Hone purchase advice

I am looking into buying a Shapton GS 8K or 16K. At this moment, I cannot justify buying the 4K/8K/16K lot that eventually I will own, so I ask your advice on which of these to choose.

I have a few medium grit hones (BBW, Dick.biz's cheap Honyama Quarry Hone with unknown but well-working Nagura) and pastes (red Puma, black Dovo), so I think I got the lower-range sharpening covered. A friend of mine judged one of my edges slightly below 8K, which seems to be the magic number.
I have the feeling I improved my edges since then, if only a little bit. With the grain, I feel very little tug. Against the grain, there's still some, but I'm thinking that may be due to technique.

Now I know that Shaptons perform best as a set, 8K is the magic number and the Shapton GS 16K gives epic edges. Hence, I do not know what is my best option: should I go for the 16K and see if, with a few extra laps, I can still get the best out of it? Or should I play safe and go for the 8K, unsure if it will improve anything?
Myself, I'm thinking of buying the (very cheap) Rozsutec 8K and Shapton 16K. Little info is found on the Rozsutec, other than that it seems to perform quite well.


Any thoughts are well appreciated.

Are you primarily maintaining or sharpening?

Going from an 8k to the 16k is what you are planning on doing long term and if your edges are close to 8k now I would venture to the 16k.

Just my thought pattern here.

A little of both. Once in a while, I enjoy making a rusty blade pretty and giving it new scales. I then go through DMT 325, Shapton GS 1K, BBW or Jnat and then shave. Of course, I will also want to keep all my razors performing well.

Only you really know what you need. If your edges are stellar now, and your getting good to great shaves then get the 16k, if they're not so great, I'd get the 8k now, and get the 16k next go around. If I'm reading correctly, I'd go for the 8k. FWIW, I use the set of GS stones, and I'm very happy with the results. I haven't had any complaints from people I've honed razors for.

IME, Your edges really have to be at the 8k level before you hit the 16k. If your still getting some pulling and tugging. The 16k isn't going to do anything. I'm not familiar with the Rozsutec hone, so I can't comment about going from that to the Shapton 16k. Normally, I like to stay with a set of hones, I.E. Norton, Shapton, Naniwa, etc...from start to finish, but that's me. You can most definitely mix it up. Many times I'll throw in an Escher or Nakayama at the end.

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IME, Your edges really have to be at the 8k level before you hit the 16k

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That is a good thing to know, thank you. I think it is safe for me to say that I am at least at the 6K level, perhaps 8K.

FWIW, here are some pictures comparing the Rozsutec, Charnley Forest and Thuringen: http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...ing-stone.html.

Rozsutec are good stones generally. But extremely hard and usually you'll have to flatten them.
After a 4k or 8k or 10k, a 16k will easily remove the scratches of the previous stone, so, go for the Rozsutec if you would like to, and a finisher. Also, the sigma select 13k is as good as the 16k Shapton, if not finer, so, give it a thought. After that, it's your choice.
And, don't forget, in most cases, money can't substitute practice.

I would consider 1 micron lapping film. I stopped using my naniwa 12 and finish on 1 micron al/ox film on a granite surface plate with a piece of wet paper underneath. The finish is incredible and theres no danger of micro chipping as there is with any hone finisher(naniwa 12, shapton 16 and 30) and Im sure there are others. And for under 75 you have alot of film and a surface plate.

I also like lapping film. Very much. So much, most of the razors I hone for friends are finished on AlOx 1 mic green lapping film, dry. It offers the most consistent results. And, I use my mousepad underneath it. But in the end, you finish your razors on stones, or you don't. Lapping film feels like cheating.

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Originally Posted by Laurens

I am looking into buying a Shapton GS 8K or 16K. At this moment, I cannot justify buying the 4K/8K/16K lot that eventually I will own, so I ask your advice on which of these to choose.

I have a few medium grit hones (BBW, Dick.biz's cheap Honyama Quarry Hone with unknown but well-working Nagura) and pastes (red Puma, black Dovo), so I think I got the lower-range sharpening covered. A friend of mine judged one of my edges slightly below 8K, which seems to be the magic number.
I have the feeling I improved my edges since then, if only a little bit. With the grain, I feel very little tug. Against the grain, there's still some, but I'm thinking that may be due to technique.

Now I know that Shaptons perform best as a set, 8K is the magic number and the Shapton GS 16K gives epic edges. Hence, I do not know what is my best option: should I go for the 16K and see if, with a few extra laps, I can still get the best out of it? Or should I play safe and go for the 8K, unsure if it will improve anything?
Myself, I'm thinking of buying the (very cheap) Rozsutec 8K and Shapton 16K. Little info is found on the Rozsutec, other than that it seems to perform quite well.


Any thoughts are well appreciated.

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I am a BIG fan of the Shaptons. If your razors are shave ready and just need maintenance, I'd get the 8K and 16K without hesitation.

If you plan to set bevels to razors and initially establish them to shave ready status I'd add the Shapton 1K and 4K.

I have a 325 DMT lapping plate that I like. Those are my preferences.

Ive always used water and a tiny bit of dish soap. I definitely have to try it dry then. I just started using film last month or so. I even set my bevels with 1200 dmt. I have norton 220/1k, 4/8k and naniwa 12k. I like the finish off the film the best though, not that a 12k is not a good edge. I dont think its cheating! If they invent a diamond tipped razor that is sharp and smooth as honed blades but doesnt wear out, I would buy it, although I would have too much time on my hands.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

I would consider 1 micron lapping film. I stopped using my naniwa 12 and finish on 1 micron al/ox film on a granite surface plate with a piece of wet paper underneath. The finish is incredible and theres no danger of micro chipping as there is with any hone finisher(naniwa 12, shapton 16 and 30) and Im sure there are others. And for under 75 you have alot of film and a surface plate.

