These just came in!

So I had a couple rocks custom cut, each are 12" X 3" X 1" and come with slurry stones.

Top one is a Welsh slate at 15+K Thuringan (correct me if I have the wrong name)
And the second is a purple LLYN MELYNLLYN at +- 12K

I was wondering what is the best way to treat the surface? There are a few deep scratches in the face, would they cause issues? Is it possible to wreck the surface trying to smooth things out?

I have read a couple posts on the slates, but all its done is made me scratch my head. If someone can make an educated guesstimation from the pics and provide an opinion on how to finish the surface, I would appreciate it.

Now, I need to learn to use them correctly! lol!!

Here they are wet.
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps7fe5578a.jpg

You should really lap the stones flat before use - that will take care of the scratches. You can use a diamond plate such as a DMT 325, a stout piece of flat glass with wet'n'dry sandpaper and water, or glass with lapidary grit and water - there is plenty of info on this site about lapping and how to do it. Lapping to 325 grit is the minimum - the stones will perform better if lapped to 600 or higher, but work your way up from low grit to high in steps, eg, 240, 325, 400, 600.

I agree that one stone is probably finer (of a higher grit equivalence if you like, though you can't assign grit ratings to natural stones, its just a convenient bechmark for performance), but I would be very leery of those vastly over-inflated grit ratings you have got from somewhere. I wouldn't put the highest one at much over 10k, personally.

Regards,
Neil

Great stones! "As with all Naturals" as everyone here says and you will see over and over again, there is some variation in performance. Maybe I just got a 'good one' but my purple stone from AJ puts a nicer edge on my razors than the 12k naniwa (just my opinion) and I use them as pre-polishers for my jnats now. The "thuringian" which it is not, might slightly improve the edge. Very versatile hones. A few of the very senior guys have used them with great success, especially the purple one. The purple one was also used by Lynn to do the one stone honing, if i recall correctly.

Here's a thread about using these stones, the given names are purely a sales pitch: http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...ns-tongue.html

+1 With Neil

I have a set of these also and they are rather nice Finishers, in Glen's world anything that improves on a Norton 8k edge is a "Finisher" :)

Mine came pretty flat, and the "Well Worn" DMT 325 I have smoothed the surface right up

I named mine Greenish WHIG and Purple WHIG because the Names and Grit ratings out there are "Quaint" at best and down right misleading at worst


WHIG = Welsh Hone of Indeterminate Grit

Stolen from the term PHIG for the Chinese Guanxi Hone = People's Hone of Indeterminate Grit :)

I've got the black, purple and green ones too!
Really fun stones, fun in that way thickness of slurry and pressure really matters for the result, you have to get to know them well to get the most out of them.

I know very little about sharpinin' rocks, but, I know how my luck runs. For future photos, why not put them on something flat to take the picture. Balancing them on the center of the sink looks like the makings of a potential bad story. I'd hate to see your next post be something about cleaning up a chipped corner of a stone!

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Originally Posted by brooksie967

Maybe I just got a 'good one' but my purple stone from AJ puts a nicer edge on my razors than the 12k naniwa (just my opinion)

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So with that statement are you saying that it is a "Higher grit" then a 12k ????

Because that is exactly how many would perceive what you posted, which is exactly where AJ gets the idea to contuinue to boost the Grit ratings in his advertising, and the cycle continues...

Both these are from AJ, yes you can't peg a grit on a natural, but a "range" is helpful

@ Mattin103 Yes, this is the thread I read through, as well as the one Tim Zowada started.

These are excellent stones for learn how to squeeze the most from a finish stone. As said, finishing the stone properly does make a difference, most especially for a finish stone. I like a drop or two of Smith Honing Oil with water on these for final finishing.

Experimenting with slurry’s, sprays, viscosity and pressure will enlighten and entertain you for some time. In the end you will develop some skills.

Enjoy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

These are excellent stones for learn how to squeeze the most from a finish stone. As said, finishing the stone properly does make a difference, most especially for a finish stone. I like a drop or two of Smith Honing Oil with water on these for final finishing.

Experimenting with slurry’s, sprays, viscosity and pressure will enlighten and entertain you for some time. In the end you will develop some skills.

Enjoy

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+ 1 on that, that's exactly why I found them "fun".
Not bad stones either and the price is usually right.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

So with that statement are you saying that it is a "Higher grit" then a 12k ????

Because that is exactly how many would perceive what you posted, which is exactly where AJ gets the idea to contuinue to boost the Grit ratings in his advertising, and the cycle continues...

