Norton 4/8 vs. Naniwa 3/8

Hi everyone, I've been honing for years mostly on coticules (plus DMTs for heavy bevel work, and an escher and/or crox for finishing), but am thinking now of getting a synthetic rig to speed things up, now that the house is full of kids and I rarely have time alone to hone in peace...

Any thoughts on the Norton 4/8 vs. the Naniwa 3/8? I'd love to hear from the super-experienced guys like Lynn and Glen, but also more general impressions from anyone who knows these stones well.

In particular, I'm curious about:

(1) is the Naniwa 8K is as fine as the Norton 8K (I read all the time about guys shaving off the Norton 8K, but rarely do I hear about shaving off the Naniwa 8K — everyone always seems to go on to the 12K....)

(2) are pyramids recommended for the Naniwa? Do you have to watch out for a wire edge on the Naniwa like you do on the Norton?

(3) Is the Naniwa 3K as fast as the Norton 4K? Back when I joined SRP guys were setting bevels on Norton 4Ks all the time (usually but not always with a nagura). Is this just as easy and satisfactory on the Naniwa 3K?

Thanks a lot in advance, guys.

I don't have the popular Norton 4k/8K, but I do have a Naniwa 3K/8K and I can say it works very well and you can use it with the pyramid method with no trouble. I did that a lot of times when I started learning honing about ten years ago and it worked just fine.
As for differences between Norton 8K and Naniwa 8K, I guess there should not be any difference, at least at a grit level, but it can also be that one is faster than the other as this depends on the material with which they are made from.
The Naniwa 3K is faster than Norton 4K, however, depending on the condition of the bevel/razor, it may take a lot of time in order to set a bevel with a 3K, of course taking even more with a 4K.
In case you need to set a bevel on a particularly dull blade, I suggest you to buy a 1K synthetic stone which is of course faster and it is particularly useful in setting the initial bevel before passing to a 3/4K stone.

I have used the Naniwa Super stones the Norton set up and the Naniwa Chosera. The experience I have had with all three set-ups is they will put a good edge on your blade. To save time I did go from the Nortone 4k/8K to the Naniwa SS. I purchased all of the Naniwa SS. I use the 1k 3k 5k 8k and 12k when honing. They seemed to be a little faster and not as much time spent inbetween grit. In my opinion and the difference is small the Naniwa cuts faster than the Norton does. The Chosera set up from Naniwa is my new favorite. I have only been using them for about 8 months now. in my opinion they cut even faster than the Naniwa SS does with great results. Your choice. There is just a little money involved gearing up on those stones. Oh yes............ can someone shave off the 8k nanawa's? The answer is yes......I do just that. I will only go to the 12k if I am honing for someone else. The 8k will shave me like a champ, but some like the more refined edge. Best of luck hope my duce helps out. Stoney

Use both now, and have used both for years, in practical application I find both to work excellently

If I were to only own one of them I find the Norton to be more versatile in my hands..
I owned one before I owned any other Waterstones so I learned to use it better :) I find with slurry the 4k is a bit more effective in my hands for bevel sets this could be just because I had to learn to use it when I first started with waterstones :shrug:

I find the Naniwa SS to be very user friendly because of the "Feel" while honing...


Both will do most anything you ask of them, and I would feel well armed using either of them to keep a Comfortable shaving edge for a lifetime (+) of use...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

...I find with slurry the 4k is a bit more effective in my hands...

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You mean you are using the Norton 4K with slurry? That is slurry with a synthetic waterstone?

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Originally Posted by razorguy

You mean you are using the Norton 4K with slurry? That is slurry with a synthetic waterstone?

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I do. I am no seasoned veteran with honing razors, but I generally work a hone starting with slurry and progressively dilute away the slurry with water.

Werks fer me :)

Thank you for your reply. I never use synthetic waterstones with slurry. In my very personal experience, waterstones do not improve with slurry like natural stones do. However, I am not doubting what you say! :)
Just one more question: what do you use to create slurry on a synthetic waterstone? Do you use a natural stone bout or just another waterstone?
In any case, aren't the different grits mixing up therefore creating an undetermined grit?

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Originally Posted by razorguy

waterstones do not improve with slurry like natural stones do.
what do you use to create slurry on a synthetic waterstone?

