone?

Using a diamond nagura to make a slurry from the base stone is I have to admit a method that begins with quite large size grit particles because as Dave mentioned, the grit is dug out by the diamonds in large particles. The smaller or more worn out the diamond plate is, the smaller are the girt particles that you begin with. This is one reason way The Ax Method is so fast and the stones cut so quickly.

The grit found in Japanese stones from the Kyoto area is a type of silica called Chert. Chert - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many people think of silica in the form of sand which usually has a rounded shape, chert usually has an irregular form and the chert silica found in the Kyoto area stones has a flat plate type of shape that is easily chipped or broken. The North American Indians favored chert for their arrow and spear heads and they formed they by chipping them in a flecking manner, the chert cleaves off in very thin sharp slices. It is because of the nature of chert to fleck that it makes a very hard abrasive that will breakdown into smaller particles. Here are a couple of good paragraphs on the Tamba Terrane from whence the Kyoto stones come from.

Geology of Japan - Google Books

I hope these links work, but if not you can google The Geology of Japan or Tamba Terrane to get some of these same articles.

I hope this helps. Alx

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Fast & Fine Finishing Hone = Shapton GS 16k to put it in perspective to a Synthetic

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Hi Glen
I have the Shapton GS 30k stone, and it is really fast and really fine. Are you shaving with the GS 15k? And if so how do you compare it quality wise to a decent Jnat?
best regards, Alex

No I actually go to the 30k GS also, but the 16k is more then fine for a Finisher, I used it alone for probably 1000 razors.. I use Shaptons now for mostly only NY razors and a few Solingen brands.

Honestly I don't like comparisons, these Hones and Stones are all "Different" and when you toss in Naturals (of any type) you are geometrically expanding that difference, toss in different Naugura/Slurry stones and you just multiplied the variables again..
It really comes down the the hands pushing the steel, especially on these J-nats, how to read the edge and the slurry as it reacts to the edge..