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How many laps are you doing on your 30k to get micro-chipping ????

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

How many laps are you doing on your 30k to get micro-chipping ????

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I dont have a 30k, I have a naniwa 12k. I havent had that problem because Im usually only doing 12-15 light laps. I have heard that over that you may have microchips. The film Ive been doing 40 laps on wet paper and on a granite surface plate.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

I would consider 1 micron lapping film. I stopped using my naniwa 12 and finish on 1 micron al/ox film on a granite surface plate with a piece of wet paper underneath. The finish is incredible and theres no danger of micro chipping as there is with any hone finisher(naniwa 12, shapton 16 and 30) and Im sure there are others. And for under 75 you have alot of film and a surface plate.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

I dont have a 30k, I have a naniwa 12k. I havent had that problem because Im usually only doing 12-15 light laps. I have heard that over that you may have microchips. The film Ive been doing 40 laps on wet paper and on a granite surface plate.

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Your statement makes no sense then... Micro-chipping is simply bad honing and is caused by the hands the stone doesn't cause it...

There are posts on this site saying too many laps on a 10k + hone may cause micro chips. I have not had that problem as I have stayed away from too many laps on the naniwa. Fine hones and micro chips search on this site reveals 142 results.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

There are posts on this site saying too many laps on a 10k + hone may cause micro chips. I have not had that problem as I have stayed away from too many laps on the naniwa. Fine hones and micro chips search on this site reveals 142 results.

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Micro-chipping is simply Bad Honing, and is caused by the hands, the stone isn't at fault.. as you have found by using your Naniwa SS 12k it didn't microchip when you used it correctly.. Same as many who use the Shapton high grits have no issue with micro-chipping..

BTW Lapping flim used incorrectly can cause the same problems, again it is the hands not the medium that causes the issue

Glen,

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Your statement makes no sense then... Micro-chipping is simply bad honing and is caused by the hands the stone doesn't cause it...

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I just went through this with a Naniwa 12k. Don't know yet, if it was my hand or the stone. But I got really bad chips from the stone. There is a looong thread by me with lots of investigation and pictures. If all these stones look like mine, it is well possible that particles are being torn out of the surface that then cause chips. ( this thread )

Two seperate issues, you have Chips, we are talkng Micro-chipping (Or at least I am)..

Yours looked to be from a bad stone or bad lapping, looks like you finally got it worked out too

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Micro-chipping is simply Bad Honing, and is caused by the hands, the stone isn't at fault.. as you have found by using your Naniwa SS 12k it didn't microchip when you used it correctly.. Same as many who use the Shapton high grits have no issue with micro-chipping..

BTW Lapping flim used incorrectly can cause the same problems, again it is the hands not the medium that causes the issue

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I am with Glenn on this.

Film is interesting... it tends to be faster than most hones. I keep some
Woodcraft 15/5/0.3 micron film handy for difficult rescues. The three seem
like big grit jumps but they work well. A little bit of soapy water keeps them
cutting a long time. For the one or two razor rescue this is small money
well spent. A honemaster will want a good pile of water hones.

Once the bevel is set and the razor shaving any flat lapped 10k-16k hone will maintain
the edge. The Na12K is a bargain and might be the only hone a "shaver" needs to
keep a shave ready razor shaving. Shaptons work with little fuss.

The Norton 4k/8k combo is a work horse and plays well with the Na12k ....

For me most micro chipping seems to be related to my heavy hand setting the bevel
with coarse hones especially DMTs. Then insufficient time with middle grit like 4K before
jumping to 8k or a finishing hone. All near 1K hones are not alike.... My Norton 1K
can be improved on a lot by my 2K Green Brick. or a Shapton 1k hone. Film at 15 micron
is a darn fine 1K bevel setter equivalent and new 5 micron film is a lot faster than a Norton 4k.

I might note that for me an edge can be too sharp for shaving. I need to be cautious with 0.3
micron film... it can get me a Feather like too sharp harsh edge. Quality hones in the 10k-16k
seem to differ more in how I use them than the grit. The best value seems to be the NaSS12k
especially when paired with a Norton 4k/8k combo... My Chosera 10K and Shapton are
different but do not seem to shave better or worse, your mileage may differ.

And NO I did not need all these different hones. Some day I will sell -- no, no no... I have HAD too
bad.

Ive recently started using film a month or so ago. I find that the finish with the 1 micron film is extremely sharp but smooth. I do 1200 dmt(well broken in) and 3 micron then 1 micron on granite with wet copy paper under then .5 crox on linen. Great edges and they are consistent. Im only honing since October. Im sure any hone made for razors is capable of putting a superb edge on. Theres a million ways to skin a cat. Ive gotten great edges off a Norton 8k. Then you hear about the 12k, then you buy it. The film was a no brainer, 30 bucks for 3 and 1 micron film. I tried the .3 micron on granite and that was almost like using a shavette.

Glen,

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Two seperate issues, you have Chips, we are talkng Micro-chipping (Or at least I am)..

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sorry, my bad. Thought those were quite micro :) and simply thought it's one term.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

...Yours looked to be from a bad stone or bad lapping, looks like you finally got it worked out too

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Yes, got one ready, thanks. I'm still not confident, though. I might return it and see with another one, if it has been this single stone or, if it is the way they are made and extra caution needs to be taken.

Yes sir I know that. I had an old wostenholm 5/8 I honed 4 x. The first three times, the shave was harsh. The fourth trip to the hone I stopped at the 8k norton and crox and linen. And it shaved great. I used the 1 micron film the first three hones, might be too fine for old sheffield steel. Anyway it shaves well now. Ive used film for quite a few older solingens and sheffields. This one may be tempered softer.