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I use a well worn DMT 325 on most, however for a true cutting slurry on the Norton 4k I use the Norton Prepstone... There are vids of all this, and threads about much of it too..

http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...rt-slurry.html

http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...iwa-users.html

My response is always the same when people ask about Slurry and Synthetic hones, "You had to learn how to use the Slurry on your Natural didn't you??? How to make it, how to dilute it, how to use it to an advantage" same thing with a Synthetic... You have to take the time to learn how to use it as an advantage.. The good thing is you also don't NEED it, just like a Natural waterstone you can just use clear water and do fine...

I use a DMT to create my slurry.

A person can never prove something doesn't work, but he can prove that it does. ;)

From a results standpoint, the Norton 4K/8K and the Naniwa Super Stone 3K/8K are virtually the same in my opinion. The biggest difference actually is that the Norton 4K has a little more a grainy feeling and the Naniwa Super a softer smoother feeling to me. The 8K's feel a lot alike and behave quite similar although the Naniwa may feel a little softer. That soft is relative as the feedback from the Naniwa's is excellent. I still think more than any other stone, the Naniwa Super Stones feel like they were made for use with straight razors.

If I add the Chosera's into the mix, they also produce very similar results with their biggest difference being a little harder feeling. I use the Chosera 1K the most for setting bevels as I am using pressure at that level and it feels right to me.

I never use slurry's with synthetic stones as the slurry doesn't do anything for me. I have tried it many times, but the consistency in results seems to decrease for me when I do.

The pyramids will work fine with any of these stones, but for me the circle method provides me the most consistency. That may be a little different than for most people as I am using it 4-6 hours a day almost every day of the week. On a razor that is not in bad condition, you can set a bevel with either the Naniwa 3K or Norton 4K.

You can certainly shave off the 8K and it is fun to do this, but I really do like the shave better when I use the 12K as a finish. Every now and then though a razor will fool you and you'll get super great shave off the 8K. An 8K was all I had the first couple years I was learning to hone.

So with all this said, I still think you have to go with what feels the best to you and with the stones that you acquire the most confidence with. Personal preference is really key with honing as with razors. If all I had was either the Norton or the Naniwa Super Stone, I could live with either. I have never found a razor that behaved better with either as well.

Have fun.

Wow, thanks Lynn. Thanks everyone. This site is as awesome now as it was when I joined seven years ago. It's a 24/7 master class...

I think I'll buy the Naniwa 3/8.

Two quick follow-up questions, if I may:

— Any reason to buy a Naniwa 12K if I have an Escher I like? Are they redundant, or is there any value in following one with the other? I don't have HAD. I have the opposite. I want my entire rig — razors and hones — to fit in a large cigar box. Years ago I sold every single hone I didn't rely on when I hone razors, which is approximately every other month...

— My understanding (and my age may be showing :)) has always been that the main point of pyramids was to avoid overhoning on the 8K. As I said, most of my honing has been on coticules which don't really overhone, but I remember early on the Norton guys always talking about how to avoid wire edges from the Norton 8K. Is the Naniwa pretty much immune from that?

Back up, fellas. Are Naniwa stones natural or synthetic? Everywhere I'm looking they stop just short of telling me.

I want to know because I just told someone if he got a 12K Naniwa it would be advisable to get a slurry stone. I don't use slurry on synthetics.

The only stone I ever used slurry on is a 12K Chinese natural stone.

AND what exactly is a coticule? I have really struggled with that term.

Naniwas are synthetic. See Glen and Lynn's posts for two views regarding the use of slurry on synthetics. Coticules are a type of natural razor hone that have been quarried in Belgium for a very long time; they were pretty standard in the heyday of straight razors and are still mined and sold today.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I use a well worn DMT 325 on most, however for a true cutting slurry on the Norton 4k I use the Norton Prepstone... There are vids of all this, and threads about much of it too..

http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...rt-slurry.html

http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...iwa-users.html

My response is always the same when people ask about Slurry and Synthetic hones, "You had to learn how to use the Slurry on your Natural didn't you??? How to make it, how to dilute it, how to use it to an advantage" same thing with a Synthetic... You have to take the time to learn how to use it as an advantage.. The good thing is you also don't NEED it, just like a Natural waterstone you can just use clear water and do fine...