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I haven't the equipment to compare scratch patterns in a meaningful way. I personally like the edge it produces better than the razors I've finished on the 12k Naniwa, that's all I'm trying to say. Why do you and other people choose to finish razors on any of your hones? I see you finishing razors on the norton, coticules, naniwas, eschers; there has to be a reason for this other than "I just felt like using this stone today". For whatever reason, different steel, grinds, razors work better with different stones. Maybe it's just my luck, no idea Glen, but I really do like the edge it produces better than the 12k Naniwa 99% of the time.

Rookie question... For argument sake, lets say a given stone is in the 10 to 12K range. If the stone is used as received with a lapped 400 grit finish, and the other side gets worked and lapped to 600-800 or more, apart from the surface is there much of a difference is abrasion? Just thinking, the stone hasn't changed, it is still a 10 to 12K stone, that is smoother yes, but as far as its honing ability the structure of the stone is still unchanged...

I understand smoother stone/smoother finish, is this what it boils down to? The treatment the stone has received? Because the size of the abrasive has not changed.

AJ also cautioned me not to finish too fine, because of quartz being the abrasive, if its taken to fine it messes it up somehow? Thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brooksie967

I haven't the equipment to compare scratch patterns in a meaningful way. I personally like the edge it produces better than the razors I've finished on the 12k Naniwa, that's all I'm trying to say. Why do you and other people choose to finish razors on any of your hones? I see you finishing razors on the norton, coticules, naniwas, eschers; there has to be a reason for this other than "I just felt like using this stone today". For whatever reason, different steel, grinds, razors work better with different stones. Maybe it's just my luck, no idea Glen, but I really do like the edge it produces better than the 12k Naniwa 99% of the time.

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Ahhhhh see that is what I was digging for...

I have a personal pet peeve about Natural "grit" ratings as do many others.. I especially don't like when the Sellers start using them to promote their stones, I have said this many times, "Go back in the Archives before the Shaptons became popular, and you would be hard pressed to find many claims of any stones higher then 10k"
Now we have people claiming all sorts of numbers on all sorts of Stones and Hones.. I saw one earlier of a Barber Hone rated at over 12k...
We have AJ and the Polish guy on e-bay using this and now claiming 15k rating on the WHIGs and the PHIGs :rofl2: ie: the cycle continues and the numbers keep going up, the worst part is that you also can't prove that is not true.. This is all just guessing, or really a WAG

Saying the edge produced feels better on your face I agree with, and say the same, but the variablity of why, has so much more involved then simply grit ratings..
It could be something as simple as you are more comfortable using the WHIG then you are using the Naniwa... :shrug:

Scratch patterns, are another huge source of Mis-information as are Micrographs, they lead to many assumptions based on the looks of the Bevel, instead of the performance of the edge...

This all of course is JMHO, but honestly I laugh everytime I see a higher number claimed... The best was the guy claiming 50k Japanese naturals and within 6 months he changed it to 100k.. You can't really call it wrong, but ya sure can smile..

I have used these stones, post 12K and felt an improvement in edge comfort. I have several and each perform similar to others of their color.

Therein lies the problem, is it a 12K edge, I doubt it. I believe they are similar to a Coticule in mechanical performance. Most Coticules are not 12K edges either, but because of the nature of the stone construction and abrasives, can produce a more comfortable edge that higher grit synthetic edges. These Grey & Purple friable stones and Coticules can lend themselves to a higher polished edge and thus more a comfortable shaving edge.

When we talk about finishing we are talking about polishing the edge. On natural stones we are at a huge disadvantage because there is so much variety in the stone construction process (Nature) and we cannot determine grit size, so we compare the edge to a known synthetic stone. Based on what, Stria, keenness, comfort or some other subjective observation? Or does it simply improve a synthetic edge? Synthetic stones do not break down as much due to consistent size and density of grit.

It is much like sandpaper, we can achieve a finer finish with a well-worn piece of Wet & Dry, just because the grit is not as aggressive. It is the same size grit though possibly less of it, more rounded or dulled. We don’t say 600 grit paper is now 800 grit paper.

So are these stones 12K or higher, no I don’t think so. Possibly they can “improve”, a 12k edge or used in progression, in place of a 10-12K synthetic finisher.

And to prevent a Food Fight, I am not saying these stones are equivalent to Coticules, only that they are natural, friable stones, as are Coticules. And may or may not improve the finish of a synthetic edge. (It depend on what the definition of the word is, is).