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OK Glen, do you use slurry on a Naniwa 4K for bevel setting because a lower grit would be more ideal for that purpose? Do you use slurry on higher than 4K Naniwa?

I'm learning so much tonight my mind might pop. :popcorn:

If you read the two threads I linked it will give you a good base understanding, after that, there are several theories that come into play...

Which of them are really true I am not sure of.. I have figured out that all this is not necessary, to get a good solid shaving edge, some of this is just fun to mess with...

The first reason I started using slurries at all was that I did not have a 1k, I was still doing restores just like now, the cutting slurry from a Norton 4k and the Norton prep stone let me set bevels on big ole Sheffield wedges in a reasonable amount of time... After that I started messing with slurries on other stones and hones and I just liked the results so I kept after it...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

If you read the two threads I linked it will give you a good base understanding, after that, there are several theories that come into play...

Which of them are really true I am not sure of.. I have figured out that all this is not necessary, to get a good solid shaving edge, some of this is just fun to mess with...

The first reason I started using slurries at all was that I did not have a 1k, I was still doing restores just like now, the cutting slurry from a Norton 4k and the Norton prep stone let me set bevels on big ole Sheffield wedges in a reasonable amount of time... After that I started messing with slurries on other stones and hones and I just liked the results so I kept after it...

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I think your response pretty sums up the reason it's hard to get into specifics. Sometimes you don't have the ideal equipment for a job and need to improvise. Other times you need to do something with a razor you've never done before and take things you have learned here and there and work up a solution.

I'm at a stage where I can do what I need to do and do it well, but when somebody asks you a question about honing with something you have never used you want to check it out.

Same for me. I never use slurry with any synthetic stone as, in my opinion, it does not help that much. However, just my opinion.
I do agree on the fact every razor wants its stone. In my experience, I found out German steel likes the synthetic waterstone better whereas with Sheffield steel I usually get better results with natural stones, Belgian coticule in particular.
As for finishing, I generally use a natural basalt stone, which is considered to have about a 12K grit (like the Chinese stone, although it does not make much sense talking about grits in natural stones) and I find this to work wonders for my skin and quality of shaving.
I also noticed not all the razors seems to like this treatment and some performs better with just a Naniwa 8K finishing, whereas other seems to benefit a lot from the basalt stone.
I also use chromium oxide with a generous stropping and also this works very well for the quality of shaving and for my skin.

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Originally Posted by dylandog

Two quick follow-up questions, if I may:

— Any reason to buy a Naniwa 12K if I have an Escher I like? Are they redundant, or is there any value in following one with the other? I don't have HAD. I have the opposite. I want my entire rig — razors and hones — to fit in a large cigar box. Years ago I sold every single hone I didn't rely on when I hone razors, which is approximately every other month...?

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In regard to "grit", yes they are pretty redundant & since you appear to be a bit of a minimalist I would just stay with the Escher & 8K edge. You may have to append a bit more time on the Escher, but it will work just fine. The reason many of us finish on higher grit synthetics is to reduce the time spent & wear on the natural finisher, using it to do a final refinement instead of removing any of the 8K scratches...make sense?

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Originally Posted by dylandog

— My understanding (and my age may be showing :)) has always been that the main point of pyramids was to avoid overhoning on the 8K. As I said, most of my honing has been on coticules which don't really overhone, but I remember early on the Norton guys always talking about how to avoid wire edges from the Norton 8K. Is the Naniwa pretty much immune from that?

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If you are using Lynn's original pyramid method, you should be just fine. As the other gentlemen stated before me, the "grit" is the same, it's just all about the feel and what you prefer.

If I were to rate the synthetics on feel, Naniwa's feel softest, Norton's feel like a balance between the other two, Shapton GS's feel the hardest. The "grits" are pretty comparable under what limited magnification I have.

In my opinion, if you have an Escher as a finishing hone, there is no need for the 12K. You might experiment finishing with a very light slurry for a few strokes followed by water only and see what your results are. When I use the Escher after the 8K, I just use water and 10 weight of the blade X strokes.

Never had much of a problem with overhoning either on the Norton or Naniwa. If I remember the conversation way back when, people either did a couple of back honing strokes or repeated the 1-3, 1-5 on the Norton to correct the over hone.

Have fun.

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Originally Posted by dylandog

Wow, thanks Lynn. Thanks everyone. This site is as awesome now as it was when I joined seven years ago. It's a 24/7 master class...

I think I'll buy the Naniwa 3/8.

Two quick follow-up questions, if I may:

— Any reason to buy a Naniwa 12K if I have an Escher I like? Are they redundant, or is there any value in following one with the other? I don't have HAD. I have the opposite. I want my entire rig — razors and hones — to fit in a large cigar box. Years ago I sold every single hone I didn't rely on when I hone razors, which is approximately every other month...

— My understanding (and my age may be showing :)) has always been that the main point of pyramids was to avoid overhoning on the 8K. As I said, most of my honing has been on coticules which don't really overhone, but I remember early on the Norton guys always talking about how to avoid wire edges from the Norton 8K. Is the Naniwa pretty much immune from that?

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To the OP, if time is an issue, as you indicated, you truly might consider the Norton 4/8 as they can perpetually soak and need flattening less often than the Nanis, which cannot be soaked long and need frequent light flattening. This is from my personal experience. YMMV :)

From a results standpoint both are good, but in use I like the Norton better. Less clogging, and needs less lapping. While not as good feeling, it isn't bad either, the 8k feels actually very nice.

To echo some of what's been said:

I prefer the feel of the naniwa over the norton at lower grits, but I actually prefer the feel of the norton 8k to the naniwa 8k.

I find the nortons more versatile. I use some slurry sometimes, though I prefer coticule slurry. I hesitate to use slurry on the naniwas because they are soft and I wouldn't want anything to embed itself.

Honing three or less razors, I use the nortons. For more razors, I uses the naniawas. This is because my naniwas have to wet and stabilize before I can lap them - not worth the time for a razor or two. Sure, the norton 4k needs soaking, but that can be done while I set bevels or set up my honing area for the day.

Results wise, I don't think it matters at all.

By the way, dylandog, good to see you on the forum again. I still have that big old Savage I bought from you years ago, and I still love that razor.

I have the same dilemma and this tread has great info! Right now i have king 1000 and 6000 but nothing in between and my Taidea 8000 ... Quite a mix! I use super heavy slurry on the 6000 to compensate for not having a 3000/4000.... So thats why i was in these tread trying to decide between these stones! All i learn was that is personal preference! Lol ! I think i am going with naniwa to keep it Japanese! Lol

One point about the Naniwa stones which may or may not apply to the Nortons is that they have a habit of getting plugged up and need cleaning with a nagura. This could make things more fiddly. When I chose between the two though I went for the SS stones because of the feedback and softness. They may need more lapping, but are easier to lap by all accounts. Also the soak-time on the Norton doesn't recommend it to me. Plus the SS come in a wider range so if I want to plug up any little holes in my progression all the way up to 12k I can do so in the same series.

I also like their little stands! As one vendor so eloquently put it "look at rib, well done!" though that doesn't apply to the combi stones.

Also I don't mean to be impertinent (considering you're trying to choose between Norton and Naniwa) but if space is a factor for you shapton glass stones are probably the tidiest stones around and quite compact. The three-stone sets (one of which is 1k, 3k and 8k) come in a 250 x 80 x 50 container. Soak time is less than the Norton too, and I believe these need lapping even less often though you'll need a diamond plate or stone to lap them with. The fact that this includes a 1k stone would arguably give it a big advantages for bevel setting. That said I don't know how the 8k Shapton compares to the Naniwa/Norton.

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I have the same dilemma and this tread has great info! Right now i have king 1000 and 6000 but nothing in between and my Taidea 8000 ... Quite a mix! I use super heavy slurry on the 6000 to compensate for not having a 3000/4000.... So thats why i was in these tread trying to decide between these stones! All i learn was that is personal preference! Lol ! I think i am going with naniwa to keep it Japanese! Lol

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I have a Taidea 3/8 and I wish these rocks got more notice here. I don't think they're as good as the Norton or Naniwa, but it's not far off and a darn sight cheaper. I picked mine up for around $50! Shame you weren't able to pick this one up as the 3k side would fit in nicely before the 6k side on your king, but both Taidea (if you like their feel) and King/Ice Bear have several other options to plug the 1-6 gap. No doubt you're aware of all of these choices however. One thing I don't often see mentioned though are the 'private brand,' 4/10k Japanese resin stones that look like a steal at 20mm's thickness per side. They are a little narrow to my mind, but no more so than the King combi-stones, and the 4k side would plug the 1-6 gap nicely while the 10k side would - imho - definitely be an improvement on an 8k taidea. I can't vouch for the stone personally though. Might be worth asking around to see if anyone has used it if you're interested. I have dealt with the vendor though (bought a bunch of SS stones, Naguras, and a left-handed Kamisori) and he seems like a good guy.