In the end Naturals are Natural… and YMMV.

When I first got into this hobby I'll admit I was a bit hung up on grit ratings and trying to associate a value with natural stones. I gave that up a long time ago as, in the end, it really doesn't matter. I was actually going to mention that perhaps I was just more comfortable on those stones. As far as how he markets his stones.... not really sure what to say about it. I have noticed that he's started to provide a description of how the stone performs when finishing on razors. The thuringians he sells are now including descriptions with words like 'produces a buttery edge' etc. That's probably a more truthful way of selling his product.

Thanks for "digging" Glen, I actually do enjoy how you pick apart my posts to get me to say what I'm actually trying to say. I realize I'm not always the most eloquent writer when my brain is racing!

I really liked Euclid's Sandpaper analogy myself that explains things in a pretty easy to understand way :tu

Pierre
Just as on a razor edge, when you lap a stone you leave stria from what ever abrasive you used to lap with. As you hone on that stria the size of the grooves will impact the edge. As your edge get finer and finer the easier it is to micro chip the edge, negating what you are attempting to achieve, which is a smooth straight edge.

So depending on the stone, more so with hard stones, the finer the finish the smaller the stria/scratch pattern, the smoother the edge will be polished on the razor.

It is much like the sandpaper example, still 600grit paper, but will leave smaller stria. Then you add in technique and pressure and ….

I will admit that Im a total newbie at honing and am really just posting here to help bolster my post count and any information contained in this post could be taken as complete bull sh*t. So continue reading at your own discretion.

I dont really give much thought about the higher "grits" of stones. So far, I've been having good luck with my "PHIG" stone. To my hand, which is trained enough from running against basically every grit of sandpaper you could imagine, it feels much more smooth than my Norton 8k. Does that mean anything? No. The few razors I have honed will shave off a 1k and everything higher in grit is just polishing and refining the edge. To me, the numbers associated with "grits" of stones is more or less there to help me in my progression through honing. I can go straight from a 1k to the Chinese finisher and get the same results, but its going to be a hell of alot slower than going through the progression. I personally think its kind of silly to worry about and get hung up on. But thats just my opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brooksie967

When I first got into this hobby I'll admit I was a bit hung up on grit ratings and trying to associate a value with natural stones.

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Thats why that seller uses fancy names without any provenance and exorbitant grit ratings, his description like Buttery edge etc, have made many buyers bite and he is quite succesfull selling hones. I personally exchange many e-mail with him a while back, and he was not a straight razor user nor did he know anything about honing one, but in the end a real nice guy.

The be-all and end-all of it is, as Glen said, if "the edge produced feels better on your face" then you have the hone for you.

There are three variables here:

1. razor - steel composition and bevel
2. hone
3. your skin and stubble - not anyone else's, yours.

Find what's right for you and you are made. Telling other people that the grit of your natural is so-and-so without any reference to why and you are an idiot. It's a bit like beauty being in the eye of the beholder.

Regards,
Neil

Grit is an interesting thing. I think in many people's minds it is a figure that is "set in stone" (pun kinda intended), particularly with synthetics. However, it is merely a measure and any measure is only as good as the measuring device and the (in the case of synthetics) manufacturing techniques.

There's always variability. For the sake of argument, when you buy a 16K synthetic like a Shapton, what you are getting is something the manufacturer rates at that value. Different manufacturers seem to have different scales as well - I did a little analysis a while back on claimed grit ratings and it seems that some manufacturers have different scales - Norton and Shapton for example. It makes it all a bit tricky when using "grit" ratings as the sole comparative criteria between hones.

I do not know this for a fact, but I suspect (in fact logic dictates) that grit ratings are a summary measure - no synthetic stone, no matter how well manufactured, will be uniformly comprised of xK grit particulates uniformly arranged throughout the suspension media. In fact I suspect it is something like a maximum - there is no grit particulate larger than a certain micron size, though again it depends on the manufacturing and quality control processes in place.

The trick is whether any of this variation makes any difference to the outcome - which I don't really think it does with respect to synthetics.

Of course the problems are only exacerbated with naturals - mother nature is not really concerned with control flows and will more often than not throw up variety rather than homogeneity. It's what makes buying naturals that much trickier even within the same "type" (cf Coticules or the various strata of Jnats, for example). There can be no doubt that naturals have a "grit" (by simple definition), but it may not be usefully consistent throughout the stone, and may even vary as honing progresses ("friable grit" stones, for example).