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Originally Posted by dadsavage

One point about the Naniwa stones which may or may not apply to the Nortons is that they have a habit of getting plugged up and need cleaning with a nagura. This could make things more fiddly. When I chose between the two though I went for the SS stones because of the feedback and softness. They may need more lapping, but are easier to lap by all accounts. Also the soak-time on the Norton doesn't recommend it to me. Plus the SS come in a wider range so if I want to plug up any little holes in my progression all the way up to 12k I can do so in the same series.

I also like their little stands! As one vendor so eloquently put it "look at rib, well done!" though that doesn't apply to the combi stones.

Also I don't mean to be impertinent (considering you're trying to choose between Norton and Naniwa) but if space is a factor for you shapton glass stones are probably the tidiest stones around and quite compact. The three-stone sets (one of which is 1k, 3k and 8k) come in a 250 x 80 x 50 container. Soak time is less than the Norton too, and I believe these need lapping even less often though you'll need a diamond plate or stone to lap them with. The fact that this includes a 1k stone would arguably give it a big advantages for bevel setting. That said I don't know how the 8k Shapton compares to the Naniwa/Norton.



I have a Taidea 3/8 and I wish these rocks got more notice here. I don't think they're as good as the Norton or Naniwa, but it's not far off and a darn sight cheaper. I picked mine up for around $50! Shame you weren't able to pick this one up as the 3k side would fit in nicely before the 6k side on your king, but both Taidea (if you like their feel) and King/Ice Bear have several other options to plug the 1-6 gap. No doubt you're aware of all of these choices however. One thing I don't often see mentioned though are the 'private brand,' 4/10k Japanese resin stones that look like a steal at 20mm's thickness per side. They are a little narrow to my mind, but no more so than the King combi-stones, and the 4k side would plug the 1-6 gap nicely while the 10k side would - imho - definitely be an improvement on an 8k taidea. I can't vouch for the stone personally though. Might be worth asking around to see if anyone has used it if you're interested. I have dealt with the vendor though (bought a bunch of SS stones, Naguras, and a left-handed Kamisori) and he seems like a good guy.

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Thanks for the feedback ! Taidea 8k seems to work but they are grainy! Like my king 6k is smoother to the touch than the taidea 8k.... I could prob pick up a taidea 3k for 25-30$ but all i read in the forum is that the norton and naniwas ss are a better stone... So do i upgrade or just but a 3k taidea!? Thats my dilemma ... Lol! I kinda wanted to get one brand set for the entire process! I have kings 1k and 6k and taidea 8k and my 12k is a Chinese river stone! Crazy mixture of stones

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Thanks for the feedback ! Taidea 8k seems to work but they are grainy! Like my king 6k is smoother to the touch than the taidea 8k.... I could prob pick up a taidea 3k for 25-30$ but all i read in the forum is that the norton and naniwas ss are a better stone... So do i upgrade or just but a 3k taidea!? Thats my dilemma ... Lol! I kinda wanted to get one brand set for the entire process! I have kings 1k and 6k and taidea 8k and my 12k is a Chinese river stone! Crazy mixture of stones

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If you like King whetstones they come in many grits. 800/2000 and 4000 are, I think, available. Not to mention 8k if you ever want to replace your taidea stone, and I think they come in 10k too if you want an alternate finisher and a lineup made up entirely of King stones. I don't think King stones are any more expensive than Taidea stones, and as I understand it they are better for razors. My only criticism of them is they're a little narrow, and I've been told they cut rather slowly. Though you would have the potential for a lineup all from one brand.

Naniwa SS stones do indeed seem to get better feedback than king stones though. That said, they're not that pricey either especially if you don't mind the 10mm stones if you're looking to buy them individually. On the other hand 3/8 Naniwa could arguably replace both your King 1/6 and your Taidea. Possibly even your C12k to boot. Though keeping the 1/6 around might make life easier all the same.