Of course one cannot crush up every natural stone and then measure the maximum grit particulate within it, and so we get "comparative" grit ratings for these stones. People try them and compare them to other stones of (hopefully) "known" grit. Of course, the only way this works is if the reference stone(s) is (are) of known grit, which as I have said above, is theoretically fraught but probably pragmatically sound.

In any event, it is perhaps better to not focus on grit ratings for naturals and instead try to sort them into an order based on outcome. For example, I have often claimed one of my Jnats is around 20-30K since it produces edges comparable to CrOx. It is not incorrect to make that claim. However, it is not a measure based on grit, it is simply a comparison with other, "known" grit honing media. And that's not taking into account the various other ways that a honing medium can impart a "feeling" onto steel, such as grit shape, arrangement, "friability" etc. However, in the end that doesn't really matter - people associate the number with the outcome as a general rule.

So, while I believe natural stones have a "grit" it is for all intents and purposes impossible to determine the magnitude with any accuracy. Instead it needs to be simply placed in a range based on comparisons of use. So when you see a grit claim for a natural the first thought should be about the rater, not the stone. As in, "I wonder what this person is comparing to. I wonder how much experience they have in doing it." And, particularly in the case of vendors of naturals "I wonder what their motivation is in making this claim." Research is your friend here too, as if you do some you may be able to answer another important question when buying or rating a natural: "Does this tie in with what others I trust have claimed for this class of stone?".

James.

Thanks guys, I am not so much hung up with a specific number I suppose, as where to put is when progressing through stones. Thanks for the sand paper example. Perfect! I use worn belts all the time for different things, so that rung my bell right away!

When I first got the purple one, I experimented with it on hundreds of razors. It certainly can produce a nice finish and it can be used with the one stone method. It is definitely not as consistent a finisher as the Naniwa SS 12K and is certainly not a better finisher in my opinion. YMMV which in this case is why so many new people get confused with so much conflicting information.

Escalating post counts do not always correspond with experience.

Have fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brooksie967

Great stones! "As with all Naturals" as everyone here says and you will see over and over again, there is some variation in performance. Maybe I just got a 'good one' but my purple stone from AJ puts a nicer edge on my razors than the 12k naniwa (just my opinion) and I use them as pre-polishers for my jnats now. The "thuringian" which it is not, might slightly improve the edge. Very versatile hones. A few of the very senior guys have used them with great success, especially the purple one. The purple one was also used by Lynn to do the one stone honing, if i recall correctly.

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And advertising is Advertising,

You don’t really think you are going to see that bikini clad girl, at the Carls Jr. drive up window, or "that" beer will make you the Most or even, mildly interesting?

Do you?

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Originally Posted by Lynn

Escalating post counts do not always correspond with experience.

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Ain't that the truth. I've seen a couple people with fairly high post counts that dont seem to know their ass from a hole in the ground on 99% of topics. I guess it comes with the territory on the interwebs where everyone is an expert. Best advice to further elaborate on what you said Lynn, is that most people should take what they read online with a grain of salt. That also goes with people looking at advertising period. :rock:

I know I've said this before in another thread, but at the risk of repeating myself ....... I would suggest a new honer, who is seriously getting into honing as a sport in itself, get a set of nortons, or shaptons, or naniwas and stop there. Not all three brands, just one of the brands that have earned a reputation as a viable set of razor hones. There are others BTW, but I'm naming those I've had hands on experience with.

Learn to hone, get to know those stones. When you feel like you're ready dip your foot into the naturals. Get one, maybe two and stop there. Learn those. Once you feel like you really know them dip your foot in the water again and get something else if you're curiosity is piqued.

Buying hones for the sake of HAD is not the worst thing you could be addicted to, but if you get so many that you are like a guy at a buffet and can't decide what to eat ...... it is easy to get so many you'll be a long time getting to really know any or them or get a systematic method to use them. Just IMHO. :angel:

the way i prepare any piece of slate is with a very worn 325 dmt and then a 4x2 or 6x2 translucent stone. i rub the stones together until i cant see any scratches the better the stones finish the better it will preform.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eleblu05

the way i prepare any piece of slate is with a very worn 325 dmt and then a 4x2 or 6x2 translucent stone. i rub the stones together until i cant see any scratches the better the stones finish the better it will preform.

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Ok, can someone elaborate on a "well worn" DMT 325? Im not too thrilled about having to constantly buy sandpaper and lapping on glass. And if the 325 is the starting point for lapping, what would be another good alternative to maintain a flat surface on an already lapped stone?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TexasShaver

Ok, can someone elaborate on a "well worn" DMT 325? Im not too thrilled about having to constantly buy sandpaper and lapping on glass. And if the 325 is the starting point for lapping, what would be another good alternative to maintain a flat surface on an already lapped stone?

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On a lapped stone i use a credit card size dmt 325 or 600 just to clean up before use and also to create slurry if wanted, easier to use the the 8x3 DMT, i keep that one for lapping stone and it is well worn for sure from use and abuse lapping multiple stone and sharpening different items.All Dmt's need breaking in period they are quite agressive at first.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TexasShaver

Ok, can someone elaborate on a "well worn" DMT 325? Im not too thrilled about having to constantly buy sandpaper and lapping on glass. And if the 325 is the starting point for lapping, what would be another good alternative to maintain a flat surface on an already lapped stone?

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If you don't want to use sandpaper or loose grits on glass. A diamond plate is a good option be it DMT or Atoma.
If you don't hone much, an already flat 4k stone can somewhat maintain an 8k stone.

a well worn 325 dmt is a dmt that has been used many of times to lap stones and has become worn (not as aggressive as a new 325 dmt)

Is ther much concern of grit contamination in hones in general? Say you used a 1000 grit synthetic to lap a finer stone say 8000. I have a DMT XX coarse for lapping some of my stones I use for knives. I know some guys use a flattening stone, sand paper, or another stone to lap, just wondering if you have noticed any odd random coarse scratches from wee bits of embedded particles from the coarser stone/sandpaper/DMT?

As for HAD, don't really have it bad, but I have wanted a couple natural stones for a while now, and I have no stones for finishing, or razors in general.

I will play with these for a while, then I will likely pick up a set on Naniwa stones bit by bit, as I figure things out.

Depends on the Hone in question, but yes cross contamination is a concern, in fact a probability..

There was a time in the past when using the next lower hone and lapping to crazy high grits was looked at as the correct way to do things, Scrubbing the hones with 3M green pads and running water was also part of the routine to cut down the cross contamination..
I did this religiously for a few years and 1000's of razors,, Used a 1k to lap the 4 k and a 4k to lap the 8k and the 8k to do the 16k etc: etc:
I finally stopped after I bought the Shapton 30k and the stupid expensive DGLP they sell to lap it.. It dawned on me the if the Hone with the highest proved grit available was designed to be lapped with a 325 Diamond Grit plate then everything else that was a lower grit would be fine too :) Haven't looked back since..

I do use different techniques and higher grit for Oil Stones and Barber Hones...

Wait a few minutes and somebody will be along to tell you that if you lap to a higher grit the stone performs better :) Personally I haven't found that to be true with Waterstones

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Originally Posted by PierreR

Is ther much concern of grit contamination in hones in general? Say you used a 1000 grit synthetic to lap a finer stone say 8000. I have a DMT XX coarse for lapping some of my stones I use for knives. I know some guys use a flattening stone, sand paper, or another stone to lap, just wondering if you have noticed any odd random coarse scratches from wee bits of embedded particles from the coarser stone/sandpaper/DMT?

As for HAD, don't really have it bad, but I have wanted a couple natural stones for a while now, and I have no stones for finishing, or razors in general.

I will play with these for a while, then I will likely pick up a set on Naniwa stones bit by bit, as I figure things out.

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I'd spend the extra buck and go for the Chosera variant of the Nanis when you choose to do so. AFAIK they use a different binding material and that could be the reason I like the feel of these better than the regular superstones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

The best was the guy claiming 50k Japanese naturals and within 6 months he changed it to 100k.. You can't really call it wrong, but ya sure can smile..

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LOL...to his/her credit, the stones may have actually contained some 100K (or higher) grit...as a matrix for the 8-12K grit ;)

I am convinced that there is something going on at the edge that is beyond my understanding. Finer is not always better, and not every razor reached the same endpoint with the same methods.

Steel alloying and treatment is a deep subject that few (me included) seem to really comprehend fully. There seems to be little discussion about these subjects on razor forums, and LOTS of focus on the rocks we drag the across.

I'm not suggesting that any razors are bad, but perhaps some are better than others and finishing one if these "others" on some uber stone might just be folly.

I am not sure I am really squeezing everything out of my 8K yet anyway...

Maybe he wasn't referring to the size of the grits but the shear number of them, 100.000 gritty particles.